eLobby to repeal the Hunting Act

[Scully]

Game is encouraged to keep within a certain population. And as people who shoot pests we might be tasked with 'wiping out' a species in a local area but we both know we don't do that. We ensure a population of say rabbits is kept under control but also maintained. Would you be happy using ferrets at this time of year? Wiping out a burrow of kittens? I might shoot the odd one but I know to largely leave them alone at this time of year. That is conservation. And it is no different to fox hunting. Incidently I have done a video on this subject.

 

 

We ensure a population of rabbits is controlled to the extent the landowner doesn't complain, but they're not maintained. We use ferrets whenever necessary regardless of the time of year and have no qualms about wiping out a burrow of kittens. This is what pest control is about, it isn't conservation.

As far as I'm aware foxes are classed as vermin and not game, and personally I have seen more damage done to stock by corvids than by foxes, but if the landowner wants them gone then they're gone.

We recently killed 11 cubs in the space of a couple of hours; that's not conservation nor maintained, and totally the opposite of what you would do to game.

I have nothing against fox hunting with hounds, I really don't. It doesn't appeal to me but I wouldn't stop anyone doing it if that's what they wanted to do, but those who do need to get their story straight as to why they feel it necessary as it isn't me they need to convince.

Like I said, there were no foxes in Australia until deliberately introduced for 'sport', by.....guess who? . So which is it, sport or pest control? Give it some thought cos I'll pick holes in all your arguments.

[compo90]

Have a look at this video from my area of the world .the antis would have you belive it's all toffs and redcoats not a lot of that where I am from just farmers wanting to use the right number of hounds to do the job properly in this terrain.

 

http://fedwfp.co.uk

It beggars belief that here on a country sports forum people don't realise everything we have lost or had affected.

 

The "I won't be signing its cruel" idiots are as bad as the labour (and other) mp's who see hunting with dogs as purely the pursuit of foxes with large hound packs and affluent public school educated toffs on expensive horses.

Don't forget one labour mp said after the ban "that's one in the eye for the toffs in red coats" showing the ignorance and class war mentality.

 

This is the point I keep trying to make, the farmers packs like you highlighted here, the small gun packs..... The independant people with 4 hounds.....the lurcher lads.....the terrier men......the pest controller with a lurcher.....all affected by the ban and all doing it for pest control, shooting isn't always safe, trapping can be fraught with problems......it should be an option for pest control, maybe with something like the general licence where you show why its the best option.......I.e. Public access meaning traps can be damaged, too close to housing meaning shooting can alarm folk.... And its not just foxes, mink, grey squirrels even deer and hares sometimes again a dog can be invaluable.

[compo90]

sorry guys, i wont be signing.

dont agree with it and never have. any type of pest control is best done with minimal suffering inflicted upon said pest imho.

 

chasing a fox with a pack of dogs is not, in my opinion, right or humane.

 

and while i appreciate that some are voting to form a sort of unity, as to possibly protect themsleves in the long run, my own sense of what i feel is right and wrong is more important to me.

 

best of luck to those who wish to see it repealled though, each to their own and all that.

Read my last post, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water

 

The baby being pest control of mink and farmers hound packs etc..... With the bath water that is mounted fox hunts

[panoma1]

Foxes are a pest their numbers need to be controlled, this is called pest control.....how they are controlled is in my view up to the individual as long as it is quick and humane by whatever method your conscience allows? However there is no shame in enjoying it!

People also enjoy ratting, pigeon shooting etc,.......is this pest control or sport?..........well it's both.........it is neccesary pest control with the enjoyment element called "sport"...........unless employed to do so, if we didn't enjoy it why would we do it?

The antis will usually reluctantly tolerate pest control where they disagree is the enjoyment element!

All fieldsports participants be it shooter, trapper, angler or hunter enjoy the hunt, the death of the hunted is the end result (sometimes) I don't enjoy this part but as long as it's quick and certain I have no problem with it! If anyone has.........don't do it!

 

The death of the pest is the pest control the hunt is the sport.....

[compo90]

And can one of the anti's here please explain to me the difference between my dog chasing, catching and killing a rabbit and the same dog chasing, catching and killing a grey squirrel?

 

Both pests in certain circumstance, in fact as a non native highly damaging to natural fauna and flora the grey squirrel could be considered a far worse pest endangering our native reds...

 

But me taking a squirrel in such a way is illegal but not so the rabbit?

[CharlieT]

 

We recently killed 11 cubs in the space of a couple of hours; that's not conservation nor maintained, and totally the opposite of what you would do to game.

