grrclark Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Gordon R said: For once we will have to absolutely disagree. Disagreeing is ok, it hopefully leads to good reasoned debate. Out of curiosity do you believe that someone who indulges in some recreational drug use is a greater threat with a gun than someone who doesn't? If so why? Signing out of this debate for tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Tell him what exactly? If you said to your FEO "I believe that the approach to drugs in this country is outdated, in effective and doesn't help anyone" he'd have a funny look on his face? I imagine he would considering its a very off topic conversation and he'd wonder why you brought that up Have you personally reported each gun you say have more than 1-2 drinks after a shoot day, or even worse on a shoot day during the lunch? Ive never witnessed anyone on a shoot drinking,but beleive me id shop them at a drop of a hat.Regarding drug use i surrendered my sons SGC/FAC because he became a so called 'recreational canabis user'.Licencing said if id of hidden the fact,my certs would of been revoked. 2 minutes ago, grrclark said: Disagreeing is ok, it hopefully leads to good reasoned debate. Out of curiosity do you believe that someone who indulges in some recreational drug use is a greater threat with a gun than someone who doesn't? If so why? Signing out of this debate for tonight. No i dont but drugs are illegal,the other none users who are numpties or hiding medical issues will hopefully get caught up with the the new medical procedure and any ither future lucencing enforcments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Davyo said: Ive never witnessed anyone on a shoot drinking,but beleive me id shop them at a drop of a hat.Regarding drug use i surrendered my sons SGC/FAC because he became a so called 'recreational canabis user'.Licencing said if id of hidden the fact,my certs would of been revoked. I can see why. Illegal activity is certainly not ok as I've said, we as firearms holders are burdened with being 'more law abiding' than the average person. Whiter than white. I do believe you mentioned your son's behaviour also took a turn for the worse? Sorry to hear mate. I hope things are going better now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 i'd like to see a mouth swab drug test by the FEO for every application/renewal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, silver pigeon69 said: Yes but my point is its "acceptable" to get slaughtered on drink and have a cert because its legal, even though it is probably a lot worse/more dangerous. But its not illegal just irresponsible to get slaughtered in beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Just now, andrewluke said: i'd like to see a mouth swab drug test by the FEO for every application/renewal Why? I'm sure that doesn't even detect a lot of drugs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Why? I'm sure that doesn't even detect a lot of drugs swabs used by police The law introduced in England and Wales two years ago set low limits for eight illegal drugs, including cannabis and cocaine, and higher levels for eight prescription drugs, including morphine and methadone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davyo Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: I can see why. Illegal activity is certainly not ok as I've said, we as firearms holders are burdened with being 'more law abiding' than the average person. Whiter than white. I do believe you mentioned your son's behaviour also took a turn for the worse? Sorry to hear mate. I hope things are going better now. To the point that i surrendered mine due to compromisation he started to cause.What starts off as recreational use doesnt stay recreational for long. These muppets arnt peddling the canabis of the 60/70's these days mate .I could well reconcil with the recreational use years back as people could take it or leave it. SORRY to everyone if i sounded a bit bitter,but i wouldnt wish what ive been through on anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 minute ago, andrewluke said: swabs used by police The law introduced in England and Wales two years ago set low limits for eight illegal drugs, including cannabis and cocaine, and higher levels for eight prescription drugs, including morphine and methadone. So we should all submit to handing over the Police our DNA to test at their will, even if we've done nothing wrong? People are already up in arms when the Police won't give them the calibre rifle they want despite having good reason and legal authority to apply for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said: So we should all submit to handing over the Police our DNA to test at their will, even if we've done nothing wrong? People are already up in arms when the Police won't give them the calibre rifle they want despite having good reason and legal authority to apply for it why would you need to hand over your DNA if you have not used any drugs?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, Davyo said: To the point that i surrendered mine due to compromisation he started to cause.What starts off as recreational use doesnt stay recreational for long. These muppets arnt peddling the canabis of the 60/70's these days mate .I could well reconcil with the recreational use years back as people could take it or leave it. SORRY to everyone if i sounded a bit bitter,but i wouldnt wish what ive been through on anybody. Despite your bad experiences, and I truly am sorry to hear about it, and genuinely hope your relationship with your son is on the mend, there are a lot of people out there who are able to use cannabis specifically without displaying a lot of aggression, confrontation and negative behaviour. I have no doubt that some of those people (specifically in the US) enjoy hunting for sport and food, and don't believe they are any significant danger to the public, not anymore so than anyone else really. 