The diplomats are out!!

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

It's in here https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/12/17109266/russia-spy-skripal-nerve-agent-salisbury-theresa-may-novichok

As to why he had no protection, I can't answer that.  Maybe he declined it, maybe it wasn't offered, maybe he did, and it wasn't up to the job?

The Vox article sites the source of Skripals threats to the Guardian, who site a 'police contact' its peculiar how nobody else ,including the government have mentioned any threats.
Until today no one mentioned the fate of Skripals pets he kept at home, 2 cats and 2 hamsters  all found with bullet wounds to the back of the head, suicide suspected.

 

Not really there all fine 

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I suspect that it is more an admission that the statement was rash, to 'definate' and possibly premature.  My understanding is that I believe " ... of a type of or similar to a type known to be produced in Russia" ...... or something along those lines.  I think current line is it is still very much thought that it WAS made in Russia, but they cannot PROVE it was.

They dont need to, they told the world within 48 hours it DEFINITELY was Russia !

[Retsdon]

It seems that the Russians are calling for a UN Security Council meeting to discuss this whole thing. Sorry, but  that's excellent news. No matter who is right or wrong, international relations can't be conducted through unsubstantiated threats, bluster and  insulting tweets a la Boris Johnson.  Surely that's enough now. Time to re-establish the rules of evidence and law and kick into touch  the law of the whipped-up hysterical lynch mob that for the last decade or so is apparently how we do our idiplomacy in the west.

This has zilch to do with who was or was not involved in the Salisbury affair. It's an apoeal to conduct international relations by the rulebook and in a civilized fashion  - because without diplomacy the only way to resolve differences is on the battlefield. And really, really we surely don't want to go there.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

It seems that the Russians are calling for a UN Security Council meeting to discuss this whole thing. Sorry, but  that's excellent news. No matter who is right or wrong, international relations can't be conducted through unsubstantiated threats, bluster and  insulting tweets a la Boris Johnson.

Not sure what that expects to achieve, but not against it.

 

3 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

This has zilch to do with who was or was not involved in the Salisbury affair.

I can't see how it isn't to do with the Salisbury affair.  Salisbury happened.  If Salisbury hadn't happened, none of this would have started.It was the 'kick off' for all of the expulsions of diplomats etc.   

You are 100% right that no one wants to go to 'battlefields'.  But no one wants (and I don't think we should tolerate) chemical warfare attacks on the UK mainland - even if they only target certain individuals who had dubious pasts.

[Retsdon]

It wouldn't matter if the British government were absolutely certain that the Russians were responsible - which they're evidently not- this media-driven megaphone diplomacy of bluster and threat is a disaster for normal international relations. It's impossible to  business this way. But really? That's the objective - to rip up and destroy normal diplomatic channels. NATO wants a war with Russia sooner rather than later, and we're laying the groundwork.  

Edited April 4, 2018 by Retsdon
Typos

[Grange1905]

You have to love this topic.. Firstly mother Theresa stands up in front of the world and starts pointing fingers at Russia, blaming them for this attack and stirring things up. No proof, no nothing. After a decision that the nerve agent was similar to that of the russians (no def. proof) it was decided that the russians had to be behind it. 

Now quite a few years ago a sect in Japan has synthesised and used the UK created VX nerve agent - surely it was the british behind that? If we follow the same logic..

 

[Hamster]

3 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

It wouldn't matter if the British government were absolutely certain that the Russians were responsible - which they're evidently not- this media-driven megaphone diplomacy of bluster and threat is a disaster for normal international relations. It's impossible to  business this way. But really? That's the objective - to rip up and destroy normal diplomatic channels. NATO wants a war with Russia sooner rather than later, and we're laying the groundwork.  

We don't want a war but yes we are being led into a confrontation by outside forces (keep laffin) ask yourself whose bitch is Nato ? 

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

NATO wants a war with Russia sooner rather than later, and we're laying the groundwork.  

NATO doesn't 'want a war' with anyone.  NATO would not win a conventional war, and there would be no winner in a nuclear war.

[Retsdon]

Personally I never, ever saw the upside for the Russians to top this bloke and his innocent daughter. Just before the World Cup? While they were winning in Syria? With an obscure, only to be found in a Kremlin chemical -weapons -stash, nerve agent that didn't work properly? 

If you offered it as a script to a movie producer he'd tell you to go away and come back with an at least credible storyline. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Retsdon
Missing relative pronoun

[TIGHTCHOKE]

You seem to have forgotten that Putin was up for election.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

Personally I never, ever saw the upside for the Russians to top this bloke and his innocent daughter. Just before the World Cup? While they were winning in Syria? With an obscure, only to be found in a Kremlin chemical weapons stash, nerve agent didn't work properly? 

