rodp Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 What about the 'normal' male & female parents that abuse alcohol and fall around the place or the fast food families that fill their kids with all manner of processed muck or the fiery and tempestuous parents that knock lumps out of each other or the serial benefits abusers who never venture from the couch, the fanatical religious, etc? I appreciate what you are getting at in your post, but the truth is there isn't a 'normal', there are a million variations on a theme and the most well adjusted and balanced kids and adults have a wide exposure to all sorts of things. Whether it is a two dad family, a two mum family, a single parent or a mum and dad it is what they teach and promote to their kids that really counts. If they promote an attitude of tolerance, respect, good manners, individualism and encourage the desire to contribute to greater society and play their part that is all that really counts. Here we go, the" what if's", the "what abouts". You get good and bad in all families, so isn't it advisable to at least do what you can to start a childs life off as stable as you can ? Why put more pressure on a child? I would imagine it's hard enough to sort out a stable family for adoption / fostering so why add to the pressure by placing a child with two dads or two moms. Imagine the questions at school, you wish that torment on a toddler ............ I don't, but perhaps I care more about the children than looking to be a modern man on a forum I don't know if you've twigged it yet but mammals have both male and female, we haven't evolved this way just so the male of the species has something good looking to walk around town with. It's called evolution and natural selection has proven this to be the most suitable means of reproducing. You don't see many all male pairs of animals with pups do you, or all female come to that. So why would you deliberately place an impressionable child in an unnatural environment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Here we go, the" what if's", the "what abouts". You get good and bad in all families, so isn't it advisable to at least do what you can to start a childs life off as stable as you can ? Why put more pressure on a child? I would imagine it's hard enough to sort out a stable family for adoption / fostering so why add to the pressure by placing a child with two dads or two moms. Imagine the questions at school, you wish that torment on a toddler ............ I don't, but perhaps I care more about the children than looking to be a modern man on a forum I don't know if you've twigged it yet but mammals have both male and female, we haven't evolved this way just so the male of the species has something good looking to walk around town with. It's called evolution and natural selection has proven this to be the most suitable means of reproducing. You don't see many all male pairs of animals with pups do you, or all female come to that. So why would you deliberately place an impressionable child in an unnatural environment? I agree that we have not adapted biologically and that we are still male and female. As a product of a single sex private education then farming, i was as homophobic as you could be, same with women vicars. No way Pedro would i be supportive of those. I grew older, wiser and realised that as long as it was between a loving couple and didn't involve me, what is it to do with me. Given the choice, i would like to see children placed with heterosexual couples but as several have pointed out, there are enough of these couples out there with car crash lives so actually, the child is better in an environment where it is loved and cared for. Strange that most child molesters seem to be heterosexual isn't it.... As always, life is not black and white which is the other thing i discovered as I grew older. Right, off to finish me lawn! Edited July 3, 2015 by keg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 I agree that we have not adapted biologically and that we are still male and female. As a product of a single sex private education then farming, i was as homophobic as you could be, same with women vicars. No way Pedro would i be supportive of those. I grew older, wiser and realised that as long as it was between a loving couple and didn't involve me, what is it to do with me. Given the choice, i would like to see children placed with heterosexual couples but as several have pointed out, there are enough of these couples out there with car crash lives so actually, the child is better in an environment where it is loved and cared for. Strange that most child molesters seem to be heterosexual isn't it.... As always, life is not black and white which is the other thing i discovered as I grew older. Right, off to finish me lawn! Are they, how would you know what tendencies they have. For a male to abuse young males I would assume they have far from heterosexual tendencies. As for the other point you make, why then put children with "car crash life" couples? Why would you do that? And of course you assume gay couples lead a fairy tale life of cuddles and kisses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston72 Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 This thread could turn into another coming out thread . I have no problems with homosexuals as long as it is in the closet were it belongs . Just my opinion . We are all entitled to an opinion . Harnser maybe you protesteth too much sweety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston72 Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Just a quick question,If any of the anti gay on here can answer it, If you have children and one of them turned out to be gay, What would you do? Disown them or accept their choices? Oh and please don't say it would never happen because I'm afraid it's out of your control I was going to put a similar post up myself,very well put Shaun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Here we go, the" what if's", the "what abouts". You get good and bad in all families, so isn't it advisable to at least do what you can to start a childs life off as stable as you can ? Why put more pressure on a child? I would imagine it's hard enough to sort out a stable family for adoption / fostering so why add to the pressure by placing a child with two dads or two moms. Imagine the questions at school, you wish that torment on a toddler ............ I don't, but perhaps I care more about the children than looking to be a modern man on a forum I don't know if you've twigged it yet but mammals have both male and female, we haven't evolved this way just so the male of the species has something good looking to walk around town with. It's called evolution and natural selection has proven this to be the most suitable means of reproducing. You don't see many all male pairs of animals with pups do you, or all female come to that. So why would you deliberately place an impressionable child in an unnatural environment? Rod, I'm not trying to be argumentative and certainly not trying to promote any sort of image of modernity on a forum, I have no interest in trying to fit myself into any particular style or pigeonhole for the benefit of others, in fact I find people who subscribe to a certain image because they think it is the popular thing to do are particularly dull and uninteresting. It wasn't an argument of what if's and what abouts, what I was describing is just simple real life. Without any doubt the most common family group is a heterosexual couple and their children and as it is the most common then we describe that as 'normal', but the truth is there are so many different influences good and bad that shape how a kid grows up and there really isn't a 'normal'. I could argue that you are just trotting out the same old arguments of 'what about that kid at school with same sex parents?' or nature doesn't let two males or two females procreate, but then again nature doesn't have IVF, maternity wards, synthesised medicines, TV's, internet forums, etc. We have moved beyond what nature has provided thanks to our ability to invent so why should that advancement not include other life elements. As I said, I can understand your argument and I used to believe the same thing, but as long as we promote a false belief of idyll then we also promote intolerance and closed mindedness. As for the argument of 'what about kids at school' sadly kids will always identify something that is not normal to them and focus upon that whether that is a kid with a visible birthmark, bad hair, weird eyes, big nose, fat, thin, short tall, ugly, poor, rich or whatever. Life is not equal and it is certainly not fair so trying to promote some sort of perceived equality through an artificial construct of normality is an exercise in failure. The best possible way we can combat people who seek to exploit differences in a bad way, bullies, is to try and encourage people to reasonably challenge perception and stereotypes otherwise we simply breed ignorance and that is the food for bullies. My measure is so long as people are not deliberately trying to exploit, hurt or oppress others then I really don't care. If people are offended or their sensitivities hurt through things like pride parades then they deserve all the misery that they bring upon themselves. Edited July 3, 2015 by grrclark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Disown them or accept their choices? I would say most would accept their choice, that doesn't mean they would like it or suddenly feel the need to go to gay pride parades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 I really can't believe we have gone fifty eight posts on something that I thought everybody had stopped bothering about years ago. What difference does it make as long as people are happy and don't live in fear of being beaten up or sacked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodp Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Rod, I'm not trying to be argumentative and certainly not trying to promote any sort of image of modernity on a forum, I have no interest in trying to fit myself into any particular style or pigeonhole for the benefit of others, in fact I find people who subscribe to a certain image because they think it is the popular thing to do are particularly dull and uninteresting. It wasn't an argument of what if's and what abouts, what I was describing is just simple real life. Without any doubt the most common family group is a heterosexual couple and their children and as it is the most common then we describe that as 'normal', but the truth is there are so many different influences good and bad that shape how a kid grows up and there really isn't a 'normal'. I could argue that you are just trotting out the same old arguments of 'what about that kid at school with same sex parents?' or nature doesn't let two males or two females procreate, but then again nature doesn't have IVF, maternity wards, synthesised medicines, TV's, internet forums, etc. We have moved beyond what nature has provided thanks to our ability to invent so why should that advancement not include other life elements. As I said, I can understand your argument and I used to believe the same thing, but as long as we promote a false belief of idyll then we also promote intolerance and close mindedness. As for the argument of 'what about kids at school' sadly kids will always identify something that is not normal to them and focus upon that whether that is a kid with a visible birthmark, bad hair, weird eyes, big nose, fat, thin, short tall, ugly, poor, rich or whatever. Life is not equal and it is certainly not fair so trying to promote some sort of perceived equality through an artificial construct of normality is an exercise in failure. The best possible way we can combat people who seek to exploit differences in a bad way, bullies, is to try and encourage people to reasonably challenge perception and stereotypes otherwise we simply breed ignorance and that is the food for bullies. My measure is so long as people are not deliberately trying to exploit, hurt or oppress others then I really don't care. If people are offended or their sensitivities hurt through things like pride parades then they deserve all the misery that they bring upon themselves. I see the points you're making, and appreciate you're not being argumentative, but I think we have to agree to disagree on this one. We both have a different outlook to it, neither can be proven right or wrong because there is no right or wrong, just viewpoints. We're just at opposing ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Always interesting to hear people's views on the subject Vince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluebarrels Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Far too much sadness in this world of ours,if they are happy let them be BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 I see the points you're making, and appreciate you're not being argumentative, but I think we have to agree to disagree on this one. We both have a different outlook to it, neither can be proven right or wrong because there is no right or wrong, just viewpoints. We're just at opposing ends. Yep and if we didn't have differences in opinion then we wouldn't progress either. Good debate is healthy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sian Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 I would like to point out that children accept what is without question. It only becomes an issue when they are influenced by what the adults around them think. We have quite a few same sex parents at my school and it's never been an issue for the children because those who can influence them do not make issues of such things. Cliche as it may sound children are not born with an in built tenancy towards racism, sexism, etc etc etc - adults influence their views and how they will react. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 I would like to point out that children accept what is without question. It only becomes an issue when they are influenced by what the adults around them think. We have quite a few same sex parents at my school and it's never been an issue for the children because those who can influence them do not make issues of such things. Cliche as it may sound children are not born with an in built tenancy towards racism, sexism, etc etc etc - adults influence their views and how they will react. Kids react to unusual, hence staring at someone in a wheel chair or with one leg, etc, that is just a sense of natural wonder. You're absolutely spot on though that any prejudice they develop early on is influenced by adults, but ultimately also by peer pressure, TV shows and such like. The wider the spread of exposure in the social circle of the kids they more tolerant they tend to be. I was thinking the same thing when at the Scottish game fair today, the Fife Fox Hounds had a display in the main ring and they got loads of kids in to mingle with the pack whilst the announcer was talking about fox hunting. Hopefully these kids from today may challenge the accepted wisdom about fox hunting, either for or against, and be a little more informed to challenge the subject for themselves and arrive at their own reasoned opinion. Exactly the same will be true for kids that watched the pride parade or those that have people at school with same sex parents, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Just a quick question,If any of the anti gay on here can answer it, If you have children and one of them turned out to be gay, What would you do? Disown them or accept their choices? Oh and please don't say it would never happen because I'm afraid it's out of your control I have never really cared what sexual persuasion you are I judge you by your character,and in the forces had a few mates that were gay,but it was never spoken of,just accepted as they were part of your team and were there come what may. I was a Sapper as loud as they come and always up for it,and when I left the forces I became a bailiff and then a high court enforcement officer. So one morning a few years ago after I had travelled overnight from a job my wife said to me that she had something important to tell me about my son,she looked serious and I got very worried,she then told me he was gay and was worried what I might do and say as I had this persona big rough and ready. Well I tell you what I said to my wife,"is that it, I've known he was gay since he was about 12"what did I do to my son,when he walked through the door I gave him a hug,I said a few personal words to him,but let him know he would always be my son. He had been struggling for months as to how he told us,and we had noticed he was a bit down and withdrawn,from that moment on he was back to the full of life son I knew. That same son today got a first class honours degree,I am so proud I could burst,he has a partner and I have met him and he is a nice bloke. Anyone who judges someone just because of their sexual persuasion is shallow and when those people talk about not wanting to mix with that sort,have you ever thought they might not be to keen on mixing with you. Life is short,enjoy it,to hate a group of society all your life is a terrible thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 Are they, how would you know what tendencies they have. For a male to abuse young males I would assume they have far from heterosexual tendencies. As for the other point you make, why then put children with "car crash life" couples? Why would you do that? And of course you assume gay couples lead a fairy tale life of cuddles and kisses. Never assume, it's not a good idea. A quick half hour gander round the web points to a few things Firstly, you are assuming that all molestaion is sexual, most of the headline cases were not. Victoria Climbie & Baby P but to name 2 Depending on which sources you look at ( and sadly, i cannot find one that i can quote, the percentage sees to be either the same as in heterosexual man or in some cases less. Most abuse is from someone known to the victim or a family member. This data is from the US http://www.d2l.org/site/c.4dICIJOkGcISE/b.6143427/k.38C5/Child_Sexual_Abuse_Statistics.htm The one fact that seems to be true is that abuse of a child or rape of an adult is a power thing, see the comment below. Chris Wilson of Circles UK, which helps released offenders, also rejects the idea that paedophilia is a sexual orientation: "The roots of that desire for sex with a child lie in dysfunctional psychological issues to do with power, control, anger, emotional loneliness, isolation." If you read my post ( it's always a useful thing to do) at no point did i say that gay couples had a life that was all sweetness and light, just that any relationship that meant that the children were loved and cared for was a good thing. I'm sure that there are a lot of gay relationships that are car crash. IF you want a debate, i am happy to discuss but don't put a slant on things that does not exist. I have never really cared what sexual persuasion you are I judge you by your character,and in the forces had a few mates that were gay,but it was never spoken of,just accepted as they were part of your team and were there come what may. I was a Sapper as loud as they come and always up for it,and when I left the forces I became a bailiff and then a high court enforcement officer. So one morning a few years ago after I had travelled overnight from a job my wife said to me that she had something important to tell me about my son,she looked serious and I got very worried,she then told me he was gay and was worried what I