NHS: An unsubstantiated theory

[12gauge82]

That was introduce to stop people going out and buying them with the intent of overdosing/committing suicide I believe.

Apparently 32 in one go harms the liver but doesn't kill, whereas 64 will.

I do stand to be corrected by those truely in the know.

Another peice of well thought out goverment legislation (not), if you were going to top yourself you could just go to a couple of different shops, I think the world's gone mad sometimes. Edited January 13, 2017 by 12gauge82

[Jaymo]

Another peice of well thought out goverment legislation (not), if you were going to top yourself you could just go to a couple of different shops, I think the world's gone mad sometimes.

Same for me at work- were subject to the same security at various Airports as normal passengers.

Times I have been pulled up for stupid things like not having hand gel in a plastic 1l bag etc.

 

Bizarrely they never confiscate my 50 ton plane with 13ton of flammable liquid that I have free reign in :-) , did I tell you about how many improvised weapons there are on board too

 

Back to topic, if restricting the sales of the likes of Paracetamol stops just one Suicide then I'm happy - have had family friend take his life.

Having to 'shop around' to build up supplies might just be enough to put someone off

[daveboy]

Non English speaking people don't use the NHS.

If they did the NHS would have to spend Millions on Leaflets in ten different languages.......Oh wait a minute..

[guest1957]

Another peice of well thought out goverment legislation (not), if you were going to top yourself you could just go to a couple of different shops, I think the world's gone mad sometimes.

43% reduction in paracetamol related deaths: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

 

Obviously complete madness.

 

Additionally, a 61% reduction in those requiring a transplant for paracetamol induced liver damage. Death from liver failure weeks or months after a 'failed' suicide attempt is awful for those who have lost the resolve to die and should also be prevented.

 

In the event you need more than 32 you can still have a chat with a pharmacist and buy 100 of you have a good reason e.g. Are buying instead of using the prescription process

Edited January 13, 2017 by guest1957

[12gauge82]

43% reduction in paracetamol related deaths: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

 

Obviously complete madness.

Well as always I stand ready to be corrected, I'd be amazed if these people didn't simply kill themselves in other ways instead, but like Jaymo said if it saves even one life which according to that report it does a lot more than that, it's worth it.

[four-wheel-drive]

This bed blocking did not happen when I was young back in the 1960s when I was seventeen I had a bone disease in one of my legs I spent ten weeks in all in hospital the first four weeks in the locale general hospital where I had a big chunk cut out of my leg then I was sent to the local cottage hospital in my home town.

 

While I waited for a calliper to be made to keep my leg supported and straight while the bone grew back again I did not need any treatment just bed rest in those days that was the way that it was done you got the treatment in the big hospitals and then went nearer your home until you was fit and could go home or if they could not cure you to die.

 

Then we got the so called care in the community so they shut down all of the local hospitals and mental units but we never got the care in the community to replace it the fact is it is to expensive to have nurses and care assistants all over the place I think small local hospitals do it much better but what do I no.

[iano]

43% reduction in paracetamol related deaths: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

 

Obviously complete madness.

 

I stand corrected - I always thought it was brought in by the drugs companies.

My bad.

[iano]

43% reduction in paracetamol related deaths: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

 

Obviously complete madness.

 

Actually, that study wouldn't pass a graduate level project.

The data published seems to suggest that there was a drop in both overall suicide rates and paracetemol rates before the legislation was brought in.

 

The regression tests they perform (but don't publish) are time series tests on non-stationary data, no mention of how they control for this.

 

I'm not saying it didn't save some lives, but overall, it seems to be actually statistically insignificant in terms of UK suicide rates.

[12gauge82]

 

Actually, that study wouldn't pass a graduate level project.

The data published seems to suggest that there was a drop in both overall suicide rates and paracetemol rates before the legislation was brought in.

 

The regression tests they perform (but don't publish) are time series tests on non-stationary data, no mention of how they control for this.

 

I'm not saying it didn't save some lives, but overall, it seems to be actually statistically insignificant in terms of UK suicide rates.

As I've already stated, something I know very little about, although common sense would say that it would be unlikely to deter someone who wants to kill themselves when they could simply go to a few shops or even round a few different checkouts in a big supermarket. Edited January 13, 2017 by 12gauge82

[wandringstar]

a great idea, but such a shame that the sheer selfishness of a high percentage of people, with their ridiculous demands and expectations of it, and the craven politicians who have bowed to these demands, have seen it become an unsustainable monster.

 

gastric bands,

i.v.f.

gender reassignment,

alcohol/drug treatment,

health tourists,

people who will never contribute,

over paid management,

rip off drug prices,

patient litigation,

 

in a nutshell, it has been allowed to go way off scope.

 

to name but a few problems.

[guest1957]

43% reduction in paracetamol related deaths: http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f403

 

Obviously complete madness.