If you offered it as a script to a movie producer he'd tell you to go away and come back with an at least credible storyline. 

It's hard to see the upside for the Russians in the Alexander Lipvinenko case as well, but that happened.  I think it must be being seen to eliminate any traitors.  Not really sure that World Cup, or Syria really have much bearing.  Chemical weapon failing?  Well, I assume is hasn't been tried in anger much ........ maybe the does was very small to avoid too much risk of others being hurt?  No idea.

Agreed it's not a good 'script', but who else has any credible means, motive and has made threats to carry out attacks on 'traitors'? 

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You seem to have forgotten that Putin was up for election.

He may have thought it would help.

[Retsdon]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You seem to have forgotten that Putin was up for election.

Putin could have been filmed dancing naked through a flock of sheep, he would still have won the election. Sorry, but risking a boycott of the World Cup and the loss of face that would ensue from actually being caught doing this thing simply doesn't balance at all with any potential benefit.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

Putin could have been filmed dancing naked through a flock of sheep, he would still have won the election.

That is true!

 

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

Sorry, but risking a boycott of the World Cup and the loss of face that would ensue from actually being caught doing this thing simply doesn't balance at all with any potential benefit.

Russia is already excluded from much international sport (doping/drugs = cheating), so they are already excluded from much sport.  Not sure having the world cup boycotted makes things much worse really.  Sport these days has become the 'politician's puppet' anyway.

[Retsdon]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It's hard to see the upside for the Russians in the Alexander Lipvinenko case as well, but that happened.  

From what I've read, the guy was actively involved in trading espionage secrets at the time he was poisoned. So it's plausible that the Russians topped him to shut him up. This bloke (and his daughter) had been out of the game for years and had been deemed harmless enough to  exchange in a routine spy swap. 

The two are not comparable.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Retsdon said:

From what I've read, the guy was actively involved in trading espionage secrets at the time he was poisoned. So it's plausible that the Russians topped him to shut him up. This bloke (and his daughter) had been out of the game for years and had been deemed harmless enough to  exchange in a routine spy swap. 

The two are not comparable.

OK, I have not researched the 'activity' background, though I suspect there is much to these 'shady spy worlds' we don't know about.

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Retsdon said:

Personally I never, ever saw the upside for the Russians to top this bloke and his innocent daughter. Just before the World Cup? While they were winning in Syria? With an obscure, only to be found in a Kremlin chemical -weapons -stash, nerve agent that didn't work properly? 

If you offered it as a script to a movie producer he'd tell you to go away and come back with an at least credible storyline. 

You're on the right track.  One of many reasons why Russia needs to be demonised and taught a lesson or so they think, trouble is all bullies eventually pick on the wrong guy.

[panoma1]

Why would anyone believe what the Russians say? The Russian state has been sponsoring doping and cheating by their athletes since before the days of Irena and Tamara Press in the 60's and lying about it since then, the Press 'sisters' immediately retired when gender/drug testing became compulsory! Coincidence? The former Communist East Germany also suspiciously punched well above its weight in their country's athletic success for years! Neither can/could be believed nor trusted!

 

Both countries (and several more former eastern block countries) have never admitted involvement in cheating or accepted responsibility, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, they never admit anything!

Russia has been caught and banned (and still is banned) from athletic competition due to state sponsored cheating and doping...........have they ever cooperated with the investigation or admitted guilt?

They appear to be using the same tactic with state sponsored murder? Russia undoubtedly have questions to answer.............but I wouldn't hold my breath for them to cooperate or for the world to get the truth!....if you wont play the game, you cannot lose!

[ordnance]

Quote

 

After a decision that the nerve agent was similar to that of the russians (no def. proof) it was decided that the russians had to be behind it. 

Now quite a few years ago a sect in Japan has synthesised and used the UK created VX nerve agent - surely it was the british behind that? If we follow the same logic..

 

I listened to chemical weapons experts that said that the nerve agent used is not something that you could knock up in your garden shied, it would talke government laboratories make it. Apparently its much more difficult to manufacture than VX or sarin. The fact that Russia is the only country known to manufacture Novichok  sort of points to them. 

 

 

Quote

 

They were developed in the Soviet Union

The name Novichok means "newcomer" in Russian, and applies to a group of advanced nerve agents developed by the Soviet Union in the 1970s and 1980s.

They were known as fourth-generation chemical weapons and were developed under a Soviet programme codenamed Foliant.

Novichok's existence was revealed by chemist Dr Vil Mirzayanov in the 1990s, via Russian media. He later defected to the US, where he published the chemical formula in his book, State Secrets.

In 1999, defence officials from the US travelled to Uzbekistan to help dismantle and decontaminate one of the former Soviet Union's largest chemical weapons testing facilities.

