Physical Ability vs Mental Strength

[Danger-Mouse]

In the Overchoking thread http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/333346-overchoking/

 

I made this comment to the OP.

 

. . . Going back to your OP. I knew why you were suggesting it and the idea intrigues me. Why not give it a go and see if it makes any improvement to your shooting?

 

Nicholas may be correct and it may not help. However whilst much of shooting is physical there`s no disputing there is a mental side to it too. So if as a result of practising with tighter chokes you feel more confident it may improve your scores.

 

Whether that improvement is physical or mental is really irrelevent . . .

 

 

To which Glenlivet replied

 

Not often I query you DM but I would suggest that, providing you have a modicum of talent, 80% of clay shooting is psychological.

It's all in the mind - obviously my problem!!

 

 

As I later replied I don`t really shoot competitions so it`s difficult for me to judge how important, or what percentage of shooting is mental/psychological. Or perhaps it applies to shooting as a whole, irrespective of whether it is a competition or not?

 

I thought it might make an interesting topic, so what are your thoughts?

[V8 90]

As a Trap shooter I would say a large percentage is mental ability - a respected shooter I know says 90% physiological, 8% ability & 2% luck

[fenboy]

I think as in any sport at the top level there has to be a large dose of natural talent to start with .

Training / coaching will get you so far but those at the top of their game have the natural talent , but they also have the correct mental attitude to get the results they do .

 

But you can have the best mental attitude in the world but without that natural talent your going nowhere.

[Smokersmith]

As a Trap shooter I would say a large percentage is mental ability - a respected shooter I know says 90% physiological, 8% ability & 2% luck

He's not far wrong in that ......

[Hamster]

The last 5-10% is mental, everything before that is knowledge, technique, application, experience, etc. In a hurry right now but might come back and explain how.

[Old farrier]

Hi

Not to sure about clay shooting scores however I have found when game shooting to do well you have to want to kill the bird each and every time

 

So I think there is a fair bit in your head

 

Just my thoughts

 

All the best

Of

[jayDT10]

Gun mount has to be almost robotic , having good judgement then memorizing it . And then bags of self confidence and concentration in wanting to smash each and every target . The only thing is you can only get all the above with firing lots of shells which nowadays means lots of money.

[malmick]

Tried automatic ball trap for the first time today and that was pretty much 100% psychological because I didn't hit much

Had a great time with the bunch of guys I shoot with though

 

 

Gun mount has to be almost robotic , having good judgement then memorizing it . And then bags of self confidence and concentration in wanting to smash each and every target . The only thing is you can only get all the above with firing lots of shells which nowadays means lots of money.

 

Have to say that after a good season on game and no clays I'm having to go back to basics on clays and I'll be doing it from a gun down position, so it'll all be in the mount. Only been shooting shotgun for just over a year and loving it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mick

[Glenlivet]

Case in point. 2 weeks ago I shot our club shoot and comfortably won my class, I felt really comfortable. Today, over a very similar course I really blew it. Targets I was obliterating 2 weeks ago were escaping me. Not a question of talent, technique or equipment, only that for some reason my head is in the wrong place.

 

If you think about skeet, most of us can hit all the targets. They're very predictable(usually) and not difficult. So why don't we all clean the layout every time we shoot? It's all in the mind, and I know my biggest problem is overthinking the targets, especially after a couple of misses, at which point it all goes down the toilet - like today -:(((

[buze]

Actually yes, in my experience overthinking is a sure way to miss. The best way is to clear your mind and not think about it at all! And if you miss a pair, try to 'reset' the shooting routine.

 

To me there is quite a bit of physiological -- I think having excellent muscles for the shoulders, back, and forearm will help you getting consistent mounting, quicker, and for longer -- but then the mental aspect is the one to let your holistic/primitive brain take over and do what it's really good at: ie, throwing stuff at things that are moving.

[fenboy]

Case in point. 2 weeks ago I shot our club shoot and comfortably won my class, I felt really comfortable. Today, over a very similar course I really blew it. Targets I was obliterating 2 weeks ago were escaping me. Not a question of talent, technique or equipment, only that for some reason my head is in the wrong place.

 

If you think about skeet, most of us can hit all the targets. They're very predictable(usually) and not difficult. So why don't we all clean the layout every time we shoot? It's all in the mind, and I know my biggest problem is overthinking the targets, especially after a couple of misses, at which point it all goes down the toilet - like today -:(((

But it was not your head in the wrong place , it was the shot

[Hamster]

But it was not your head in the wrong place , it was the shot

 

For real.