1 minute ago, andrewluke said: why would you need to hand over your DNA if you have not used any drugs?? A mouth swab is your DNA ... surely you know that? you suggested it after all ... And Ah, the old 'nothing to hide' argument... "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear..." - who was it that said that again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Just now, Lloyd90 said: Despite your bad experiences, and I truly am sorry to hear about it, and genuinely hope your relationship with your son is on the mend, there are a lot of people out there who are able to use cannabis specifically without displaying a lot of aggression, confrontation and negative behaviour. I have no doubt that some of those people (specifically in the US) enjoy hunting for sport and food, and don't believe they are any significant danger to the public, not anymore so than anyone else really. how are the police to know which ones will and which will not,if you were suffering depression you would need your doctors opinion to whether you of stable mind to hold a firearm! 4 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Despite your bad experiences, and I truly am sorry to hear about it, and genuinely hope your relationship with your son is on the mend, there are a lot of people out there who are able to use cannabis specifically without displaying a lot of aggression, confrontation and negative behaviour. I have no doubt that some of those people (specifically in the US) enjoy hunting for sport and food, and don't believe they are any significant danger to the public, not anymore so than anyone else really. A mouth swab is your DNA ... surely you know that? you suggested it after all ... And Ah, the old 'nothing to hide' argument... "If you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear..." - who was it that said that again? the swab test is instant,can be done in your own armchair and if negative then it can go into your own bin,so not so stupid afterall! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Just now, andrewluke said: how are the police to know which ones will and which will not,if you were suffering depression you would need your doctors opinion to whether you of stable mind to hold a firearm! perhaps the same way they judge anyone else who drinks alcohol etc for their fitness to have a licence? Whether they have any criminal convictions? any criminal record? frequent dealings with the police? call outs to their home? Regarding the depression - there are plenty of SGC/FAC holders who have gone through bad times/depression and feared to seek support as they were worried they'd lose their licences. What a shambles that is! Besides, as I said, at the current time in the UK anyone who is growing or using cannabis is breaking the law. Therefore are not law abiding and if caught would not be granted a licence or have their licence revoked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said: perhaps the same way they judge anyone else who drinks alcohol etc for their fitness to have a licence? Whether they have any criminal convictions? any criminal record? frequent dealings with the police? call outs to their home? Regarding the depression - there are plenty of SGC/FAC holders who have gone through bad times/depression and feared to seek support as they were worried they'd lose their licences. What a shambles that is! Besides, as I said, at the current time in the UK anyone who is growing or using cannabis is breaking the law. Therefore are not law abiding and if caught would not be granted a licence or have their licence revoked. but who's going to judge if a cannabis user is suitable to hold firearms?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, andrewluke said: how are the police to know which ones will and which will not,if you were suffering depression you would need your doctors opinion to whether you of stable mind to hold a firearm! the swab test is instant,can be done in your own armchair and if negative then it can go into your own bin,so not so stupid afterall! Your still handing over your DNA despite not having committed any crime ... surely you see that? 6 minutes ago, andrewluke said: but who's going to judge if a cannabis user is suitable to hold firearms?? perhaps the same person who judges everyone else? Although they wouldn't need to. As cannabis is currently illegal in the UK, therefore any known users wouldn't get a licence. I don't think that's what the debate was even about ... Edited January 9, 2018 by Lloyd90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Your still handing over your DNA despite not having committed any crime ... surely you see that? if the swab is clear then it wont leave your premises ... surely you see that? perhaps the same person who judges everyone else? is a cannabis user going to inform anyone that they are a user??, Edited January 9, 2018 by andrewluke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, andrewluke said: if the swab is clear then it wont leave your premises ... surely you see that? is a cannabis user going to inform anyone that they are a user??, I don't think your capable of understanding the point being made. The "if you have nothing to hide" debate is nothing new. The fact that they are carrying out the test on you in the first place is the issue, not whether you pass or fail the test (that you shouldn't even have to do to begin with). It's quite a 'famous' argument if you care to read about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument Edited January 9, 2018 by Lloyd90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 Here Andrew - Edward Snowden made a good comment on the argument "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." "Nobody needs to justify why they "need" a right: the burden of justification falls on the one seeking to infringe upon the right. But even if they did, you can't give away the rights of others because they're not useful to you. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 There’s a change in the law coming over the horizon driven by the decriminalisation of cannabis in Canada, the States, Spain, Holland (etc.) and a large chunk of supportive medical evidence. I am relatively ambivalent - I think alcohol is the far more damaging and abused substance (just look in on any A&E at the weekend) but alcohol currently has greater social acceptance and tolerance. However, if we all pause and put our copies of the Daily Mail away for one moment there is a strong economic case for the legalisation of cannabis - it would be *the* single biggest earner for the government (up there with the tax revenues currently enjoyed on cigarettes and alcohol) and I just don’t see a government struggling to fund the NHS likely to knock that opportunity back and at the same time they get to take a massive bite out of the black economy. One of my chums in the plod called it a few years ago - he said once they have the road side testing bit off pat (prescribed limits, detection etc) then it’s coming. I do love these threads though for the hysteria. Hysteria and anecdotal evidence; what better ways to stifle a debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADT06 Posted January 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, grrclark said: Why? Just out of curiosity. Because if you are growing drugs, you are showing a blatant willingness to break the law. I know everyone isn’t whiter than white, but personally my opinion is growing drugs in your attic and possibly even dealing them is a step too far over the line. I don’t know enough about the effects of cannabis on the brain to comment on how it affects ones ability to rationalise a situation and not do something stupid with a gun. I do respect there will be different views on this however, and I guess that’s what makes things like this story interesting as a society seeing how those views contrast and evolve over time. Everyone has a different “line” that can’t be crossed I suppose. I suppose there are 2 questions really: Is it ok to willingly break the law and own guns. Regardless of legality, does cannabis as a substance affect your capacity to be responsible when possessing or handling a firearm. Edited January 9, 2018 by ADT06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) Just to play devils advocate; you have a chronic back problem; you don’t want to become addicted to Tramadol, you don’t want to associate with criminal drug dealers and so you grow a couple of plants in your loft. Just like the home brewing threads on here if you will.... Edit: 1. The answer to the above two questions requires context. For example, if you drive at 36 mph in an area you know to be a 30 mph then you have willingly and knowingly broken the law. Is that game over? 2. Being stoned or drunk will effect cognitive behaviour - just as you must not drive ‘under the influence’ of anything, you shouldn’t shoot. Edited January 9, 2018 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 What a very interesting thread, with some truly unexpected responses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: What a very interesting thread, with some truly unexpected responses! Agreed! Seems clear cut to me; someone was raided and found to be consistently and knowingly breaking the law. He is a certificate holder. His certificate is revoked and his shotguns removed. Entirely normal, and exactly what I would expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Agreed! Seems clear cut to me; someone was raided and found to be consistently and knowingly breaking the law. He is a certificate holder. His certificate is revoked and his shotguns removed. Entirely normal, and exactly what I would expect. We don’t disagree. But there’s always ‘that’ wider debate. The spin from the pro-legalisation lobby is the middle to upper chap with a medical condition that he doesn’t want to take a prescribed opiate for. Or they lead with children with seizures. That ‘face’ of legalisation is nonsense because 99% of people will just want to get off their faces in the same way that your average whiskey drinker doesn’t look like David Beckham I love the debate! Edit: As I get older I find I watched every good film / TV show worth watching and so I find I casually watch more documentaries and stuff on the history channel. One or two that have stuck with me are the history of the Kennedy family and how the family money cane from running booze in prohibition, a documentary where they offered a range of healthy to intoxicating substances to chimps and without fail the Chimps went for getting mashed over everything else and any one of the drug cartel exposes - I didn’t realise that something like 50% of the Sinaloa cartel revenue comes from cannabis. When legalisation comes I will be remortgaging my house and sticking my pension into whichever big pharma takes the plunge into that market I digress.... Edited January 9, 2018 by Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 9, 2018 Report Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Mungler said: But there’s always ‘that’ wider debate. I don't know enough to get involved there (having zero experience of cannabis), so I'll resist the temptation and follow the legislators on this occasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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