geordieh Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 If you want to place burgling your house and walking across your lawn in the same bracket ordnance then be my guest. My post is my opinion/belief and I stand by it, you have read it so know where I stand - anyone enters my house and poses a threat to my family will be treated to any response as I see fit and no consequences will deter me. You find two or three blokes in you house in the middle of the night how do you know whether they are there to rape your wife or steal your family silver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 My last post on the subject. There are some seriously odd people posting on this matter. Sectionable springs to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 What would you do geordieh? Make them a cup of Tea and wait while they decide? If I woke to find 3 men in my house in the middle of the night then I don't care if they have come to admire my Décor-my response would be the same. In my eyes if you want to live outside the Law then you should be prepared to accept the same unlawful consequences. Last Comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 using lethal force against someone who at the moment he was shot posed no threat to yourself or anyone else.The law is clear and works,i am honestly surprised by comments like yours,even more surprised that some hold SGC's How the hell can you determine that they posed no threat? I bet if they found Martin asleep in bed his death would not have been all over the news as they would never have been caught, They travelled down from the Midlands to burgle him, they would have beat him to a pulp at the very least! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 The law allows you to use reasonable force to defend yourself, what TM did was not reasonable, proportional or lawful, I can't argue that the world is probably a better place without another thieving scum bag however to wrongs don't make a right. What if it had of been a young kid messing about TM had shot? Would people defend TM then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 So you think we should be able to shoot people if they try to steel our car burgle our house, why stop there what if they walk across your private property your garden. Even here were some people carry firearms for self defence thats what its for not for shooting somewone trying to steel your car etc. The law is what it is Martin was guilty of murder and managed to wriggle out of it with a diminished responsibility plea. Er, there were three of them, they were armed with screwdrivers, crowbars and knives. How fair a bloody fight do you want? He had been repeatedly burgled in the weeks prior to this happening, there had been no police activity in trying to find the burglars, there had been no increased patrols in the area, the man was in fear of losing his life. The people he shot turned out to be serial offenders who had committed multiple burglaries, had assaulted people during the course of those burglaries and also dealt in drugs. Hardly teenagers going through what they thought was an abandoned house! The law allows you to use reasonable force to defend yourself, what TM did was not reasonable, proportional or lawful, I can't argue that the world is probably a better place without another thieving scum bag however to wrongs don't make a right. What if it had of been a young kid messing about TM had shot? Would people defend TM then? What is reasonable force against 3 people armed with crowbars, screwdrivers and knives then? He did not have enough time to get a baseball bat with nails in it made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Er, there were three of them, they were armed with screwdrivers, crowbars and knives. How fair a bloody fight do you want? He had been repeatedly burgled in the weeks prior to this happening, there had been no police activity in trying to find the burglars, there had been no increased patrols in the area, the man was in fear of losing his life. The people he shot turned out to be serial offenders who had committed multiple burglaries, had assaulted people during the course of those burglaries and also dealt in drugs. Hardly teenagers going through what they thought was an abandoned house! What is reasonable force against 3 people armed with crowbars, screwdrivers and knives then? He did not have enough time to get a baseball bat with nails in it made! I've not looked at this case in detail, however I know enough about it that at the point he shot the guy they were already running away and shot a man who was no threat to himself in the back, p.s clubbing someone with a bat with nails in when they are not a threat to you is unlawful as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 I may be wrong but after TM shot the burglar didnt the other 2 burglers run off leaving the wounded 1 to die? Again going from memory so I could wrong TM stated that he was unaware that the burglar lay dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalahari Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Well, it was in the weekend papers that nothing was found and no charges will be made. Which makes some of the comments on here a bit close to libel. David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) I've not looked at this case in detail, however I know enough about it that at the point he shot the guy they were already running away and shot a man who was no threat to himself in the back, p.s clubbing someone with a bat with nails in when they are not a threat to you is unlawful as well Yes but when is it lawful to break into someone else's property when their life is not in danger? Edited February 14, 2016 by secretagentmole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Well, it was in the weekend papers that nothing was found and no charges will be made. Which makes some of the comments on here a bit close to libel. David. It was reported on the BBC that an air rifle was found however it was not working and was not a viable weapon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Which makes some of the comments on here a bit close to libel. I don't recall any comments which would be libellous. That said, Tony Martin could only sue for damage to his reputation and I doubt he could prove his reputation had suffered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytree Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 What's the general consensus? I have some sympathy for Tony Martin, he did wrong but he obviously has issues. His life is still a mess thanks to press intrusion. He may always have had issues but he was probably a harmless bloke until targeted by thieves and eventually driven to the point of desperation. He shouldn't have had a shotgun and shouldn't have shot at the thieves but neither should they have been breaking into his house in the middle of the night. Would it have made any difference if he was facing Barras and shot him in the face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) That