[Wymondley]

I'd say It wont matter how much physical ability you have if your minds not on it.

However mental ability can over ride a lack of physical ability.

[Hamster]

I'd say It wont matter how much physical ability you have if your minds not on it.

However mental ability can over ride a lack of physical ability.

 

How ?

[fenboy]

I'd say It wont matter how much physical ability you have if your minds not on it.

However mental ability can over ride a lack of physical ability.

 

If that were the case then surely people in wheelchairs would get up and walk ?

[Wymondley]

 

If that were the case then surely people in wheelchairs would get up and walk ?

Some do, and often it's mental determination that makes them do it.

My point was, that if your gun mount or stance aren't perfect but you have it in your head that you're going to hit something you probably will.

Just an opinion.

[grrclark]

At all levels in all sports success is won and lost in the top 2 or 3 inches of the body.

 

Of course there must be a physical capability to play the game, but how that physical capability is exploited, or otherwise, is all mental.

[Hamster]

But it was not your head in the wrong place , it was the shot

 

Never a truer word spoken. Firstly let me state categorically that I am not denying the importance of the mental game but dandy one liners about it contributing hugely to our scores are just wishful thinking, a crutch if you will, just another excuse to miss in reality.

 

If powers of concentration, belief, confidence and mental zoning were as powerful as some seem to believe then by logical conclusion we'd have to believe that simply grabbing hold of someone at the very top of another game would all but guarantee that they could be turned into world class shots within a short few weeks which of course they can't.

 

Just look around at the misses of the beginner, intermediate and advanced shots and the pattern is near identical in that misses tend to come on the same birds and will catch them out unawares. To win at say AA level you need a near clean run of the stands, that means you cannot afford more than 1 or 2 misses on the odd stand and you need plenty of straights. Week in week out most such shots will get a few straights and nines but suddenly and inexplicably (to them) drop 3 on one or more stands, targets which they have shot successfully before suddenly evade them (this happens when they have no trouble hitting the first or second of the pair so clearly mental ability hasn't deserted them but technical ABILITY has) , they miss because they lack method, application, technique, tempo, confidence, target reading, in fact almost anything but mental because Bruce Lee himself wouldn't make a difference if he'd held your hand because you cannot HIT that target, YOU cannot place the pattern on THAT target, the fault is you not your zen.

 

In fact evidence suggests that even world class shooters whose mental prowess you simply cannot fault suffer from the same score sapping problem, a few years ago GD missed all four Teal on a certain stand at the Essex Masters which he went on to describe as possibly costing him the win, now you're not suggesting that his mental game let him down ? Of course not, he just missed THAT bird.

 

A few days ago I shot a fairly hard course on a ground I don't often visit and my low score included several repeat misses of the same birds including a full house miss on a fast R/L Midi - it was ME that couldn't hit them, if the psychological game was to blame it would have meant me missing the other bird too at least once but I didn't, instead I pulverised them because for me they were easy. I lacked knowledge and technique on the ones I missed.

 

The psychological gains are right at the end, possibly only really affecting the outcome for the top 1% who frequently find themselves in shoot offs for big titles and big prizes. Mere mortals have infinitely more targets to gain by trying to master the bread and butter side first.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Hamster

[grrclark]

The psychological gains are right at the end, possibly only really affecting the outcome for the top 1% who frequently find themselves in shoot offs for big titles and big prizes. Mere mortals have infinitely more targets to gain by trying to master the bread and butter side first.

 

Agree with your post with exception of this. I think the right mental approach makes a difference at all levels, it is being able to make the most of the abilities and talents you have at any level.

 

Of course a highly tuned mental approach will not turn a duffer into a world champion, but it will turn them into a better duffer, as will coaching, structured practice, experience, etc.

 

In your example with GD above, he may have missed the 4 straight teals that cost him the win on that occasion, but it didn't cause a collapse in his form or a crisis of confidence his mental strength allowed him to accept the loss, learn from it and move on.

 

I think that is the real benefit of mental strength, it doesn't prevent you getting beat by someone better on the day or by someone with greater technical capability, but it does help to stop you losing by being a muppet.

[Hamster]

 

Agree with your post with exception of this. I think the right mental approach makes a difference at all levels, it is being able to make the most of the abilities and talents you have at any level.

