Is my Gun Dealer Expensive??

[bostonmick]

Ye Gods , here you go again. What on earth has any of the above got to do with being charged 50 quid plus VAT to receive a firearm? Let's get way off topic (again) while you tell us how hard you've worked (again) and how successful you've been...again. Good for you Mick, but totally irrelevant.

Indeed Mick, take it or leave it, but while others have tried to justify it by dressing it up as a 'specialised service', I'll leave it.

This is the part of your initial post I underlined to ask how relevant it is to the topic, but it looks like I'll have to elaborate...again.

What on earth has your boss saying 'you should do a couple of hours extra for free after all your already at work so no extra cost to you' got to do with anything? The suggestion is as ridiculous as your normal ramblings. For a start no bosses I have ever worked for have ever suggested such a thing for obvious reasons, and secondly, of course there's an 'extra cost to you'; you'd be working for nowt for crying out loud!

And why a couple of hours? Are you seriously suggesting it takes a couple of hours to unwrap a package and transfer the details of that within, into a register? Plus, if that RFD's rates are based on 50 quid to do so, two hours to do so would be at least 100 quid plus VAT, not 50!

I wont be getting into another prolonged debate with you Mick; I spend time on here as I often find it a pleasant way to spend some time, whereas I find debating your eccentric ways anything but. I'm out.

I suggested nothing of the sort.But as usual for you any opinion that you do not agree with gets the typical infantile response.The whole point I make is that as a potential customer you are fully entitled to have your own opinion of what a reasonable charge should be for whatever service or product you want you do not have the right to dictate this price to somebody providing it.other than to walk away.I have added my opinion on this topic so like you will leave it there.atb

[welshwarrior]

Scully the couriers don't pay out for the damage to a gun in my experience, I received a rifle the box was floppy with a clear tyre track across I signed for it as damaged the sender never managed to get anything in 6 months.

 

If the RFD didn't replace that stock we would have been reading a post about how bad was that RFD not courier.

 

£25 doesn't always cover the hassle of deal with a transfer.

[Scully]

Scully the couriers don't pay out for the damage to a gun in my experience, I received a rifle the box was floppy with a clear tyre track across I signed for it as damaged the sender never managed to get anything in 6 months.

 

If the RFD didn't replace that stock we would have been reading a post about how bad was that RFD not courier.

 

£25 doesn't always cover the hassle of deal with a transfer.

Fair enough but in that case neither would 50 quid.

Being self employed means not getting paid for hassle I'm afraid. If we all wanted to charge an hourly fee based on unforeseen things which may happen, where would we start?

My advise to the OP is to buy your gun from Avalon; the price you see is the price you pay, although you will pay the courier, and your RFD at this end would appreciate something in cash I've often found.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Scully

[clayman]

GTA RFD members using the TNT contract, and BASC members using the ParcelForce contract have higher carriage costs in those contracts than casual parcels over the counter, but the BASC / GTA are insured to a set limit, while casual parcels non-contract are no compensation.

 

Its likely the lower priced senders are not members of either of these Professional associations, and use the no compensation services.

 

Bostonmick makes the subtle point:- provide a good service and you don't want for people willing to pay a fair price. So, the market is self regulatory. Those who want low costs engage the cheap dealers, but may have hassles when things go wrong, particularly lost or damaged goods. Those who prefer to have peace of mind that should anything go awry the dealer will sort it out satisfactorily will pay more for that peace of mind.

 

There are also regional differences. Certainly, home counties have typical trademan's rates of £50 / hr + from contract firms, while in Yorkshire it can be half that, and central London double! What is a fair charge does depend on a persons location and business style. A self employed person working from home or part time can be satisfied with half or less that a High St business employing staff needs to cover. My own small gun shop needed £8000 pm T/O to break even, before the operators could take any profit. Indirect charges coming from staff wages and other admin and premises costs were about £2500 pm. Thats a lot of £25's! and its little wonder gun shops across the country are closing when customers do not support local services and prefer to discounters who probably have little after-service that the High St retailer provides by building this into his pricing.

 

RFD's have a professional duty of care, and if they get things wrong with aspects of the service can risk fines, criminal offence and custody sentencing, and loss of RFD license and livelihood.