 

Additionally, a 61% reduction in those requiring a transplant for paracetamol induced liver damage. Death from liver failure weeks or months after a 'failed' suicide attempt is awful for those who have lost the resolve to die and should also be prevented.

 

In the event you need more than 32 you can still have a chat with a pharmacist and buy 100 of you have a good reason e.g. Are buying instead of using the prescription process

[Wb123]

a great idea, but such a shame that the sheer selfishness of a high percentage of people, with their ridiculous demands and expectations of it, and the craven politicians who have bowed to these demands, have seen it become an unsustainable monster.

 

gastric bands, The most cost effective elective surgical intervention for reducing costs down the line... Possibly best value for money after vaccinations in healthcare.

i.v.f. Im with you here, these people should be adopting and saving both on health and social budgets.

gender reassignment, Also a huge money saver vs the psychiatric costs incurred with non treatment

alcohol/drug treatment, Harder to quantify, a tricky one. Huge crime related costs in non treatment but questionably effective.

health tourists, Again with you here, prepayment all the way.

people who will never contribute, Last I heard the point at which we start paying our own way was earning about £40k a year, the vast bulk of people dont contribute as much as they take.

over paid management, Insufficient senior management is arguably a large part of the need for spending so much on consultancy. The kings fund review on nhs management went as far as to suggest more senior management would be a cost saver on having to contract it in.

rip off drug prices, Take a look at the margins across big pharma and compare to other 'rip off' merchants, then tell me where the huge returns on my pharma stocks are hiding...

patient litigation, Huge issue, the yanks have a lot to answer for.

 

in a nutshell, it has been allowed to go way off scope.

 

to name but a few problems.

Not as simple as it looks sadly. I have answered each point in the quote but cant change the font. Edited January 13, 2017 by Wb123

[UKPoacher]

Not as simple as it looks sadly. I have answered each point in the quote but cant change the font.

If you highlight your own points and then press the 'Bold Type' button it will help you separate your answers from the points made earlier.

[Wb123]

If you highlight your own points and then press the 'Bold Type' button it will help you separate your answers from the points made earlier.

Top bannana, many thanks.

[wandringstar]

Not as simple as it looks sadly. I have answered each point in the quote but cant change the font.

 

we aint a million miles away from each other

[Whatmuff]

Mmm good thread this one! I believe it's down to underfunding from the government, it's no where near funded enough to where it needs to be. It's a huge expense for not a lot at the moment. My mother is a special care baby nurse, has been a night nurse practitioner and now a senior practice nurse working in a doctors surgery for nearly 16 years, my father in law is a senior advisor for the NHS working on budgets and costs for various hospitals around the country. The NHS is in a **** state and needs either funding properly or start charging people that abuse the system or have no right to it. I lived in Cambridgeshire and the nearest hospital with an A and E and a baby delivery unit was over an hour away..... ***! They closed the few hospitals they had in the area, oh and placed nearly 100000 eastern European migrants into the local community's, so yes immigration plays a massive part to this in certain areas! When my wife had our baby last year we were waiting in a room for an operation for 3 hours with the baby's life at risk! And in our delivery suite every bed was full and there were at least half all foreign, nothing against that but immigration is a factor whether you like it or not. My mother on a daily basis in her surgery is spending a fortune on telephone interpretation peogle for the different foreign patients she has come in every day and demand drugs free of charge and for the statements for their benefit payments. So immigration DOES play a big part. We have no money left in the UK, the government in running on empty and the NHS, Fire service, Police service and Military is on its knees. Where that extra cash is going to appear from when the VAT is at its highest and debt is over 2 trillion I have no idea, going to be an interesting time ahead. But what ever the outcome we are still extremely lucky to have the services and people today.

[poontang]

The NHS has become akin to a religion in this country. God forbid anyone should criticise it or look at any form of fundamental change.

 

The NHS was set up nearly 70 years ago... if it's such a good system why has no other country followed in its path?

 

It's cumbersome, unwieldy, wasteful and expensive. Time to ditch it and look at better alternatives.

[12gauge82]

The NHS has become akin to a religion in this country. God forbid anyone should criticise it or look at any form of fundamental change.

 

The NHS was set up nearly 70 years ago... if it's such a good system why has no other country followed in its path?

 

It's cumbersome, unwieldy, wasteful and expensive. Time to ditch it and look at better alternatives.

I don't know, it's worked up untill now, and in my view has been the best health care system in the world as it provides a free service to everyone and not just those who can afford it. I currently have the top bupa package for me and family, so I'm not against those who can afford it to pay, just wonder what would happen to all those who couldn't as I'm sure no one would want to see a system like America, where the poorest can't get treatment for life threatening conditions. Edited January 14, 2017 by 12gauge82

[iano]

I don't know, it's worked up untill now, and in my view has been the best health care system in the world as it provides a free service to everyone and not just those who can afford it. I currently have the top bupa package for me and family, so I'm not against those who can afford it to pay, just wonder what would happen to all those who couldn't as I'm sure no one would want to see a system like America, where the poorest can't get treatment for life threatening conditions.

