Jay_Russell Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 A bit of a random purchase but saw this sitting there all sad, and I do miss not having sbs in the cabinet so.. I just had to buy it as it was only a few quid. It needs the barrels re bluing and a bit of love on the woodwork. I know a few company's made guns for army & navy.. so as I wait for info from Glasgow uni achieves any one care to add some knowledge? #68220 pretty sure the second pic is Birmingham proof marks ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisdom Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Will be.nice when done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 What a lovely old gun. The history will be interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted December 30, 2016 Report Share Posted December 30, 2016 Still lots of case hardening left on the action , perhaps a gun which has spent a lot of its life in case or cabinet. Nice though. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Birmingham proof marks, I'd say 1925 - 54 era. I've a reprint of the A&N catalogue 1939 if you'd like electronic copies of the shotgun pages, might be of interest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Chris have to disagree with your dating .Under 1925 rules chamber length was marked as well as load so this is pre 1925 . From what I can see from the photo it has some of the hallmarks of a Webley , but the Greener style lever and cross bolt do give some doubt . That said W & S did make a number of variations of action and this could be one . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Oops, missed that one, yes I agree it's 1904 - 25 Birmingham (assuming the chamber length is not just invisible in the photo). My Midland Gun Company SxS has a Greener cross bolt, it was apparently offered by other manufacturers and the MGC catalogue of 1914 specifically offers it "to order". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Looks like a Merkel, Anson deely boxlock ejector, double underlug with a Kirsten or greneer cross bolt lock. That's very European. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted December 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 (edited) Chris have to disagree with your dating .Under 1925 rules chamber length was marked as well as load so this is pre 1925 . From what I can see from the photo it has some of the hallmarks of a Webley , but the Greener style lever and cross bolt do give some doubt . That said W & S did make a number of variations of action and this could be one . It doesn't have the chamber length stamped on the flats or anywhere else, so I also assume it's pre 1925. One of out shoot chaps today recalls seeing one he had worked on many years ago ( retired stocker ) and that gun was an anson deeley game gun but sold as an army & navey csl and engraved with that. Personally I'm going with Webley But who knows.. for £200 quid I'm very happy with it indeed. No idea if I over paid but 28 inch barrels bit of choke, nice wood and string ejectors im really loving it. I'll maybe attempt to re oil the stock myself but the bluing I'll get it done by the chap that posted earlier. Edited December 31, 2016 by Jay_Russell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 For £200 it appears a bargain! If the bores still measure close to what it was proofed at ie .729? it could be a really good bargain! If you are planning to have work done on it?............be sure to insist on retaining any and all of the original finish currently left! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) Looks like a Merkel, Anson deely boxlock ejector, double underlug with a Kirsten or greneer cross bolt lock. That's very European. Sorry No definitely not German , Belgian or European manufacture . I have had a lot of experience of Merkel guns which followed the "standard " Shul design . This is British Birmingham made . Edited January 1, 2017 by Gunman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 Here's mine (1st go trying photobucket so fingers crossed). 61411 sold to Captain Withers in 1922 Bought it as my 1st sbs and getting on pretty well with it ... 30", 1/4 and 1/2 The stock has been cast to RH, dents raised, had a new pad fitted and partially finished all by myself over the summer. Will get the barrels done this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 There's a gun very similar to that in the A&N 1939 catalogue, complete with Greener bolt, listed as the Army & Navy "Anson" hammerless ejector gun, it's engraved Army & Navy CSL. It cost then £25 which equates to about £1,250 today. Maker not named but it will be British as anything not British was marked "foreign" to let you know it was of inferior quality! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 There's a gun very similar to that in the A&N 1939 catalogue, complete with Greener bolt, listed as the Army & Navy "Anson" hammerless ejector gun, it's engraved Army & Navy CSL. It cost then £25 which equates to about £1,250 today. Maker not named but it will be British as anything not British was marked "foreign" to let you know it was of inferior quality! The price >v < what someone would have earnt back then. My grandfather was a manager of a builders merchant back in 1939 and he would have been lucky to get £5 a week which is in the region of £250 a year. Here is a rough amount of what people earn't back then found on the web. >> In 1940, the yearly wages of the following group of people were as follows:- farm labourer, £90 - skilled engineer, £148 - Battle of Britain pilot, started at £340. and these were for a year ! so that gun would have been a big outlay for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted January 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 The price >v < what someone would have earnt back then. My grandfather was a manager of a builders merchant back in 1939 and he would have been lucky to get £5 a week which is in the region of £250 a year. Here is a rough amount of what people earn't back then found on the web. >> In 1940, the yearly wages of the following group of people were as follows:- farm labourer, £90 - skilled engineer, £148 - Battle of Britain pilot, started at £340. and these were for a year ! so that gun would have been a big outlay for anyone. Thank you so much, that's so interesting. There's a gun very similar to that in the A&N 1939 catalogue, complete with Greener bolt, listed as the Army & Navy "Anson" hammerless ejector gun, it's engraved Army & Navy CSL. It cost then £25 which equates to about £1,250 today. Maker not named but it will be British as anything not British was marked "foreign" to let you know it was of inferior quality! I'm really enjoying all this information. I did try and research on the web but you guys know your stuff! Here's mine (1st go trying photobucket so fingers crossed). 