is your opinion and you are entitled to it as far as I am concerned(my opinion)if somebody is in my house at night,uninvited, my family is at risk do I give them the opportunity to get the jump on me yes he may have broken in to steal the keys of my car am I going to take the risk.What do you think.In one breath folk on here are saying Tony Martin is nuts then you are saying he wriggled out of it,you can't have it both ways.Tony Martin was guilty of manslaughter.My view is Tony Martin did society a favour. You are not getting it he could of possibly got away with self defence if he had not shot them whan they were running away and no longer a threat it then went from defence to vengeance, there would be the matter of using an illegally obtained shotgun. The same applies if what you posted above happened, if they were in your house and you felt your family or your life was at risk then you could use lethal force but if they ran outside your house and you shot them through the window that would be unreasonable force. Edited February 14, 2016 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) Er, there were three of them, they were armed with screwdrivers, crowbars and knives. How fair a bloody fight do you want? He had been repeatedly burgled in the weeks prior to this happening, there had been no police activity in trying to find the burglars, there had been no increased patrols in the area, the man was in fear of losing his life. The people he shot turned out to be serial offenders who had committed multiple burglaries, had assaulted people during the course of those burglaries and also dealt in drugs. Hardly teenagers going through what they thought was an abandoned house! What is reasonable force against 3 people armed with crowbars, screwdrivers and knives then? He did not have enough time to get a baseball bat with nails in it made! Same post for you. You are not getting it either. You are not getting it he could of possibly got away with self defence if he had not shot them whan they were running away and no longer a threat it then went from defence to vengeance, there would be the matter of using an illegally obtained shotgun. If they were in your house and you felt your famaly or your life was at risk then you could use lethal force but if they ran outside your house and you shot them through the window that would be unreasonable force. Edited February 14, 2016 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 How the hell can you determine that they posed no threat? I bet if they found Martin asleep in bed his death would not have been all over the news as they would never have been caught, They travelled down from the Midlands to burgle him, they would have beat him to a pulp at the very least! Them trying to get away with their back to you would be a clue that they were no longer a threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretagentmole Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Them trying to get away with their back to you would be a clue that they were no longer a threat. Trying to get to where they dropped a gun? You never know! You are not getting it he could of possibly got away with self defence if he had not shot them whan they were running away and no longer a threat it then went from defence to vengeance, there would be the matter of using an illegally obtained shotgun. The same applies if what you posted above happened, if they were in your house and you felt your famaly or your life was at risk then you could use lethal force but if they ran outside your house and you shot them through the window that would be unreasonable force. They were in his house, they may have been going to where they had dropped a weapon. You don't seem to get the fact they should not have been in his property in the first place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 Trying to get to where they dropped a gun? You never know! They were in his house, they may have been going to where they had dropped a weapon. You don't seem to get the fact they should not have been in his property in the first place! No one is disputing that they should not have being in the house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 I trust that none of the people, who think he did no wrong, ever end up in the same situation. Their own Barrister would advise them not to speak, because they would end up proving the Prosecution case for them. Naïve doesn't even begin to hack it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) I trust that none of the people, who think he did no wrong, ever end up in the same situation. Their own Barrister would advise them not to speak, because they would end up proving the Prosecution case for them. Naïve doesn't even begin to hack it. Yes or post what they would do comments on a internet forum, knowing that if they did what posting it would be illegal. Edited February 14, 2016 by ordnance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 (edited) My last post on the subject. There are some seriously odd people posting on this matter. Sectionable springs to mind. never understand why people say that then continue Edited February 14, 2016 by digger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 digger - perhaps you have trouble thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 How the hell can you determine that they posed no threat? I bet if they found Martin asleep in bed his death would not have been all over the news as they would never have been caught, They travelled down from the Midlands to burgle him, they would have beat him to a pulp at the very least! Being shot in the back may be a clue. There is a very fine line between using lethal force because your life is in danger , and using lethal force on someone who at that precise time poses no threat to you. If your burglar is running away from you he poses no threat at that specific moment,you cannot use lethal force. There are many Soldiers who walked the streets of NI who had to make that same call, it was drummed into us in training for tours of Ireland that we had to be absolutely certain when we pulled the trigger that our life or the life of others was in imminent danger. If Martin had shot them as they came up the stairs toward him there would have been a different outcome to his trial,but he still would have been sentenced for holding a n illegal weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted February 14, 2016 Report Share Posted February 14, 2016 welsh1 - simply put, but there will be the odd one (and I mean these are very odd people) who can't grasp the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted February 15, 2016 Report Share Posted February 15, 2016 welsh1 - simply put, but there will be the odd one (and I mean these are very odd people) who can't grasp the difference. Have to agree with you Gordon,but I find it alarming what some have said on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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