I have nothing against fox hunting with hounds, I really don't. It doesn't appeal to me but I wouldn't stop anyone doing it if that's what they wanted to do, but those who do need to get their story straight as to why they feel it necessary as it isn't me they need to convince.

Like I said, there were no foxes in Australia until deliberately introduced for 'sport', by.....guess who? . So which is it, sport or pest control? Give it some thought cos I'll pick holes in all your arguments.

Quite simply it's both.

 

It's rather like those who shoot vermin who say they don't do it for sport or fun but shoot because they need to control vermin for "their" farmer. Absolute tosh, they shoot because they enjoy doing so, it is their sport which they try to justify by saying it's done for alturistic reasons. It just happens that the spin off from one mans sport and enjoyment happens to benefit another, in this case the person with a vested interest in the product of the land, be that sheep, game shooting or a neat and tidy golf course.

 

Why is hunting with hounds both ?, well quite simply, all those who follow do so because they enjoy it. It's their sport, pastime, call it what you will. However, one must not forget that those landowners who do not hunt but welcome hunts onto their land do so because the hunt find and kill foxes. They provide a benefit to the landowner, just like a shooter, and by doing so are welcomed. Hunting with hounds, like shooting, is done for sport but our sport just happens to provide the benefit of culling vermin.

 

Fieldsports are all part of the fabric of the countryside where varying peoples sport and enjoyment just happens to provide a benefit. Unfortunatly, the encroachment of the urban sanitised mentality into all parts of the countryside causes the field sports enthusiast to feel the need to justify their sport by making silly statements such as " I don't do it because I enjoy it, I do it for the farmer" and "my sport is not as cruel as his", it is these silly statements that do us no good and serve no purpose.

[brett1985]

Read my last post, you are throwing the baby out with the bath water

 

The baby being pest control of mink and farmers hound packs etc..... With the bath water that is mounted fox hunts

Compo, you can bitch, complain and throw insults all you like but you wont over rule the fact that i dont agree with fox hunting...

its a personal thing. Nothing to do with class war or 'toffs in red jackets' as some put it. Hell, i have friends that still ride with the hunts, but it doesnt change the fact that i dont agree with it.

as i explained in my previous post, each to their own as to what they want to do, but dont expect me to sign a petition to make it legal for them to do it when i dont agree with it!

[compo90]

Compo, you can bitch, complain and throw insults all you like but you wont over rule the fact that i dont agree with fox hunting...

its a personal thing. Nothing to do with class war or 'toffs in red jackets' as some put it. Hell, i have friends that still ride with the hunts, but it doesnt change the fact that i dont agree with it.

as i explained in my previous post, each to their own as to what they want to do, but dont expect me to sign a petition to make it legal for them to do it when i dont agree with it!

Again either you missed the point or I didn't explain myself well enough

 

Its not just about mounted packs.

 

Where do you stand on my whippet catching a grey squirrel?

[Scully]

Quite simply it's both.

 

It's rather like those who shoot vermin who say they don't do it for sport or fun but shoot because they need to control vermin for "their" farmer. Absolute tosh, they shoot because they enjoy doing so, it is their sport which they try to justify by saying it's done for alturistic reasons. It just happens that the spin off from one mans sport and enjoyment happens to benefit another, in this case the person with a vested interest in the product of the land, be that sheep, game shooting or a neat and tidy golf course.

 

Why is hunting with hounds both ?, well quite simply, all those who follow do so because they enjoy it. It's their sport, pastime, call it what you will. However, one must not forget that those landowners who do not hunt but welcome hunts onto their land do so because the hunt find and kill foxes. They provide a benefit to the landowner, just like a shooter, and by doing so are welcomed. Hunting with hounds, like shooting, is done for sport but our sport just happens to provide the benefit of culling vermin.

 

Fieldsports are all part of the fabric of the countryside where varying peoples sport and enjoyment just happens to provide a benefit. Unfortunatly, the encroachment of the urban sanitised mentality into all parts of the countryside causes the field sports enthusiast to feel the need to justify their sport by making silly statements such as " I don't do it because I enjoy it, I do it for the farmer" and "my sport is not as cruel as his", it is these silly statements that do us no good and serve no purpose.

At last, someone who tells it like it is.

I shoot because I enjoy it, if I didn't enjoy it I simply wouldn't do it; it's that simple. No one is forcing me to do it. I'm assuming followers of hounds do it for the same reason.

Now all the fox hunting crowd have to do is convince the general public and the politicians that it is acceptable.

