Side by Side Club

[Rob85]

9 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’ve got some 😂

although 1 is a 10 bore 

Ahh now you have reminded me....I was talking to my friends father at the funeral of his wife and he was telling me about a gun he had about 30years ago which was a double side by side 12bore with 36inch barrels, extra full choke in both barrels, i would assume that like your 10bore these would have been duck and geese shooting guns.

He said he used it for rabbits out to about 60 yards 😳

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

It very likely did!

I believe it weighs near 9 lbs.

I have a Beretta with 30" barrels - and in my younger days walked many many miles walking for grouse with it ...... but it is  now too heavy for me.   It is an ounce under 8 lbs.

[London Best]

To be fair, although my preferred barrel length for weight and balance is 27 inches, I never really notice how long the barrels are when shooting a gun because I don’t look at them. Obviously, I would notice if the length made the gun muzzle heavy. I don’t think I have ever used a gun longer than 31 inches.

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I believe it weighs near 9 lbs.

I have a Beretta with 30" barrels - and in my younger days walked many many miles walking for grouse with it ...... but it is  now too heavy for me.   It is an ounce under 8 lbs.

That is target rifle weight! 
Each to their own, but I hate heavy shotguns.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

I hate heavy shotguns.

I do now - and normally shoot an AyA No 1 (or for best, Henry Atkin spring opener) - but when I was 30 something ........ an o/u 30" was THE thing to have.  30 years later, I still have it, though I don't use it myself, but it does suit my (next generation down) relatives when visiting.

My preferred length is 28".  Shorter seems to have noticeable upward 'flip' for me.

Edited June 6, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

Ahh now you have reminded me....I was talking to my friends father at the funeral of his wife and he was telling me about a gun he had about 30years ago which was a double side by side 12bore with 36inch barrels, extra full choke in both barrels, i would assume that like your 10bore these would have been duck and geese shooting guns.

He said he used it for rabbits out to about 60 yards 😳

The 10 I use for wildfowling 

the 12 s are live pigeon guns from back in the day 28/30 /32 all are heavy choke I find them good for high pheasant and roosting pigeon shooting 

[London Best]

My first double, aged 15, was a cheap Spanish sidelock weighing nearer 7 lb than 6 3/4. When I swapped it for another Spanish sidelock I was amazed at how much better a 6 1/2 lb gun was to use and to carry. I was prop forward for the local rugby team at that time, so not exactly a weakling. I have not regularly used any heavier guns for over 50 years.

[Rob85]

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

The 10 I use for wildfowling 

the 12 s are live pigeon guns from back in the day 28/30 /32 all are heavy choke I find them good for high pheasant and roosting pigeon shooting 

I've always had a hankering for a "big gun" just to see what it's like to shoot an 8 or 10 bore. I've heard that the big guns don't tend to "kick" in the way a 12bore will, rather it's more of a shove in the shoulder. A double 8bore with black powder and BB shot must be like a flak cannon over the foreshore.

 

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

I've always had a hankering for a "big gun" just to see what it's like to shoot an 8 or 10 bore. I've heard that the big guns don't tend to "kick" in the way a 12bore will, rather it's more of a shove in the shoulder. A double 8bore with black powder and BB shot must be like a flak cannon over the foreshore.

 

Funnily enough, in 1981 I actually went to buy a P. Webley double eight bore hammer gun from the executor of a dead friend’s estate. I took £1000 with me but the gun turned out to be £1500. So........I had a rummage through the stuff and came home with a double hammerless Army and Navy fourten, weighing 4 lb 2 oz.

Edited June 6, 2021 by London Best

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

My first double ........

I am - at about 11 stone - a relatively lightweight; my first double (18th birthday from my godfather) was a Wm Powell 28" at about 6 lbs 2 oz - he was a very keen shot and used featherweight Purdeys (6 lbs dead on) himself.

I found it too lively (it still is - I still have it) even with under 28g loads.  The AyA (and the Atkin) are about 6 lbs 12 oz which is about right for me for both feeling light and lively - and handling 28g smoothly (21g on clays).

[Rob85]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

My first double, aged 15, was a cheap Spanish sidelock weighing nearer 7 lb than 6 3/4. When I swapped it for another Spanish sidelock I was amazed at how much better a 6 1/2 lb gun was to use and to carry. I was prop forward for the local rugby team at that time, so not exactly a weakling. I have not regularly used any heavier guns for over 50 years.