 

In my own view, even an average £25 RFD charge is well under its true worth and the trade is doing shooter's a big favour in operating at round these typical charges. It may look easy and cheap to a lay person, but once you have been in the trade you realise it is not so simple as might be perceived.

 

And as far a packing and sending is concerned, yes there is a skill and care needed. We have had guns turn up here direct into a bin bag, no box or bubble, barrels poking through - and not just once! We see some terrible packing arriving, but the big dealers who charge a proper price send beautifully boxed and wrapped parcels where damage is most unlikely. Well done Greenfields for the trophy in this aspect from me. If RFD services are unskilled, it should be possible to train some-one in 10 minutes to deal with this - but its very complex, and has repercussions if you get it wrong. Some dealers require every process is checked or duplicated ( Chris Potters gun shop a great example, very careful double checking on every register entry, a joy to observe such professional conduct).

Edited July 25, 2015 by clayman

[ghosthunter]

My local RFD charged me a mere £15 to receive a shotgun... and I've only used him twice

[Scully]

GTA RFD members using the TNT contract, and BASC members using the ParcelForce contract have higher carriage costs in those contracts than casual parcels over the counter, but the BASC / GTA are insured to a set limit, while casual parcels non-contract are no compensation.

 

Its likely the lower priced senders are not members of either of these Professional associations, and use the no compensation services.

 

Bostonmick makes the subtle point:- provide a good service and you don't want for people willing to pay a fair price. So, the market is self regulatory. Those who want low costs engage the cheap dealers, but may have hassles when things go wrong, particularly lost or damaged goods. Those who prefer to have peace of mind that should anything go awry the dealer will sort it out satisfactorily will pay more for that peace of mind.

 

There are also regional differences. Certainly, home counties have typical trademan's rates of £50 / hr + from contract firms, while in Yorkshire it can be half that, and central London double! What is a fair charge does depend on a persons location and business style. A self employed person working from home or part time can be satisfied with half or less that a High St business employing staff needs to cover. My own small gun shop needed £8000 pm T/O to break even, before the operators could take any profit. Indirect charges coming from staff wages and other admin and premises costs were about £2500 pm. Thats a lot of £25's! and its little wonder gun shops across the country are closing when customers do not support local services and prefer to discounters who probably have little after-service that the High St retailer provides by building this into his pricing.

 

RFD's have a professional duty of care, and if they get things wrong with aspects of the service can risk fines, criminal offence and custody sentencing, and loss of RFD license and livelihood.

 

In my own view, even an average £25 RFD charge is well under its true worth and the trade is doing shooter's a big favour in operating at round these typical charges. It may look easy and cheap to a lay person, but once you have been in the trade you realise it is not so simple as might be perceived.

 

And as far a packing and sending is concerned, yes there is a skill and care needed. We have had guns turn up here direct into a bin bag, no box or bubble, barrels poking through - and not just once! We see some terrible packing arriving, but the big dealers who charge a proper price send beautifully boxed and wrapped parcels where damage is most unlikely. Well done Greenfields for the trophy in this aspect from me. If RFD services are unskilled, it should be possible to train some-one in 10 minutes to deal with this - but its very complex, and has repercussions if you get it wrong. Some dealers require every process is checked or duplicated ( Chris Potters gun shop a great example, very careful double checking on every register entry, a joy to observe such professional conduct).

 

And after all that it's still £50 +VAT to receive a package, open it and enter its contents in a register. I'm obviously in the wrong business.

I get charged £20 to submit paintings to some quite prestigious London galleries and have it entered into their inventory; their staff obviously aren't as skilfully specialised as some.

Forgot to add they're to unwrap too. Ah well...

Edited July 25, 2015 by Scully

[clayman]

As said before, and being overlooked by you - is what is the service content of a £50 charge as opposed to a £20 one? For £50+ the client may be getting uplift ( ie no sender RFD charge), and carriage within that £50. Each charge from free to £50+ may contain differing levels of service and liability cover. You can only judge the different charges by taking into consideration what the charge is for.

 

If a sender charges £20, uses PF counter service with no insurance at , say £15, and the receiver wants £25 - its still the same or more than a £50 RFD that arranges the whole thing inclusing insured carriage.

 

I'd be interested to hear from any RFD that would claim their admin from top to bottom is less than 1/2hr, its not a "few minutes from one's idle time".