The only part I can't agree entirely on is the part that hunt packs are 'welcomed'. By many perhaps, but certainly not all. I know of two landowners in the Lune valley who stopped the hunt coming onto their land many years ago as they were sick and tired of the damage caused. We shoot foxes on that land now.

[compo90]

At last, someone who tells it like it is.

I shoot because I enjoy it, if I didn't enjoy it I simply wouldn't do it; it's that simple. No one is forcing me to do it. I'm assuming followers of hounds do it for the same reason.

Now all the fox hunting crowd have to do is convince the general public and the politicians that it is acceptable.

The only part I can't agree entirely on is the part that hunt packs are 'welcomed'. By many perhaps, but certainly not all. I know of two landowners in the Lune valley who stopped the hunt coming onto their land many years ago as they were sick and tired of the damage caused. We shoot foxes on that land now.

Again mounted packs and fox hunts....

 

There is far more to the hunting act than mounted packs.

 

And that's the shame, there are exceptions I.e. The gamekeeper exemption for terrierwork ...... But there should be more, and I am on about pest control paid or amateur, me using my whippet to catch a grey squirrel is illegal.

Why is that different to the same dog taking a rabbit or rat?

 

There are lots of other sensible hunting practices now illegal because of the hunting act.

 

I.E. Mink

[JDog]

brett1985

 

Just for clarification purposes could you please explain why you are so against traditional fox hunting?

 

Not many of my shooting friends are fox hunters but none of them are against it. If they were they wouldn't be invited to shoot by me. Fieldsports, or at least certain aspects of them are controversial at the best of times and those participating need to support all others who indulge in them. Have you ever heard a fox hunter say that shot gun shooting of live creatures is cruel?

[wymberley]

brett1985

 

Just for clarification purposes could you please explain why you are so against traditional fox hunting?

I was under the distinct impression that Brett had clearly stated that his reasons were of a personal nature.

 

Have you ever heard a fox hunter say that shot gun shooting of live creatures is cruel?

I simply can not believe that you said that. Please see Posts #43 and 46.

[JDog]

wymberley

 

Are you replying for brett1985? You ought to explain your relationship if you are.

 

I note that posts 43 and 46 are yours and therefore the value and use of them to make your point is strictly limited.

[compo90]

There was some incorrect smoke blowing in the run up to the act being brought in. There was criticism of shooting by some.

 

Some hunters did overly criticise shooting, there was some tests done about the humanity of shooting.

 

However as I keep trying to highlight a lot more has suffered and been lost that just fox hunting with packs.

 

And do two wrongs make a right?

 

I feel we are stronger together and need some unity, if the act is repealled a lot of pressure would leave shooting

 

Given the above points I can not understand anyone who shoots, fishes, ferrets or does any field sport who wouldn't support hunting.

 

And the anti hunters amongst us haven't andwered what's the difference between my whippet taking a rabbit and a grey squirrel? That's what's wrong with the act

[wymberley]

wymberley

 

Are you replying for brett1985? You ought to explain your relationship if you are.

I have no relationship with Brett. I do, however, respect his right to have a personal opinion, whether or not this is a matter of conscience - I know not - and free from pressure to explain that opinion which, as is his right, he wishes to remain personal.

 

I note that posts 43 and 46 are yours and therefore the value and use of them to make your point is strictly limited.

I could well agree except for one minor little detail. That being that what I've said is factual and not an opinion. I have just been made aware of Compo 90's post which bears out what I've said.

Compo 90,

I have a great deal of empathy with your point of view and particularly so that your activities were included in with the overall ban on hunting with hounds 'hounds'.

[compo90]

Compo 90,

I have a great deal of empathy with your point of view and particularly so that your activities were included in with the overall ban on hunting with hounds 'hounds'.

Thanks and its not just my activities.

 

The way I see it they threw the baby away with the bath water.

 

I can see how big mounted hunts with the pomp and ceremony, the affluent and established cliques etc... Can be distasteful and unwelcomed, the whole affair is so far from a farmers pack in the hills as to be uncomparable.

 

I feel perhaps is now time for some compromise, allow some form of general licence scenario to allow proper pest control to be done using dogs, mink, squirrels and foxes can all on occasions be controlled more humanely and sensitively with a dog or two......

 

That's the baby (pest control) that got thrown out with the bath water (mounted large hunts) and is the one that's easier to prosecute and prey on

[Scully]

My local MP is Tory Rory Stewart; haven't heard a thing from him and it's been well over a week now.