Hooker/prop forward myself and the first gun I used was a browning skeet gun owned by my neighbour, weighed about 8lbs and had 28inch barrels(albeit the wrong way up for this thread) but was beautifully balanced so felt light and had a lovely snappy swing, best o/u gun I've shot in my life.

I suppose it's the same as buying the same boots the internationals use but in shooting terms if a pro uses a set of drain pipes to shoot 16 yard crossers then the dedicated followers of fashion follow suit.

Going looking for a double 8bore and coming away with a fourten is quite the about turn!

[London Best]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

I am - at about 11 stone - a relatively lightweight; my first double (18th birthday from my godfather) was a Wm Powell 28" at about 6 lbs 2 oz - he was a very keen shot and used featherweight Purdeys (6 lbs dead on) himself.

I found it too lively (it still is - I still have it) even with under 28g loads.  The AyA (and the Atkin) are about 6 lbs 12 oz which is about right for me for both feeling light and lively - and handling 28g smoothly (21g on clays).

My current driven day gun is a Royal Brevis which weighs 6 lb 2 oz but does not feel too lively or whippy to me, nor does it kick me ( same loads as you). Seems to work even on Welsh pheasants.  Maybe your Powell does not fit you too well? I also use a 6 1/2 lb Spanish BLE and find that quite useable with up to 1 1/4 oz (36 gram )loads. I also have a 6 lb 12 oz Ugartechea sidelock that I use occasionally (wet driven days) but that always feels heavy.

[London Best]

10 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

 

Going looking for a double 8bore and coming away with a fourten is quite the about turn!

I am still totally besotted with it. You would not believe the game / ducks / pigeon / vermin I have shot with that little gun and 14 gram cartridges. I used it only this afternoon to persuade a rat to keep away from my bird table. I had to wait until the Sun went down because the Sun worshipping neighbour was slabbed out only 15 yards from ratty. Two minutes after she went in ratty got some number sevens.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, London Best said:

Maybe your Powell does not fit you too well?

It is difficult to know; when measured they are all virtually the same in all dimensions, but the C of G is I suspect part of the issue.  All are sidelocks and have 28" barrels but the Powell has lighter barrels, and is significantly lighter in the left hand.

I find that the C of G position makes a huge difference.  truth is that the AyA is used (for choice) for virtually all live game.  I use either 26 or 28g Hull Imperial - and it is a very satisfactory combination for me.  The Atkin is just as suited, but cannot accept 2 3/4" should the occasion arise.  If I was blindfolded - I doubt I could tell the Atkin from the AyA other that the self opening and the slightly slicker operation of the safety catch on the Atkin (the AyA has a trace of free movement that isn't there in the Atkin (which incidentally is well over 100 years old).

[London Best]

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It is difficult to know; when measured they are all virtually the same in all dimensions, but the C of G is I suspect part of the issue.  All are sidelocks and have 28" barrels but the Powell has lighter barrels, and is significantly lighter in the left hand.

I find that the C of G position makes a huge difference.  truth is that the AyA is used (for choice) for virtually all live game.  I use either 26 or 28g Hull Imperial - and it is a very satisfactory combination for me.  The Atkin is just as suited, but cannot accept 2 3/4" should the occasion arise.  If I was blindfolded - I doubt I could tell the Atkin from the AyA other that the self opening and the slightly slicker operation of the safety catch on the Atkin (the AyA has a trace of free movement that isn't there in the Atkin (which incidentally is well over 100 years old).

Hull Imp Game are a nice cartridge.  
I have the same chamber length issue with the Holland but I don’t actually want to use 2 3/4 inch cartridges in it. It is just annoying that so many cartridges are rated at 2 3/4 even if they only have 28g loads. 
Spring opening Atkins are really beautiful guns. 100 years old doesn’t matter. Mine is 91 yr old. Interesting what you say about the blindfold test. I would have expected the Atkin to be slimmer in the grip. 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, London Best said:

I would have expected the Atkin to be slimmer in the grip.