 

Of course a highly tuned mental approach will not turn a duffer into a world champion, but it will turn them into a better duffer, as will coaching, structured practice, experience, etc.

 

In your example with GD above, he may have missed the 4 straight teals that cost him the win on that occasion, but it didn't cause a collapse in his form or a crisis of confidence his mental strength allowed him to accept the loss, learn from it and move on.

 

I think that is the real benefit of mental strength, it doesn't prevent you getting beat by someone better on the day or by someone with greater technical capability, but it does help to stop you losing by being a muppet.

 

I'm glad you agree with some of my points, I was careful to use the phrase : only affecting the outcome for the top 1% for the very reason that you mention.

 

We could compile a list of DO's that would have to include things such as concentration, tempo, focus, routine, positive mental attitude, key personalised phrases to instil confidence, etc, but my point is that these are not to be confused or elevated to the heady heights of psychological game plan quite simply because (for most) more misses by far are the consequence of lack of ability and method, not mental preparedness (which I again absolutely agree is necessary too).

 

Mental resolve will help you in an important shoot off against the best but it won't have helped you get there hitting the targets will have. If you look at the highest scores on the day they share a common, undeniable trait, they don't go and miss the easy or even medium stuff , it is application that ensures those are hit not psychology. Hit all the easy and medium ones and rest assured the odd miss on the really hard ones won't matter because you will still be in the money, more times than not.

[Junkyard Dog]

Mental V Physical, have a look at how the Americans train.... (This is based on the US coaching for OT)

 

Physical:

Learn every target from every scheme, shoot them till you can hit 25 of each target then move to next, (15 traps, with 10 schemes, so 150 different varaibles), they shoot target 1, scheme 1, until the straight is achieved, any misses mean a new start...

Shoot in different lights, i.e different times of day

Practice at least 5 times a week

Gun mounting, 20 minutes every day, this is about building up a muscle memory.

Patterning the gun, looking at point of impact before the actual pattern.

A diary is kept, as with all top end sportsmen.

 

Mental:

Eye exercises, training the eyes to focus where and when you want them, so distractions dont come into play

Then mental training, how to block everything apart from kill the target, they will sit in a room every night with a caly and visualize every shot, whilst holding the target, from stepping onto the mark, loading the shells, mounting the gun and killing the target.

With the all important positive affirmation on every shot, whether its a kill or loss. (this is very important)

On a comp day, they will have run through this shoot loads of times, before they even arrive at the ground, so it is all second nature, everything is done subconsiously, they dont have to think about it. When on the actual layout, they (and all good top end shooters) look like they are on auto pilot, (its because they are), they have shot each of these variations of target 1000's of times, they do it all automatically, and at the end of every shot they give themselves a positive thought, be it I loaded my gun well to that was killed well.

 

If you start using negatives on a stand, you will go downhill, because that lets the doubt creep in and bingo day finished, positive attitude will keep you on track.

 

There is loads more, but that is the basics, so first you need to learn the physical side and learn how to shoot any target, then work on the mental side, so that in a comp you are working from your subconscious thoughts ( they are better than you trying to rationalize the shot), so its 75% physical when you are starting out, but I would say it swings to 50-50 once you have got the gist of whats happening.

 

A good book to look at, if you want to study the mental side, is With Winning in Mind, by Larry Bassham, he won the Olympics for rifle, using mental skills to go with basic ability...

[grrclark]

Agree Hamster there are loads of components to success and belief in itself will never be enough.

 

Maybe my point is better made by arguing the other way, the wrong mental attitude will almost certainly cause you to lose if competing amongst equals. I think that is a more appropriate way to describe where i'm coming from, it is so easy to handicap yourself by having a bad attitude no matter what your capabilities are.

 

How often have we watched genuine world class talent blow up through the disbelief demons setting up camp in the mind?

[Hamster]

Agree Hamster there are loads of components to success and belief in itself will never be enough.

 

Maybe my point is better made by arguing the other way, the wrong mental attitude will almost certainly cause you to lose if competing amongst equals. I think that is a more appropriate way to describe where i'm coming from, it is so easy to handicap yourself by having a bad attitude no matter what your capabilities are.

 

How often have we watched genuine world class talent blow up through the disbelief demons setting up camp in the mind?

 

Visualisation of a positive outcome is key before stepping into a stand, once there the mechanics are extremely important.

Mental V Physical, have a look at how the Americans train.... (This is based on the US coaching for OT)

 

Physical:

Learn every target from every scheme, shoot them till you can hit 25 of each target then move to next, (15 traps, with 10 schemes, so 150 different varaibles), they shoot target 1, scheme 1, until the straight is achieved, any misses mean a new start...