[brett1985]

brett1985

 

Just for clarification purposes could you please explain why you are so against traditional fox hunting?

as previously stated, i find it inhumane and inefficient. there are much simpler ways of getting rid of foxes without the need to chase it down and eventually pull it apart. couple that with the fact that id said fox goes to ground, its then dug up and chucked to the dogs.

whatever way you look at it, my opinion is that its wrong and there is no respect shown towards the animal.

its funny how a large majority of those who support fox hunting are the first in line to say that we should despatch winged pigeons and rabbits with great haste as to avoid prolonging the suffering, and then proudly shout that they support fox hunting...

 

Not many of my shooting friends are fox hunters but none of them are against it. If they were they wouldn't be invited to shoot by me.

why? for having a different opinion? cant see that many people would want to shoot with you if thats the way you treat them...

Fieldsports, or at least certain aspects of them are controversial at the best of times and those participating need to support all others who indulge in them. Have you ever heard a fox hunter say that shot gun shooting of live creatures is cruel? no, because that would be extremely hypocritical now wouldnt it? it seems that its only the shooters that are brazen enough to be THAT hypocritical...

[Imperfection]

My local MP replied.

 

Dear Mr Imperfection

Thank you for contacting me about the Hunting Act 2004.

I appreciate the strong feelings that many people have on this issue.

The Prime Minister has said that a majority Conservative Government will give Parliament the opportunity to repeal the Hunting Act on a free vote, with a government bill in government time.

In the event of such a vote, I would vote to repeal it. In my judgement the Act does nothing to protect wild animals and, in many cases, is actually detrimental to animal welfare when other methods of control are deployed, several of which can be indiscriminate.

Thank you again for contacting me on this issue.

Yours sincerely
Jonathan Djanogly

[CharlieT]

 

brett1985

 

Just for clarification purposes could you please explain why you are so against traditional fox hunting?

as previously stated, i find it inhumane and inefficient. there are much simpler ways of getting rid of foxes without the need to chase it down and eventually pull it apart. couple that with the fact that id said fox goes to ground, its then dug up and chucked to the dogs.

whatever way you look at it, my opinion is that its wrong and there is no respect shown towards the animal.

its funny how a large majority of those who support fox hunting are the first in line to say that we should despatch winged pigeons and rabbits with great haste as to avoid prolonging the suffering, and then proudly shout that they support fox hunting...

 

Not many of my shooting friends are fox hunters but none of them are against it. If they were they wouldn't be invited to shoot by me.

why? for having a different opinion? cant see that many people would want to shoot with you if thats the way you treat them...

Fieldsports, or at least certain aspects of them are controversial at the best of times and those participating need to support all others who indulge in them. Have you ever heard a fox hunter say that shot gun shooting of live creatures is cruel? no, because that would be extremely hypocritical now wouldnt it? it seems that its only the shooters that are brazen enough to be THAT hypocritical...

 

Brett

 

Whilst I have no issues with anyone who does not support hunting, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view, I would ask you not to fall in to the trap of believing all the properganda put out by the anti brigade.

 

Despite what you have been led to believe, foxes are killed instantly by hounds, much like a terrier kills a rat. Foxhounds are large strong animals, bred over a centurary to do their job efficiently and clinically.

The same with foxes which have gone to ground and dug to. The fox would have been shot dead as soon as it was found and only then would the carcase be given to hounds to break up. This may be objectionable to some but it does reward hounds for their endevour.

It must also be remembered that digging foxes out is only lawful for the preservation of gamebirds, so, should the ban be repealed, very little digging out will happen.

 

Lastly, efficiency does not come into the equation, hunting is a sport and should be viewed as such. However, having said that, in many remote areas, it is virtually impossible to control foxes in any other way. A pack of hounds can efficiantly cover many thousands of inaccesable acres in a day, impossible on foot.

 

On our moorland during lambing I used to be able to call out the local hunt to deal with problem foxes, now, since the ban, I just have to put up with lamb losses as there is no practical or viable way of controling them. So I suffer, or should I say my sheep do, just because people who dont live and work at the sharp end perceive hunting as a sport of Toffs and that killing for sport is cruel and objectionable.

[Penelope]

Well said.

 

Brett

 

Whilst I have no issues with anyone who does not support hunting, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view, I would ask you not to fall in to the trap of believing all the properganda put out by the anti brigade.

 

Despite what you have been led to believe, foxes are killed instantly by hounds, much like a terrier kills a rat. Foxhounds are large strong animals, bred over a centurary to do their job efficiently and clinically.