 

What does insurance get you in the UK?

[amateur]

My NHS story

 

I was walking the dogs yesterday morning and, within 20 yards of the front door, slipped on the black ice in the road and cracked my skull on the kerb.

I remember nothing more until I was sat in the house with my wife mopping my copiously bleeding skull.

Apparently I had phoned her on my mobile, saying that I was down, and she, and a delivery driver who had just turned up with our new bath suite, helped me indoors - as I said, I have no memory of this.

Our son-in-law came over to take me to the local A&E - wife had to stay in to await the plumber who was fitting the said suite.

The A&E wasn't crowded, a mix of fall injuries and worried parents with small babies.

I was triaged within 15 minutes and seen by a doctor within the hour.

The very attractive blonde doctor checked that my nervous system was working and organised a CAT-scan.

Another hour's wait, then into the tunnel.

Another hour's wait for the results - a working none-bleeding brain was found, much to my son-in-law's disbelief.

Another hour's wait, then a very pleasant Afro-Caribbean nurse practitioner cleaned the gore off my head and glued me back together.

 

So, overall, relatively quick and efficient.

[Jaymo]

Amateur

What are you like-- going to that length just to get the attention of a pretty lady!

 

Glad your ok though- no black ice in Menton

[12gauge82]

 

What does insurance get you in the UK?

Nearly everything the NHS does including cancer drugs that the NHS will not fund without the wait.

[poontang]

I don't know, it's worked up untill now, and in my view has been the best health care system in the world as it provides a free service to everyone and not just those who can afford it. I currently have the top bupa package for me and family, so I'm not against those who can afford it to pay, just wonder what would happen to all those who couldn't as I'm sure no one would want to see a system like America, where the poorest can't get treatment for life threatening conditions.

 

It hasn't worked well up until now. It's hardly ever worked well.

In every election I can remember the NHS has been in some sort of crisis, usually demanding, and getting, more funding yet still being in crisis at the following election. Money won't solve its problems. They're too deep and too numerous. A totally new system is required, and soon.

It's not, as you state, a free service, it's paid for by direct taxation, around 20% of your taxes pay for healthcare.

I never mentioned the US system, a system which is often used to scare people into believing the NHS is the best thing since sliced bread. Take a look at healthcare in France, Italy and the Netherlands, to name just a few, to see how poor our system is.

Using a combination of state and private funding to cover the nations health requirements is, in my opinion, the only sustainable option. Just throwing more money at the NHS never has, and never will work.

[12gauge82]

 

It hasn't worked well up until now. It's hardly ever worked well.

In every election I can remember the NHS has been in some sort of crisis, usually demanding, and getting, more funding yet still being in crisis at the following election. Money won't solve its problems. They're too deep and too numerous. A totally new system is required, and soon.

It's not, as you state, a free service, it's paid for by direct taxation, around 20% of your taxes pay for healthcare.

I never mentioned the US system, a system which is often used to scare people into believing the NHS is the best thing since sliced bread. Take a look at healthcare in France, Italy and the Netherlands, to name just a few, to see how poor our system is.

Using a combination of state and private funding to cover the nations health requirements is, in my opinion, the only sustainable option. Just throwing more money at the NHS never has, and never will work.

What does France ect do better than our NHS and would the poor still be able to get treatment? Also is it any different to just paying for private cover in the uk?

[poontang]

What does France ect do better than our NHS and would the poor still be able to get treatment? Also is it any different to just paying for private cover in the uk?

 

What does it do better?

Higher life expectancy, Lower infant mortality, Higher cancer survival rates, much lower waiting times, many more doctors per head of population, twice as many hospital beds, more nurses, half the obesity rates, much more choice in care and funding.

They use a hybrid system of state and insurance funding to which everyone has access.

It's not perfect, but it works for them. Others have used similar systems with similar results, something we need to be looking at for the future.

Unfortunately healthcare and the NHS in this country has become a political football with the two major parties constantly at loggerheads as to how it should progress. Labour seem to think it's somehow their own baby, and any attempt to deviate from it's now impending doom is seen as something only an evil Tory could ever even consider. The Tories, because they don't want to be known as the 'nasty party' largely follow the script and are seen to throw money in whilst not dealing with the underlying issues.

The NHS was founded on the private sector, and most GP's, dentists, opticians and consultants are still self employed but contracted to the NHS. 'Privatisation' is nothing new in the NHS. Add to them all the portering and catering services and of course the PFI initiatives and it's clear that a lot of our taxes earmarked for the NHS are also lining the pockets of plenty of businesses and individuals. Don't get me wrong, I don't generally have a problem with this, however I do believe that whilst we know it goes on it would be better to have a proper debate, without the politics, and get these issues in the open so that we too can move forward to a system similar to the French ( and the Dutch, and the Germans, and the Swiss, the Japanese etc etc).