It is interesting you should say that.  The Powell (made 1919 I think from memory and a bit of a 'Triggers broom' having been both re-barrelled and restocked by Powells in the post war period) is very slim in the hand - noticeably so - and has a very 'splinter' forend. 

I have not measured any of the hands either in circumference or shape, but the AyA was fitted - and almost exactly matches the Atkin (which was made in 1911 as No 2 of a pair - I don't have No 1).  The fitting for the AyA (which was second hand and done by a true gunsmith specialising in fitting and restocking) established that the Atkin fitted nicely only differs from the Atkin in the length to heel, which is 1/16" longer on the Atkin, which has a leather covered pad.

Tomorrow I will measure around the hands of all 3!

[Old farrier]

46 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

I've always had a hankering for a "big gun" just to see what it's like to shoot an 8 or 10 bore. I've heard that the big guns don't tend to "kick" in the way a 12bore will, rather it's more of a shove in the shoulder. A double 8bore with black powder and BB shot must be like a flak cannon over the foreshore.

 

Depending upon the load😂😂

coincidently on Friday I was invited to a lads birthday party a clay shoot followed by a barbecue 

so for a bit of fun I asked if they would put on a long distance clay and took along the 10 and a pile of cartridges 4 shots apiece 

fun was had by all 😊👍

[JohnfromUK]

14 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Tomorrow I will measure around the hands of all 3!

Measurements around the hand (done by tailors type of tape measure around the thinnest part).  The balance was done using a small jewellers type anvil as picture;

Powell, 10.5 cm - balance 3/16" forward of joint pin centre line.

Atkin, 11.0 cm - balance 1/8" forward of joint pin centre line.

AyA, 11.0 cm - balance 1/16" forward of joint pin centre line.

and for comparison, a straight handed double trigger o/u measured about 12 cm around the hand and felt noticeably bulkier - but it is a quite different beast.

I cannot see any visible differences in the hand cross section 'shape' (diamond or oval) - all looking 'ovalish'.

I am surprised that the Powell is only slightly slimmer in the hand - as it feels quite a lot slimmer, but even more surprised about the balance.  The Powell feels comparatively 'left hand light', but in fact balances slightly further forward.  I can only think that it feels left hand light because it is significantly lighter overall, and I suspect some of the weight reduction will have been more bored from the stock.  It would be very easy to add a little weight there if required to move the balance.

 

[Gunman]

"Balancing" on tfe joint pit will all depend on the length of the bar . Old standard for the hand was 1&1/2" x 1&1/8 "-1&3/16".

There area number of other factors that will affect the "balance point inc. stock and barrel length as well type of action  . As long as the gun feels lively in you hands who cares .

[London Best]

Sorry for the late response, on holiday in Norfolk and been out all day.

All fascinating stuff. I think what counts with the balance is what percentage of the gun’s weight is ‘between the hands’ and how little weight is at each end.

I have never measured the hand of a stock, but I know that I prefer a slimmer ‘diamond’ section rather than a bulkier ‘oval’. I once went to the trouble of having John Wiseman alter my Wiseman gun to slim the grip to a ‘diamond’.

[Old farrier]

18 hours ago, Gunman said:

"Balancing" on tfe joint pit will all depend on the length of the bar . Old standard for the hand was 1&1/2" x 1&1/8 "-1&3/16".

There area number of other factors that will affect the "balance point inc. stock and barrel length as well type of action  . As long as the gun feels lively in you hands who cares .

Would you check the balance of the gun empty or with a dummy load(heavy snap caps)  in the chamber two or three oz can make a lot of difference 

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Would you check the balance of the gun empty or with a dummy load(heavy snap caps)  in the chamber two or three oz can make a lot of difference 

The ones I did above were done empty.  I would not expect a difference because if you look at the photo of my AyA above and imagine a cartridge 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 inch long in the chamber, the heaviest part of the cartridge (the load) would sit almost exactly above the joint pin - so almost exactly in the centre of gravity.

Out of pure interest, I intend to weigh (fairly accurate digital scales) the barrels of each later today - and possibly compare the CoG of the barrels in terms of 'inches forward of the breech face'.

Edited June 8, 2021 by JohnfromUK

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

The ones I did above were done empty.  I would not expect a difference because if you look at the photo of my AyA above and imagine a cartridge 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 inch long in the chamber, the heaviest part of the cartridge (the load) would sit almost exactly above the joint pin - so almost exactly in the centre of gravity.