According to Dr Mirzayanov, the Soviets used the plant to produce and test small batches of Novichok. These nerve agents were designed to escape detection by international inspectors.

 

 

[poontang]

14 hours ago, Hamster said:

We don't want a war but yes we are being led into a confrontation by outside forces (keep laffin) ask yourself whose bitch is Nato ? 

Well you seem to know the answer... so who is it?   Who are these 'outside forces' you talk about?

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, ordnance said:

I listened to chemical weapons experts that said that the nerve agent used is not something that you could knock up in your garden shied, it would talke government laboratories make it. Apparently its much more difficult to manufacture than VX or sarin. The fact that Russia is the only country known to manufacture Novichok  sort of points to them. 

 

from Wiki-again.
In 2016, Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.^[12][13] Previously there had been no detailed descriptions of their spectral properties in open scientific literature.^[12][14]

This is interesting too http://russiancouncil.ru/en/analytics-and-comments/analytics/novichok-what-do-we-know/

I dont think anyone suggested that it was possible to make novichock or any other modern nerve agent for that matter in your shed or cave.
But I did read that it was made from fairly common fertiliser type ingredients ,and could theoretically be made in a clean factory style environment.
This from wikis 2006 page on novichock
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Novichok_agent&oldid=35826258
Note the 'simple version' of novichock.
Also note the hundreds and hundreds of revisions to the wiki novichok page since 2005, who would have thought a Russian nerve toxin no one has ever heard of would promote such interest 

2 more things.
The brains at Porton Down now say it would take a state actor to produce novichock, what is  a state actor ?
Does that mean any country that has a reasonable grasp of chemical technology could produce it ?
That doesnt sound like 'Only Russia can produce novichock' does it.

Last but not least, anyone who has been in the forces would have had some training in NBC attacks.
When it came to nerve agents, what were you told about exposure ?
Did they mentioned that after unprotected contact ,you could go for a drive, have a few beers and a meal before  the effects kick in ?
Or did they tell you you have seconds to administer counters ?

[Scully]

7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

from Wiki-again.
In 2016, Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.^[12][13] Previously there had been no detailed descriptions of their spectral properties in open scientific literature.^[12][14]

This is interesting too http://russiancouncil.ru/en/analytics-and-comments/analytics/novichok-what-do-we-know/

I dont think anyone suggested that it was possible to make novichock or any other modern nerve agent for that matter in your shed or cave.
But I did read that it was made from fairly common fertiliser type ingredients ,and could theoretically be made in a clean factory style environment.
This from wikis 2006 page on novichock
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Novichok_agent&oldid=35826258
Note the 'simple version' of novichock.
Also note the hundreds and hundreds of revisions to the wiki novichok page since 2005, who would have thought a Russian nerve toxin no one has ever heard of would promote such interest 

2 more things.
The brains at Porton Down now say it would take a state actor to produce novichock, what is  a state actor ?
Does that mean any country that has a reasonable grasp of chemical technology could produce it ?
That doesnt sound like 'Only Russia can produce novichock' does it.

Last but not least, anyone who has been in the forces would have had some training in NBC attacks.
When it came to nerve agents, what were you told about exposure ?
Did they mentioned that after unprotected contact ,you could go for a drive, have a few beers and a meal before  the effects kick in ?
Or did they tell you you have seconds to administer counters ?

I think it's a misprint. It should be 'stage actor' and the production was 'chekov' . 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

I think it's a misprint. It should be 'stage actor' and the production was 'chekov' . 

And the 2018 Novichok prize for drama ,goes to...(rustle, rustle) Boris Johnson !!! 

[Scully]

Just now, Rewulf said:

And the 2018 Novichok prize for drama ,goes to...(rustle, rustle) Boris Johnson !!! 

 I think there's a few on here that could be in line for it too! 

[ordnance]

Quote

Note the 'simple version' of novichock.

Do you think the chemical weapons experts, could not tell from samples what version was used. 

[Hamster]

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

Do you think the chemical weapons experts, could not tell from samples what version was used. 

I'm leaning towards a No. 

I'd like to think they could, but from what they've said previously, and lately, they only know it's a novichok 'type' toxin, if you've read up, Russia developed many different types, only a few of them were graded as 'military strength' 

Note the word developed, Porton Down has now said any state with sufficient tech could produce it, and the formula has been available for years. 

We were told only Russia could produce it, were we not? 

Hence it was DEFINITELY Russia that did Salisbury. 

The story is changing, and the news is quietening down, a few more days and the OPCW should come out with their findings, are THEY going to say it definitely came from Russia? 

I doubt that very much. 

I'll ask again, any people on here serve, and did NBC training? What were you told about nerve agents?