Method/technique

[Scully]

Shooting driven last Saturday some members were discussing their method or technique over lunch in the local pub following the shoot. It soon became clear that those who tracked their birds were missing more than those who swept their barrels through.

I found it very interesting the different techniques or methods employed by guns, with varying degrees of success, and the inability of those who miss more than they hit to change that method.

I find that I track clays and swing through to give lead, which I can clearly see, as more often than not the clay is going away and slowing down, whereas with live quarry shooting I literally whip those barrels through and have no perception of lead at all.

i still get surprised at just how fast that swing needs to be at times also. For example, a bird I shot as walking gun, quartered from the wood at a phenomenal rate in Saturdays wind and as it crossed me at a good distance, for a split second as I fired I thought I'd swung through far too fast only to see it fold up dead in the air. Yet I struggled on those seemingly slower birds coming straight at me for some reason, although I was leaving it late to select one as I didn't want to poach anothers bird in the swerving wind. An early chosen bird very often veered towards a neighbour as it grew closer meaning I had to choose another, only to find that one, even closer now, doing the same. That's my excuse anyhow.

The only exception I make to swing through is when I shoot bolting bunnies; either clay or real. In this case I am very aware of tracking and lead, as live rabbits seldom bolt in a straight line but jink and weave as they go. I track and then give just a little 'push', to get just in front of its front feet at the moment I pull that trigger. It is the only time I'm aware of both my barrels (peripherally) and lead when shooting live quarry.

Anyhow, the more we talked the clearer it became that those who tracked birds and were very inconsistent shots who more than likely missed, were, without exception, those who only shot during the shooting season and for whom the entire matter was more of a social occasion than a love of shooting. Each to their own of course, but I can't help thinking they are missing out on so much, and would enjoy it and get so much more out of it if they practised more.

I'll never forget a mate who is relatively new to shotgunning, and the look on his face when it eventually clicked just how fast that swing needed to be to bring that bird down. It is a joy to see the joy on his face when we're in a hide or on our rough shoot and he consistently folds up those birds.

It also transpired that my nephew and I were the only two who practised our mounts in the mirror, which attracted the usual innuendo of course.

Anyhow, just an observation.

 

 

[robbiep]

I came from a rifle background, and am still amazed by the amount of lead required for pheasants at times.

 

I had a day-long lesson from 'Magman' (Brian) off here a couple of years ago, and we worked on me giving more and more lead. Coming from rifle, I was tending to point AT the clay, rather than where it would be when the shot finally got there.

His words to me were to the extent of 'If you miss, you usually need to give it more lead', and it's true, and something I've worked on ever since.

 

Still missing plenty, of course ...

[Scully]

I came from a rifle background, and am still amazed by the amount of lead required for pheasants at times.

 

I had a day-long lesson from 'Magman' (Brian) off here a couple of years ago, and we worked on me giving more and more lead. Coming from rifle, I was tending to point AT the clay, rather than where it would be when the shot finally got there.

His words to me were to the extent of 'If you miss, you usually need to give it more lead', and it's true, and something I've worked on ever since.

 

Still missing plenty, of course ...

Yep, the mate I refer to above is a keen rifleman also as he's a hill farmer with years of fox shooting experience under his belt but had never really used a shotgun, and used to aim the shotgun rather than point, and he admits he still finds himself shutting one eye at times.

It took a while to explain how he needed to sweep the gun through and it wasn't until I fired a lot of fast crossing clays at him on those days we had a bit play, that he realised just how fast that sweep needed to be. He missed dozens initially, but once he started to connect he realised just how fast that swing needed to be.

Tracking is ok if you then whip those barrels through to get in front, but I find it much harder to determine the correct rate of lead, and find it easier to simply sweep from the outset.

Just tracking means many miss behind with that first barrel, which results in the shooter whipping through the bird to 'catch up' for that second barrel, and surprising themselves with a hit. Saying that, it works for some, some of the time.

[welshwarrior]

It's a common issue swing through is a very easy technique to pick up but some people just can't manage it so pull ahead becomes a better option.

 

 

The instructors skill is to teach the right technique for the client.

 

Personally I shoot average pheasants and partridges swing through. High pheasants I prefer one of two techniques Frist and main pull ahead second is to mount in front around half the required lead then pull away from the bird to the appropriate lead. Grouse I shoot maintained lead.

 

The issue tends to be those that shoot less tend to need a season to get back into it and remember what they learnt last season then stop shooting again for 6 months. This is where IMHO a refresher or prep shoot warm lesson can really help.

[EdSolomons]

Very much a personal preference and as always more than one way to skin a cat.