 

Customer enquires about RFD services, phone in 5 mins - Only 1/4 of enquiries go further. in my experience. So thats about 15 mins tel time to get one job.

Customer discussion to confirm, request other RFD details - another 5 mins.

Communicate with 2nd RFD and exchange RFD details - cert scans etc.5 mins, plus a couple of emails.

Receive, check over and pack the gun. Book on line with carrier and print up labels. 10-15mins and some consumables

Arrange collection appointment with carrier. Hand over when they come.

Enter the details in the register, and report to National Register as/if required - another 5 mins.

 

I make this well over 1/2hr to carry out all the processes, for which I need to have invested in and be trained in the use of the required IT, plus have the necessary RFD cert only obtainable after a considerable security investment.

 

The original question asked is " my RFD expensive?"

 

Frankly, any charge up to £50 is good value depending on what's contained in that fee. A £10 charge can be much poorer value than a £50 one, depending on what exactly you are buying for the fee.

 

Support your dealers and pay fair prices for the services provided. Our assistance as a country with some freedom to own guns depends on the trade and the more this economic area of gun commerce shrinks the greater danger we as a community are in to loose yet more access to our fire-arms pleasures.

 

You may readily support BASC even through you only need insurance available at much lower annual cost, because BASC supports the political lobby of shooting. So do gun shops and RFD's contribute hugely to this lobby and your rights to continue what you do. Through the GTA gun shops, manufacturers, and others protect your rights - so its totally appropriate you should help their survival by paying fair rates for the valuable services they provide.

 

If the shooting community chooses to penny pinch so much the retail gun trade dies a death, it will be the end using gun community that suffers the most through new regulation and constraints pushed through with little lobby from a fragmented and small trade group.

 

Choose BASC trade members or GTA members, get the services you need, and pay a fair price. This can only be to everyone's long term benefit.

Edited July 25, 2015 by clayman

[Scully]

As said before, and being overlooked by you - is what is the service content of a £50 charge as opposed to a £20 one? For £50+ the client may be getting uplift ( ie no sender RFD charge), and carriage within that £50. Each charge from free to £50+ may contain differing levels of service and liability cover. You can only judge the different charges by taking into consideration what the charge is for.

​And in this particular case, and being overlooked by you, it is the receiving and opening of a package and its contents being entered on a register, a process for which you claim is a specialised skill. It isn't.

 

If a sender charges £20, uses PF counter service with no insurance at , say £15, and the receiver wants £25 - its still the same or more than a £50 RFD that arranges the whole thing inclusing insured carriage.

The OP is as far as we know, already paying for the package to be sent, at a cost he doesn't specify, but is then being told it will cost him a further £50 for his RFD to receive it.

 

I'd be interested to hear from any RFD that would claim their admin from top to bottom is less than 1/2hr, its not a "few minutes from one's idle time".

Even at an hour £50 is expensive.

I have RFD'd firearms via Avalon Guns on more than three occasions, Lakeland Guns and sent and received firearms via Sykes and Lakeland Sporting Guns. Not once have I been charged more than £25, and sometimes less.

 

Customer enquires about RFD services, phone in 5 mins - Only 1/4 of enquiries go further. in my experience. So thats about 15 mins tel time to get one job.

Customer discussion to confirm, request other RFD details - another 5 mins.

Communicate with 2nd RFD and exchange RFD details - cert scans etc.5 mins, plus a couple of emails.

Receive, check over and pack the gun. Book on line with carrier and print up labels. 10-15mins and some consumables

Arrange collection appointment with carrier. Hand over when they come.

Enter the details in the register, and report to National Register as/if required - another 5 mins.

The OP's RFD isn't doing most of what you have written above; he is receiving a package.

As someone who is self employed I find your method of operation staggering. Do you break down every transaction into minutes and charge a client accordingly? Do you charge buyers of your guns for the time it takes you to enter their ticket details onto your register and inform the authorities of the transaction? You've included this very part of the transaction in your breakdown above.

 

I make this well over 1/2hr to carry out all the processes, for which I need to have invested in and be trained in the use of the required IT, plus have the necessary RFD cert only obtainable after a considerable security investment.

You can't charge a customer for processes required by law to administer your business! You make it all sound like a major inconvenience rather than a voluntary business undertaking. Were you press ganged into becoming a RFD? It's like me charging a client for all the hours I've spent developing the skills I now have rather than the actual cost of a specific job.