61411 sold to Captain Withers in 1922 Bought it as my 1st sbs and getting on pretty well with it ... 30", 1/4 and 1/2 The stock has been cast to RH, dents raised, had a new pad fitted and partially finished all by myself over the summer. Will get the barrels done this summer. Terrific ! I hope I get some information about mine when they get back to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted January 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 OK the last three pics I promise.. I really love my little piece of history so forgive my excitedness. I couldn't be more happy even if it was a Purdey used by the king. I had my first shot with it today, an arrow straight fast pigeon about thirty yard's high, an easy shot but still I had a lovely feeling as I swung through and pulled the trigger, then to see it fold and drop. I had a smile on my face all day! Photobucket kills the quality bit the originals are lovely and sharp and on my instagram If anyone is interested. Jpr.Esq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted January 1, 2017 Report Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) that is nice. It does the job that it was made to do back in the thirties just as well now and it looks the part in your hands. the web page that I got the wages information from has been an interesting read from the North East area durring the war years. the rations and the food ect but the wages did go up. There was a bit about 1945 how women teachers wanted the same a male teachers and Churchill blocked it saying that the were impertinent. . I bet that, that would go down real well now. An ounce of chesse per week. http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/Bck/Events.html Edited January 1, 2017 by fortune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 that is nice. It does the job that it was made to do back in the thirties just as well now and it looks the part in your hands. the web page that I got the wages information from has been an interesting read from the North East area durring the war years. the rations and the food ect but the wages did go up. There was a bit about 1945 how women teachers wanted the same a male teachers and Churchill blocked it saying that the were impertinent. . I bet that, that would go down real well now. An ounce of chesse per week. http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/Bck/Events.html The A&N 1939 catalogue lists shotguns from £13.10.0 to £90 with a hammer gun "suitable for keepers" at £6.15.0. The price comparison I used was the official inflation figures from then to now, but, as has been shown, wages were much lower and bought less then. It's interesting that guns have roughly kept their value when compared this way although wages have risen. The opposite of this is cartridges which are now comparatively much cheaper, an average box of 25 then cost £0.4.0 = £10 today. And we complain about today's costs! If anybody would like copies of these A&N pages do PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzicat Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Very nice, I like that you used what seems to be a "Silvers " style buttpad, my £15 A & N, is still in occasional use 'til season end when I will start a sympathetic restoration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 OK the last three pics I promise.. I really love my little piece of history so forgive my excitedness. I couldn't be more happy even if it was a Purdey used by the king. I had my first shot with it today, an arrow straight fast pigeon about thirty yard's high, an easy shot but still I had a lovely feeling as I swung through and pulled the trigger, then to see it fold and drop. I had a smile on my face all day! Photobucket kills the quality bit the originals are lovely and sharp and on my instagram If anyone is interested. Jpr.Esq What no multi chokes ! Not a 3&1/2" magnum ! less than 32" barrels and you managed to hit something at 30 yards ? Woww amazing . Is this the future ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 What no multi chokes ! Not a 3&1/2" magnum ! less than 32" barrels and you managed to hit something at 30 yards ? Woww amazing . Is this the future ? I know!! And with 28g of no6 hull imperial game.. im suprises I even knocked a feather out of it 😂😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 What no multi chokes ! Not a 3&1/2" magnum ! less than 32" barrels and you managed to hit something at 30 yards ? Woww amazing . Is this the future ? Yep this could be the way forward. You never know that one day we could even have barrels as short as 25 inches and double triggers firing 1-1/8 of #6 bringing down the highest sporting driven pheasants and the lowest, fastest grouse like they used to. Without kicking like the proverbial mule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Best get out and buy a nice AYA 25 before they become trendy again as we know it's bound to happen in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_Russell Posted January 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 Best get out and buy a nice AYA 25 before they become trendy again as we know it's bound to happen in the future. Indeed !! I sold my aya xxv sidelock last year to a chap on here. I'm glad it went to a good home. I could shoot with it but needed a decent over under more as I was getting stick from the guys in the shoot for one or two erm... misses of mercy!! 25 inch barrels really do need a fine shooter to master the handling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted January 2, 2017 Report Share Posted January 2, 2017 I have shot for over 50 years and have never, not once, used anything but a SBS for game shooting and over those 50 years I have shot most quarry from Pigeon through to Ptarmigan....and despite all the O/U's others are using, I have never felt undergunned! Up until the Lead shot ban for wildfowling I used a 3" double full choked SBS magnum (which I still occasionally use with suitable non tox shot) I now use a 3 1/2" S/A, I have a couple of Browning O/U' in the cabinet, but never take them out! Except perhaps for a club clay shoot once or twice a year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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