Shoot in different lights, i.e different times of day

Practice at least 5 times a week

Gun mounting, 20 minutes every day, this is about building up a muscle memory.

Patterning the gun, looking at point of impact before the actual pattern.

A diary is kept, as with all top end sportsmen.

 

Mental:

Eye exercises, training the eyes to focus where and when you want them, so distractions dont come into play

Then mental training, how to block everything apart from kill the target, they will sit in a room every night with a caly and visualize every shot, whilst holding the target, from stepping onto the mark, loading the shells, mounting the gun and killing the target.

With the all important positive affirmation on every shot, whether its a kill or loss. (this is very important)

On a comp day, they will have run through this shoot loads of times, before they even arrive at the ground, so it is all second nature, everything is done subconsiously, they dont have to think about it. When on the actual layout, they (and all good top end shooters) look like they are on auto pilot, (its because they are), they have shot each of these variations of target 1000's of times, they do it all automatically, and at the end of every shot they give themselves a positive thought, be it I loaded my gun well to that was killed well.

 

If you start using negatives on a stand, you will go downhill, because that lets the doubt creep in and bingo day finished, positive attitude will keep you on track.

 

There is loads more, but that is the basics, so first you need to learn the physical side and learn how to shoot any target, then work on the mental side, so that in a comp you are working from your subconscious thoughts ( they are better than you trying to rationalize the shot), so its 75% physical when you are starting out, but I would say it swings to 50-50 once you have got the gist of whats happening.

 

A good book to look at, if you want to study the mental side, is With Winning in Mind, by Larry Bassham, he won the Olympics for rifle, using mental skills to go with basic ability...

Excellent post.

[EdSolomons]

The mental side of things is very much a "thing" to look at once you have pushed on past the majority of technical barriers, which takes some time.

I tend to encourage people to look at it once they are hitting mid 80s at registered level sporting shoots. As hamster says the VAST majority of misses are technical rather than mental, certainly at the club level.

The argument of "if I can hit one pair I should be able to straight the stand" doesn't really hold water, as you can pretty much hit a pair of targets with a bit of hand to eye coordination and timing, however true technical ability is when you can not only kill the pair, but understand exactly how you killed it and be able to repeat it.

No matter how "focussed" you are, if you are using an inherently inconsistent technique, that may well work on some days/birds but not others, then you will have inconsistent results. Anyone can have the odd "good" day where it all feels great, just as we all have the bad days where it feels awful. This is far more often a by product of poor technique rather than poor mental application.

[Danger-Mouse]

As hamster says the VAST majority of misses are technical rather than mental, certainly at the club level.

The argument of "if I can hit one pair I should be able to straight the stand" doesn't really hold water, as you can pretty much hit a pair of targets with a bit of hand to eye coordination and timing, however true technical ability is when you can not only kill the pair, but understand exactly how you killed it and be able to repeat it.

 

I was up at Pinewood Shooting Ground a couple of weeks ago. Haven`t been there for the better part of a year. It was a lovely sunny day, seven of us wandering round, having a laugh, taking the mick out of each other. I was shooting pretty well, not missing much. Now from my former visits there I have always had 2 stands that have given me problems (regulars can probably guess which before I even say).

 

At the far end of the lake there are 4 fast, pretty far out crossers. I`ve always struggled with them, usually happy if I hit even one of them. As we approached it I was telling one of the lads I hated the stand. Anyway I stepped up to shoot, nailed the first and second targets. The third I missed first shot but picked up with the second barrel and then I smoked the fourth bird.

 

A little later on we headed over to the high towers which again I`ve always struggled with. They present a couple of high driven targets. Took my turn in the cage and proceeded to hit both towers as singles. Shot the second set of targets and then asked for a pair off the towers. Bang, bang and it`s my first ever pair from the towers.

 

Now as I said I was shooting well that day but I really didn`t have much confidence when I stepped into the stands to face those nemesis targets. I suppose I did receive a bit of a confidence boost as I began to pick each one off but even so I was more than a little surprised to do so well.

 

I guess I`ll find out the next time we go up whether I can repeat that success. But in my mind it was down to my shooting ability and showed how much I`ve improved in the last year. The next time I shoot them I will have more confidence and that will no doubt help but in this case I believe technical ability was far more responsible than mental strength.