I steer people away from large gun movement and high barrel speed as it can lead to big inconsistencies with timing.

The barrel needs to be going faster than the clay/bird with all methods except maintained lead, I work on 5-20% faster dependent on method used.

On the real big stuff there are a few hybrid methods which work pretty well but the basics remain the same.

[Scully]

I just can't get to grips with maintained lead; I find my eyes darting between muzzle and target, resulting in a miss, although I do find myself 'chopping off' certain targets on the rare occasions I shoot clays, but only over very short distances when the window for a shot is narrow. I suppose that is a form of maintained lead.

I can't work out what 5 to 20% of something I don't judge in the first place, is.

I think we all find over time what works for us, which is fair enough; I find the biggest hindrance to finding that method, is a reluctance to put in the time required.

[Charlie1965]

My fall back method is : Look at the bird, Mount the gun, Pull the trigger.

 

I have no awareness of lead. I am pulling the trigger as soon as the gun comes into my shoulder. Have been 3:1 on the pheasants so far this season. Had my gun fitted a few years ago and have had lessons with various instructors / methods in the past including maintained lead, don't have lessons now, just dry mount the gun every so often and try to have my feet in the right place.

Are you aware of when you pull the trigger Scully?

[dougall]

you could and folks have, written books on this one..........my tuppence worth;

folks start with trail/bird/overtake & bang.I think after a while most shooters move to mount on bird pull away and then for some birds maintained lead from the off....once you have a 'library' of lead pictures for certain birds you apply the lead as quick as possible and fire.There is no right/wrong answer but I do believe most are a hybird of pull away/maintained lead whether conscious or not.The hardest part for a new shooter/rifle shooter is the perception of line.and speed. If you imagine a cyclist at 30 mph whizzes past you as you ready to cross the road you jump/react quick,well now picture a cyclist doing the same 30 mph but 40 yards from you........the perception is of much slower speed where in reality it is the same.Whilst the brain reacts to the near bird,and the swing is automatically quick for the 40 yarder an absolute clear and conscious effort must be made to send your pattern out in front to intercept it.How folk apply this lead is very individual but initially it is NOT NATURAL in fact lead is exponential for distance more so than for speed(which the brain can perceive)........reading the speed and distance and LINE is what makes the good shots good it is left relevant as to how they put the lead into the equation...I think it is referring back to the 'library' and practise which lets this Lead thing click into place. I took my son last week for a play on the clays,same gun/cartridge/targets as we buttoned for each other and it was surprising how differently we read the birds and amount of lead,because whilst it is a mathematical fact that the lead for us both was the same,how we saw it and tackled it,especially on long crossers was incredibly different..........

[Scully]

Are you aware of when you pull the trigger Scully?

Good question to which I'm not sure I know the answer even after thinking about it for a good while. The more I think about it the more I think it must be a subconscious effort, in that I'm never aware of thinking 'now' as my barrels blot out the bird only to have it reappear on the other side of my barrels, hopefully folding up and tumbling out of the sky.

I have found that by tracking those deceivingly slow, hanging in the air corvids, they are exceptionally easy to miss, and sometimes feel I need to make a conscious effort to sweep through them as I do on much faster pigeons, when everything is telling me it's just hanging there motionless in the air. It isn't. But I'm still not aware of making a conscious effort to pull the trigger.

Are you?

Edited December 21, 2015 by Scully

[Westley]

I am suprised that nobody has mentioned at what point they pull the trigger. Over many years of picking up work and thus watching shooters of all capabilities, from commercial shoots to private family and friends days, one gets to see how the better shots behave. They are watching any bird that may present a shot, over the end of their barrels and the stock below their shoulder. Once they have decided "Yes that is my bird", they simply mount the gun into cheek and shoulder, pull ahead and fire. On the average height bird this first shot is taken some 30 to 40 yards IN FRONT of their position. The bird when folded, then drops just in front or at the most around 20 yards behind them. Obviously the front distance decreases and the rear distance also increases with the height of the bird. After loading for a guy using a pair of Westley Richards guns in the late sixties, I decided that I would work to one day own a Westley. In 1978, I achieved that aim. I then had it altered to fit by the makers. It is the same type of gun that appeared in last weeks Shooting Times, except for the single trigger. Contrary to the report, Westley's did have issues with the single trigger. The gun is bored 1/4 and 3/4 and I always pull the back trigger 3/4 choke first, out in FRONT. Most shooters pull the open barrel first and then 'pluck' the bird with the choke barrel, directly overhead. I now only use 28 gram 6's unless birds are going to be very high, when I will switch to 30 gram 5's. At the peak of my shooting I was averaging 2 for 1, but age and health have taken their toll and that, last season, had risen to 3 for 1. I have been unable to shoot this season or at all since last April, but things are starting to ease and a few shots with the 20 bore are looming. So, give em the choke in front, do not mount and track the bird (Hence the "I can hit the snap shots but I always miss those that I can see for miles "). I keep saying to myself "Wait, wait, wait, NOW" then mount and shoot. Practice this on the clay ground, starting on the 'partridge stand' and moving on to the 'high tower'. It will come with practice as long as your gun fits and your cartridges suit your gun.