The same with foxes which have gone to ground and dug to. The fox would have been shot dead as soon as it was found and only then would the carcase be given to hounds to break up. This may be objectionable to some but it does reward hounds for their endevour.

It must also be remembered that digging foxes out is only lawful for the preservation of gamebirds, so, should the ban be repealed, very little digging out will happen.

 

Lastly, efficiency does not come into the equation, hunting is a sport and should be viewed as such. However, having said that, in many remote areas, it is virtually impossible to control foxes in any other way. A pack of hounds can efficiantly cover many thousands of inaccesable acres in a day, impossible on foot.

 

On our moorland during lambing I used to be able to call out the local hunt to deal with problem foxes, now, since the ban, I just have to put up with lamb losses as there is no practical or viable way of controling them. So I suffer, or should I say my sheep do, just because people who dont live and work at the sharp end perceive hunting as a sport of Toffs and that killing for sport is cruel and objectionable.

[garygreengrass]

Done

[brett1985]

Brett

 

Whilst I have no issues with anyone who does not support hunting, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and view, I would ask you not to fall in to the trap of believing all the properganda put out by the anti brigade.

 

Despite what you have been led to believe, foxes are killed instantly by hounds, much like a terrier kills a rat. Foxhounds are large strong animals, bred over a centurary to do their job efficiently and clinically.

The same with foxes which have gone to ground and dug to. The fox would have been shot dead as soon as it was found and only then would the carcase be given to hounds to break up. This may be objectionable to some but it does reward hounds for their endevour.

 

It must also be remembered that digging foxes out is only lawful for the preservation of gamebirds, so, should the ban be repealed, very little digging out will happen.

 

Lastly, efficiency does not come into the equation, hunting is a sport and should be viewed as such. However, having said that, in many remote areas, it is virtually impossible to control foxes in any other way. A pack of hounds can efficiantly cover many thousands of inaccesable acres in a day, impossible on foot.

 

On our moorland during lambing I used to be able to call out the local hunt to deal with problem foxes, now, since the ban, I just have to put up with lamb losses as there is no practical or viable way of controling them. So I suffer, or should I say my sheep do, just because people who dont live and work at the sharp end perceive hunting as a sport of Toffs and that killing for sport is cruel and objectionable.

i appreciate what your saying, and thank you for actually being able to put forward a reasonable argument, but i'm not going by what i have seen via the media. i have seen this first hand before the ban came in to effect. and dont get me wrong, im fully aware that not all hunts are the same, but it does go on.

with regards to digging the fox out, the issue i have isnt with the shooting and then giving to the dogs (although the one i was present to watch wasnt shot...) its the time it takes to dig the fox out. it was around 25 mins, all the while the fox is left running/sitting scared.

 

in my mind, there is definitive line between pest control and sport. i accept that pigeon/rabbit/fox shooting holds a certain amount of pleasure in the action of participating, and that the argument can be made that anyone who who partakes in the afformentioned is a hypacrite for suggesting that fox hunting as a sport is wrong.

 

unfortunately, due to previous experiences, i cannot persuade myself to sign something that i dont agree with.

 

should someone come up with a petition to ammend the hunting ban so that it does not stop farmers and landowners from singly running a small pack of dogs on pest/vermin species for the sole purpose of genuine pest control, then i would be more inclined to sign it.

[allthegearandnoidea]

Just got this reply from my MP, Richard Benyon (Conservative)

 

Thank you for contacting me about the Hunting Act 2004.

 

I appreciate the strong feelings that many people have on this issue.

 

I am aware that, in the last Parliament, a cross-party alliance of MPs and farmers’ groups called for an amendment to the Hunting Act to allow more than two dogs to be used to flush out a fox. The Prime Minister supported this amendment, but there was no agreement between the governing Coalition parties, which would have been necessary for it to be brought before the House.

 

The Prime Minister has said that a majority Conservative Government will give Parliament the opportunity to repeal the Hunting Act on a free vote, with a government bill in government time.

 

In the event of such a vote, I would vote to repeal it. In my judgement the Act has done nothing to protect wild animals and, in many cases, has actually been detrimental to animal welfare when other methods of control are deployed, several of which can be indiscriminate.

 

I do appreciate that many people have strongly held views about hunting. I respect this and that is why the issue has been subject to a free vote for many years.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Richard Benyon MP

[overandunder2012]

cant see the act being repelled only a small minority support hunting with dogs the public in general think its a disgusting practice for hooray henrys so i suspect most mp's will not risk being found to vote in favor.