 

The original question asked is " my RFD expensive?" And the answer is 'yes, he is'.

 

Frankly, any charge up to £50 is good value depending on what's contained in that fee. Yes, it is. A charge should reflect the specialist skill involved in performing that task; receiving, unwrapping, checking and entering that packages' details in a register is not by any stretch of the imagination a specialised skill. A £10 charge can be much poorer value than a £50 one, depending on what exactly you are buying for the fee. Obviously, but I remain unconvinced receiving a package warrants a £50 fee.

 

Support your dealers and pay fair prices for the services provided. I do, but I wont be ripped off. Our assistance as a country with some freedom to own guns depends on the trade and the more this economic area of gun commerce shrinks the greater danger we as a community are in to loose yet more access to our fire-arms pleasures.Rubbish.

 

You may readily support BASC even through you only need insurance available at much lower annual cost, because BASC supports the political lobby of shooting. I don't support BASC. So do gun shops and RFD's contribute hugely to this lobby and your rights to continue what you do. As does each individual shooter who is a member of a shooting organisation; the gun trade has no monopoly on this. You make them sound as if they're doing us all a favour, which is ridiculous. Through the GTA gun shops, manufacturers, and others protect your rights - ​Again, as do most individual shooters. so its totally appropriate you should help their survival by paying fair rates for the valuable services they provide. Their survival? If it's so bad on £50 quid an hour perhaps it's time to call it a day. I find that suggestion as totally inappropriate as you find it appropriate. What a strange, condescending attitude that is.

 

If the shooting community chooses to penny pinch so much the retail gun trade dies a death, it will be the end using gun community that suffers the most through new regulation and constraints pushed through with little lobby from a fragmented and small trade group.If the gun trade was to rip off shooters as you seem to think it's justified to do, the trade will be dying much quicker than you suggest.

 

Choose BASC trade members or GTA members, get the services you need, and pay a fair price.I do, but £50 isn't fair. This can only be to everyone's long term benefit. The RFD's around here are thriving, believe me, and that's with charging much less than you suggest they do.

[Whitebridges]

I like that. Good stuff again Scully.

[Marksman1997]

I was going to get a used one rfd to NI rfd, and my local (co. Londonderry) rfd wanted £100.00 LOL. So I binned that idea and bought a brand new gun instead, as it worked out cheaper

The gun i was looking at was the one in your picture with kick-off for £700 but it's now gone so no need to worry!

[Davyo]

I think it's all down to service,we have been waiting for a gun,Guy who sold us it PM'd to see if we had rec & where happy.We PM'D him back stating,gun not rec,turns out RDF forgot to post it on LOL.

Chris as for a bloody refund mate,RDF charging top whack should not be forgetting to post guns!!!!!!

[Big Al]

Marksman - for future reference my local rfd charges £25. He's just outside Lisburn.

[Dekers]

Crumbs, this is getting a bit lively.

 

Of course the RFD has costs, he is running a business, and those costs are far more than opening a package!

 

If the OP doesn't like it he can go to another RFD, or will his extra traveling time/costs negate any saving on the £50; or he can get on a boat/airplane and collect it...oh, but that costs more than £50.

 

My Main Dealer Garage charges £120 per hour labour, that is not expensive for the make, but I have another Specialist dealer in my car type who charges around half that, so am I getting ripped off or do I exercise my choice!?

 

This isn't Rip Off, its market forces/supply and demand, why do you think Holidays cost more when taken during the school holidays?

 

We live in the real world, it was the OP choice to buy this way.

[Davyo]

Update on the gun the RDF forgot to send ( no fault of the seller) Seller only found out we hadn't received it as PM'd to see if it was received and we where happy with it.Well gun arrived eventually ( received a text from my mate as I'm out in Meneorca at the mo) but with no paper work at all (just a 22 LR,mod & bolt), not even the name of the recipient.Very poor service,in my eyes they should have a very thorough stricken policy when sending FA & SG through the post and this then may warrant a cost.

I find it shocking that an RDF is allowed to operate with these kind of mistakes.Imagine if my mate forgets to post of notification of purchase to his local FA unit.Would it be ok for him to say I just forgot?