[shalfordninja33]

I am suprised that nobody has mentioned at what point they pull the trigger. Over many years of picking up work and thus watching shooters of all capabilities, from commercial shoots to private family and friends days, one gets to see how the better shots behave. They are watching any bird that may present a shot, over the end of their barrels and the stock below their shoulder. Once they have decided "Yes that is my bird", they simply mount the gun into cheek and shoulder, pull ahead and fire. On the average height bird this first shot is taken some 30 to 40 yards IN FRONT of their position. The bird when folded, then drops just in front or at the most around 20 yards behind them. Obviously the front distance decreases and the rear distance also increases with the height of the bird. After loading for a guy using a pair of Westley Richards guns in the late sixties, I decided that I would work to one day own a Westley. In 1978, I achieved that aim. I then had it altered to fit by the makers. It is the same type of gun that appeared in last weeks Shooting Times, except for the single trigger. Contrary to the report, Westley's did have issues with the single trigger. The gun is bored 1/4 and 3/4 and I always pull the back trigger 3/4 choke first, out in FRONT. Most shooters pull the open barrel first and then 'pluck' the bird with the choke barrel, directly overhead. I now only use 28 gram 6's unless birds are going to be very high, when I will switch to 30 gram 5's. At the peak of my shooting I was averaging 2 for 1, but age and health have taken their toll and that, last season, had risen to 3 for 1. I have been unable to shoot this season or at all since last April, but things are starting to ease and a few shots with the 20 bore are looming. So, give em the choke in front, do not mount and track the bird (Hence the "I can hit the snap shots but I always miss those that I can see for miles "). I keep saying to myself "Wait, wait, wait, NOW" then mount and shoot. Practice this on the clay ground, starting on the 'partridge stand' and moving on to the 'high tower'. It will come with practice as long as your gun fits and your cartridges suit your gun.

Some great advice it in here. I was always told to try and drop the bird at my feet, giving me time for a second shot over my head or the choice of shooting behind me. And yes the greater choked barrel first as the bird will be closer for the second. "They are watching any bird that may present a shot, over the end of their barrels and the stock below their shoulder" I use this method as I find it stops me mounting too early "Once they have decided "Yes that is my bird", they simply mount the gun into cheek and shoulder, pull ahead and fire" If I mount and track too early invariably I miss. I struggle on occasions with those birds straight over me through not relaxing a blotting the bird out completely, I'm so keen to see whether or not I've hit the bird that I don't take the time to block it out properly and make sure I've hit it!!

 

Shooting driven last Saturday some members were discussing their method or technique over lunch in the local pub following the shoot. It soon became clear that those who tracked their birds were missing more than those who swept their barrels through.

I found it very interesting the different techniques or methods employed by guns, with varying degrees of success, and the inability of those who miss more than they hit to change that method.

I find that I track clays and swing through to give lead, which I can clearly see, as more often than not the clay is going away and slowing down, whereas with live quarry shooting I literally whip those barrels through and have no perception of lead at all.

i still get surprised at just how fast that swing needs to be at times also. For example, a bird I shot as walking gun, quartered from the wood at a phenomenal rate in Saturdays wind and as it crossed me at a good distance, for a split second as I fired I thought I'd swung through far too fast only to see it fold up dead in the air. Yet I struggled on those seemingly slower birds coming straight at me for some reason, although I was leaving it late to select one as I didn't want to poach anothers bird in the swerving wind. An early chosen bird very often veered towards a neighbour as it grew closer meaning I had to choose another, only to find that one, even closer now, doing the same. That's my excuse anyhow.

The only exception I make to swing through is when I shoot bolting bunnies; either clay or real. In this case I am very aware of tracking and lead, as live rabbits seldom bolt in a straight line but jink and weave as they go. I track and then give just a little 'push', to get just in front of its front feet at the moment I pull that trigger. It is the only time I'm aware of both my barrels (peripherally) and lead when shooting live quarry.