Out of pure interest, I intend to weigh (fairly accurate digital scales) the barrels of each later today - and possibly compare the CoG of the barrels in terms of 'inches forward of the breech face'.

It’s all interesting stuff 👍😊

[JohnfromUK]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Out of pure interest, I intend to weigh (fairly accurate digital scales) the barrels of each later today - and possibly compare the CoG of the barrels in terms of 'inches forward of the breech face'.

Herewith:

Weight;

Powell

Barrels, 1258 grammes, Forend, 191 grammes, Stock/action 1433 grammes, total 2882 grammes = 6 lbs 6 oz (heavier than I thought from a previous rather cruder measurement)

Atkin

Barrels, 1303 grammes, Forend, 229 grammes, Stock/action 1555 grammes, total 3087 grammes = 6 lbs 13 oz

AyA No 1

Barrels, 1261 grammes, Forend, 231 grammes, Stock/action 1550 grammes, total 3042 grammes = 6 lbs 11 oz

Barrels C of G;

Powell   9 1/8" forward of the breech face

Atkin   9 1/4"

AyA No 1  9 3/8"

All 3 are 28" sidelock ejectors with double triggers and choked approx IC & 1/4, or 1/4 & 1/2 and all similar stock dimensions.

The Powell has later barrels (by Powells) dovetail lump and in current nitro proof at .729", but now measuring more like .734.  They are quite thin near the muzzle (low 20s thou). It has probably been restocked at some time.  The stock is all wood un-extended and the forend a very slim splinter.  Locks are normal 'bar action' by Chilton.  Ejector is a Southgate type.

The Atkin has original chopper lump barrels and in current nitro reproof at .729", (originally proved at 13/1) now measuring more like .731.  Walls minimum is about 30 thou.  The stock is has a leather covered rubber pad and the forend a fairly full splinter.  Locks/action is Beesley/Purdey self opening type.  Ejector is a Southgate type.

The AyA has normal AyA No 1 chopper lump (a different steel to No 2 AyA) and in current nitro proof measuring .731.  Walls minimum is about 30 thou.  The stock is all wood un-extended and the forend a fairly full splinter (AyA 'norm).  Locks are normal 'bar action' AyA.  Ejector is a Southgate type (again AyA norm).

[Old Boggy]

16 Bore G.Bate BLNE

After having viewed all those lovely sidelocks on the above posts, I thought that I would bring my humble little 16 bore BLNE made in 1936 to the party. It`s my favourite gun to use at present, although with non existent pigeons about, it is getting very little use at the moment, but hopefully will be put back into action once there are a few pigeons to shoot. It`s just come back from having the action tightened and a few pins (screws) tidied up and straightened. I thought that the action had lost its colour case hardening and had been blacked, but I`m reliably informed that it is the original finish. It`s a basic Birmingham gun but none the less for that, as it handles beautifully and I shoot as well as I`m ever likely to, with it. It will certainly see me out.

One photo shows where the top strap screw, sorry, pin, stands proud and almost touches the top lever. This has been rectified along with an out of line top lever screw, shown in the other photos.

Incidently, the barrels are not dented, just a trick of the light.

OB

Edited June 13, 2021 by Old Boggy

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

16 Bore G.Bate BLNE

After having viewed all those lovely sidelocks on the above posts, I thought that I would bring my humble little 16 bore BLNE made in 1936 to the party. It`s my favourite gun to use at present, although with non existent pigeons about, it is getting very little use at the moment, but hopefully will be put back into action once there are a few pigeons to shoot. It`s just come back from having the action tightened and a few pins (screws) tidied up and straightened. I thought that the action had lost its colour case hardening and had been blacked, but I`m reliably informed that it is the original finish. It`s a basic Birmingham gun but none the less for that, as it handled beautifully and I shoot as well as I`m ever likely to, with it. It will certainly see me out.

One photo shows where the top strap screw, sorry, pin, stands proud and almost touches the top lever. This has been rectified along with an out of line top lever screw, shown in the other photos.

Incidently, the barrels are not dented, just a trick of the light.

OB

Lovely looking little gun very understated caliber 😊👍

thanks for posting 👍