might do and say as I had this persona big rough and ready. Well I tell you what I said to my wife,"is that it, I've known he was gay since he was about 12"what did I do to my son,when he walked through the door I gave him a hug,I said a few personal words to him,but let him know he would always be my son. He had been struggling for months as to how he told us,and we had noticed he was a bit down and withdrawn,from that moment on he was back to the full of life son I knew. That same son today got a first class honours degree,I am so proud I could burst,he has a partner and I have met him and he is a nice bloke. Anyone who judges someone just because of their sexual persuasion is shallow and when those people talk about not wanting to mix with that sort,have you ever thought they might not be to keen on mixing with you. Life is short,enjoy it,to hate a group of society all your life is a terrible thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLuke Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 (edited) Interesting Baby P was mentioned This topic came up in the pub recently and someone said, "I bet Baby P wishes he had had gay parents". None of us could name or recall ANY abuse/neglect/bad parenting story by gay parents so that was that. As alluded to already I am amazed that people are still so hung up on the whole gay issue. For me it is as outdated as racism and I suspect those protesting it now will look as ridiculous as the racism protests do from fifty (?) years ago Edited July 3, 2015 by LondonLuke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 My take on it is this. I served in the military with a number of comrades who turned out (after the rule change) to be gay, lesbian or trans. They all served with honour and distinction, and I'm proud to have known them. I value their views, opinions and choicesin where to find love and happiness well above the views of those to whom I am onlu loosely associated via a shared hobby, and who would deny it them out of hand. My son told me they also qualified for married quarters (if in a permanent relationship) which were much nicer then the bachelor ones. There were suddenly a lot of partnerships from unmarried career military staff. Last BBQ we went to at a nice couple we know I was voted an honoury gay as all the rest of the party goers were gay. The rainbow cake was scrumptious too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpkiller Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Ha, gay! Just joking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Interesting Baby P was mentioned This topic came up in the pub recently and someone said, "I bet Baby P wishes he had had gay parents". None of us could name or recall ANY abuse/neglect/bad parenting story by gay parents so that was that. As alluded to already I am amazed that people are still so hung up on the whole gay issue. For me it is as outdated as racism and I suspect those protesting it now will look as ridiculous as the racism protests do from fifty (?) years ago And this was behind why i started the thread, It should not be an issue hence why i asked do we still need a pride parade. A very wide set of views though. Many moons ago when i worked at Sony, one of the sales guys, Steve was in a relationship with Alan who worked elsewhere, they'd been together years and one night we all had to pair up as the hotel we were in did not have enough rooms. Another colleague, Trevor, was a little homophobic to say the least so ended up being paired with Steve. The story goes that when Trevor realised who he was sharing with, he went into full panic mode, ringing the boss eyc. It was now around midnight. Steve told us the next morning that he had said " Trevor, you're old, you're fat and bald,what on earth makes you thing i would fancy you, you ugly fat *******" Priceless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Far too much sadness in this world of ours,if they are happy let them be BB Agreed provided they leave straight folk alone ... No test cases involving Hotels ... Churches ....and others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Agreed provided they leave straight folk alone ... No test cases involving Hotels ... Churches ....and others. "They" do, the test cases came in because our govt enshrined it in law. The large hotel chains just book you in. Whilst i appreciate that as a business owner some people may not want to accept gays or lesbians, if you are offering a public service, you cannot discriminate. Not so many years ago " No Irish or Blacks" was a common sight in some hotels and guest houses. Saying that, there are militants who will go out to prove a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEshooter Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I'll start by saying I have no problem what so ever with a persons sexual preference. What I don't get is these gay blokes who seem to enjoy mincing (sorry if that word affends anyone but it is the only way I can describe acting in this manner) about and really getting in straight men's faces. It's almost like they want to get a reaction out of people they can brand you as homophobic. I tend to have a live and let live attitude but this behaviour does grind my gears and I imagine it does to your average gay man or woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymo Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Wow When I posted second to the OP was not expecting is thread to run / turn into a Gay/lesbian thing.... I thought it was to do with the perceived reaction to demonstrations / public gatherings for various groups and the inverse reaction given if / when majority groups get together to demonstrate. But if those of you wish to go on 'bashing' each other ( metaphorically speaking and in no way a reference to any sort of activity carried out by two or more individuals) , then that's of course in this day of 'semi' free speech your prerogative . All the best to you all Jay ( old enough to have seen most things, lived places to have seen things you haven't, worked with many individuals who choose to follow a different lifestyle to myself... Oh, and have a stepson who is 'undecided' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sable Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 "It " carried the death sentence at one time in England, then a jail sentence, now it is accepted, I am just glad I will be dead before it becomes compulsory! you and me both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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