Anyhow, the more we talked the clearer it became that those who tracked birds and were very inconsistent shots who more than likely missed, were, without exception, those who only shot during the shooting season and for whom the entire matter was more of a social occasion than a love of shooting. Each to their own of course, but I can't help thinking they are missing out on so much, and would enjoy it and get so much more out of it if they practised more.

I'll never forget a mate who is relatively new to shotgunning, and the look on his face when it eventually clicked just how fast that swing needed to be to bring that bird down. It is a joy to see the joy on his face when we're in a hide or on our rough shoot and he consistently folds up those birds.

It also transpired that my nephew and I were the only two who practised our mounts in the mirror, which attracted the usual innuendo of course.

Anyhow, just an observation.

 

 

Really Interesting thread this one Scully.

 

I shot a driven day on Saturday, it was a mix of Pheasant a Partridge and quite gusty. I shot 1 for 5 on the first drive, then 5 for 8 on the second drive. They were moving about on the wind quite significantly and required much more lead than I was giving them to begin with, I'm always conscious of shooting my neighbours bird but a quick chat to the guns either side of me after the first drive and we agreed that with the way the birds were curling and turning in the wind we would just concentrate on enjoying the day and not worry about it. I nearly always swing through the bird from behind them and pull the trigger as the barrels are accelerating away from the bird. Once I'd found the amount of lead to give them I shot between 2 and 3 to 1 for the rest of the day. I've found the guys that I shoot clays with have a window of lead their happy with and apply that to pretty much everything, once the birds are much higher/further out or faster they start to struggle and won't change their shooting to suit the circumstances. A friend of mine also fires his second barrel very quickly if he misses with the first, I suggest that he might want to leave it a second or two before using the second barrel, as very often he misses behind and the bird will invariably be further away and require more lead to connect with, since he's slowed the second shot down he's hitting more with the second barrel.

[Farma Geddon]

I use maintained lead.

My method is simple , like me.

I start in front of the bird , pulling away slowly until the desired distance is gained ,the brain says "right "and I shoot.

For very high birds , especially small stuff like duck or pigeon ,I will track the bird for a long time , conciously aligning everything accurately until I get it right and then let fly.

[Gordon R]

Maintained lead is okay for some targets, but doesn't work for rising targets. You can't see what is under you barrel.

 

Skeet lends itself to maintained lead, as you know what distance the targets are at.

[Farma Geddon]

Maintained lead is okay for some targets, but doesn't work for rising targets. You can't see what is under you barrel.

Why can't I see them if I maintain lead ?

Skeet lends itself to maintained lead, as you know what distance the targets are at.

[Scully]

 

Maintained lead is okay for some targets, but doesn't work for rising targets. You can't see what is under you barrel.

Why can't I see them if I maintain lead ?

Skeet lends itself to maintained lead, as you know what distance the targets are at.

 

Because the target would be below your line of sight and therefore blotted out by your barrels if you used maintained lead, wouldn't it?

[Farma Geddon]

In that case , wouldn't the same be true for walked up pheasant flying directly away and rising and rabbit running away,teal flaring , .

I don't have a problem with seeing any target.

Surely when you pull through a rising bird , would you not have the same perceived problem?

[welshwarrior]

I use maintained lead.

My method is simple , like me.

I start in front of the bird , pulling away slowly until the desired distance is gained ,the brain says "right "and I shoot.

For very high birds , especially small stuff like duck or pigeon ,I will track the bird for a long time , conciously aligning everything accurately until I get it right and then let fly.

That's not maintained lead it's a modified pull ahead.

[Scully]

In that case , wouldn't the same be true for walked up pheasant flying directly away and rising and rabbit running away,teal flaring , .Yes, it would. My understanding of maintained lead is that the muzzles are always in front of the target, but as I don't use it I may be wrong.

I don't have a problem with seeing any target.

Surely when you pull through a rising bird , would you not have the same perceived problem? Again, yes it would, but to pull through a rising bird isn't maintained lead, unless I've misunderstood the theory. I sweep through a rising target; shooting as the target is blotted out by my muzzles; that's follow through or pull away.

[welshwarrior]

Maintained lead the gun is mounted (inserted) in front of the bird (correct lead) then moved at the same speed on the line of the bird the trigger can then be pulled any time during that swing.

 

IMHO it is not a great method for driven pheasants

[Farma Geddon]

Well , whatever it's designation , I always start above , in front ,of the target and never behind on purpose , though it does occasionally happen that I may start behind a target ,and in that case I just pull through as "normal" people would .

[big bad lindz]

the 4 B`s technique. It does not work every time but it does work.

 

Bum Belly Beak Bang