four-wheel-drive Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 My kids were like that,the schools fill their heads with the usual 'You wont be able to study abroad ,your parents wont love you ect' Till I showed them the error of their ways ! This is one of the reasons why I do not like the idea of changing the voting age to 16 as I do not trust there teachers not to talk them in to voting for what they decide is rite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I sat down with him last night and said that as I was undecided could he explain why he was in favour of staying. His response was: 1) In order to not disrupt the high level of trade between the UK and the rest of Europe. He did quote some numbers but I can't recall what they were 2) Britain's success over the past 40 years had been during our membership of the EU. There was no clear evidence that it would have been better or worse outside of the EU (the status quo argument) 3) Free movement of people works both ways and the majority of people who come to the UK work hard. He did accept that something needed to be done to reduce the attractiveness to people who come for the benefits alone. The status quite is going to be attractive for many, especially the younger ones who do not know of any difference. I could have picked holes in his argument but it wasn't a bad attempt for a (nearly) 12 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I sat down with him last night and said that as I was undecided could he explain why he was in favour of staying. His response was: 1) In order to not disrupt the high level of trade between the UK and the rest of Europe. He did quote some numbers but I can't recall what they were 2) Britain's success over the past 40 years had been during our membership of the EU. There was no clear evidence that it would have been better or worse outside of the EU (the status quo argument) 3) Free movement of people works both ways and the majority of people who come to the UK work hard. He did accept that something needed to be done to reduce the attractiveness to people who come for the benefits alone. The status quite is going to be attractive for many, especially the younger ones who do not know of any difference. I could have picked holes in his argument but it wasn't a bad attempt for a (nearly) 12 year old. Wow! 12 years old! Shame he can't vote. I continue to be staggered by the naivity of the argument that Germany and France are going to be bending over to renegotiate trade agreements with us post-British exit. No doubt when we get stuffed, all those who vote Brexit will be cursing the frenchies and sausage-eaters and would never consider themselves responsible for Britain's diminished status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Wow! 12 years old! Shame he can't vote. I continue to be staggered by the naivity of the argument that Germany and France are going to be bending over to renegotiate trade agreements with us post-British exit. No doubt when we get stuffed, all those who vote Brexit will be cursing the frenchies and sausage-eaters and would never consider themselves responsible for Britain's diminished status. And why should we trade with them... Why should either bend over.. There is more to this world than Germany and France.. Or are they the only countries we should deal with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Wow! 12 years old! Shame he can't vote. I continue to be staggered by the naivity of the argument that Germany and France are going to be bending over to renegotiate trade agreements with us post-British exit. No doubt when we get stuffed, all those who vote Brexit will be cursing the frenchies and sausage-eaters and would never consider themselves responsible for Britain's diminished status. And I continue to be staggered by those who don`t realise that much of the EU`s policy is pushed forward by lobbyists for big business. Yes there`s a chance we`ll face a tough time over the negotiating table, but it`s not clear cut which way it will go and those big export industries will be pushing for a favourable settlement. Follow the money is always the rule when you want to find out who is controlling things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 If the vote is leave, we wont leave for ten years, it will take that long to finalise the divorce. That's if we ever do actually leave because during that time Europe will have had a number of other exit votes as well. Europe will be keen to negotiate a 'EU Lite' arrangement to save face and keep the appearance of unity, they can't let us go, they need our money. I don't think even if the vote is to leave that we will ever actually exit and neither will the other countries that want out. Instead it may give us the upper hand to actually negotiate real terms instead of getting stonewalled by countries like Estonia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 With whose trade will we replace our trade with France and Germany and why will that third party treat us better alone than as part of the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Vince, your view on what will happen after a vote to leave glosses over what would be a godawful 10 years. Yes, if we vote to leave we may bring about the collapse of the whole project and the rest of Europe will suffer, and some of the states will suffer more than the UK, but that doesn't offer me the solace it seems other draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) With whose trade will we replace our trade with France and Germany and why will that third party treat us better alone than as part of the EU? What trade? what do they actually buy off us? We buy gas, electricity, food, wine, cars, motorbikes, white goods etc off them Edited June 17, 2016 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Right, it's simple. if farmers lose subsidies they go bust, if they go bust we have no food .............. do you really think any government would let possible voters starve? No ? Didn't think so. Ref the Euro fighter, do you think the French and germans will suddenly tool up and train workers elsewhere overnight .............. no? didn't think so. Plus the fact they still want to sell BMW's and Citroens over here We farmed well through WW11, we designed and built the Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster bomber, WE all pulled together. Do we need the EU? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Vince, your view on what will happen after a vote to leave glosses over what would be a godawful 10 years. Yes, if we vote to leave we may bring about the collapse of the whole project and the rest of Europe will suffer, and some of the states will suffer more than the UK, but that doesn't offer me the solace it seems other draw. I am not saying it won't be an awful ten years (read my other posts) but there is no way they are going to just say "OK see you around then" We are their meal ticket. The only solace I might draw from that is they may be forced to admit as much Edited June 17, 2016 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 We farmed well through WW11, we designed and built the Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster bomber, WE all pulled together. Do we need the EU? I don't think so. Yeah, that good ol' golden idyll of the 50s we'll magically be transported back to on the 24th. Who needs the rest of the subsequently-globally-connected world when you've got post-war determination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 With whose trade will we replace our trade with France and Germany and why will that third party treat us better alone than as part of the EU? Why do we need to lose the trade with France and Germany? Do you seriously believe that on the 24th ,they will send us a dear John,nice knowing you ect. No more BMWs,VWs ,Mercs ? What kind of economic argument would support that? I see the news that Switzerland withdrawing its membership application barely made the news,funny that. What was it they said 'Only lunatic countries would consider joining the EU in its present state' A very damning assessment no ? But then who are they to speak ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 And why should we trade with them... Why should either bend over.. There is more to this world than Germany and France.. Or are they the only countries we should deal with? Nothing to stop us negotiating with other countries but when the EU negotiates a deal its comprehensive. They have included liberalisation of trade in services something very hard to achieve without scale. The deals the EU has completed are generally far better than those achieved by countries outside of a block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 What trade? what do they actually buy off us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Yeah, that good ol' golden idyll of the 50s we'll magically be transported back to on the 24th. Who needs the rest of the subsequently-globally-connected world when you've got post-war determination? So Brexit disconnects us from the world? As well as WW3 and the end of 'End of western political civilisation' Recession should the least of our worries then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 So Brexit disconnects us from the world? As well as WW3 and the end of 'End of western political civilisation' Recession should the least of our worries then. Brexit is hardly signing up for broadband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted June 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 With whose trade will we replace our trade with France and Germany and why will that third party treat us better alone than as part of the EU? In 2014, the United Kingdom exported $472B and imported $663B, resulting in a negative trade balance of $191B. The top export destinations of the United Kingdom are the United States ($51B), Germany ($46.5B), the Netherlands ($34.2B), Switzerland ($33.6B) and France ($27B). The top import origins are Germany ($100B), China ($62.7B), the Netherlands ($50.7B), the United States ($44.4B) and France ($41.5B). So we export roughly $74 billion to Germany and France whilst their combined trade in exports with us is $142 billion. Doesn`t make a lot of sense to apply tariffs when it`s going to hit you twice as hard does it? The top exports of the United Kingdom are Cars ($46B). Its top imports are Cars ($47.3B). Well that pretty much evens out. Maybe people will just have to get used to driving cars made here and give up on the German models? Doesn`t sound so bad to me, supporting British industry rather than someone else`s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Doesn`t make a lot of sense to apply tariffs when it`s going to hit you twice as hard does it? It does when you can quite easily switch trading partners to someone still in your club, whereas your former trading partner has just cut themselves out of the largest trading bloc in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 It does when you can quite easily switch trading partners to someone still in your club, whereas your former trading partner has just cut themselves out of the largest trading bloc in history. Yes that works,maybe Greece,Croatia or Bulgaria could make up the shortfall in the £48 bn of lost German car sales to the UK ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 So Brexit disconnects us from the world? As well as WW3 and the end of 'End of western political civilisation' Recession should the least of our worries then. So out of repercussions of Brexit A, B, and C, because A isn't as bad as B and C it should be discounted? Seriously - have a read. Your arguments defeat themselves before anyone else even has to start typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 So out of repercussions of Brexit A, B, and C, because A isn't as bad as B and C it should be discounted? Seriously - have a read. Your arguments defeat themselves before anyone else even has to start typing. I was being sarcastic at your comment. You really need to read the chain of discussion rather than just listening to yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granett Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 The top imports are Cars ($47.3B). £48 bn of lost German car sales to the UK ? Do you want to come back when you've decided which it is? I was being sarcastic at your comment. You really need to read the chain of discussion rather than just listening to yourself. Seriously? Another logical fallacy? You can't help yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) A lot of our trade to Germany is in the financial sector which doesn't put much food on the table of the average person. Not so sure about France but you don't see many British made cars on their roads or British made goods in their shops Edited June 17, 2016 by Vince Green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Do you want to come back when you've decided which it is? Seriously? Another logical fallacy? You can't help yourself. Youre doing that thing again ,where you dont really know how to answer something. Next you'll be rattling on about Pastafarianism or Spaghetti monsters Edited June 17, 2016 by Rewulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts