Lincolnshire Police

[Ttfjlc]

Evening all, just thought I'd share my recent experiences with lincs police. My certificates were due for renewal towards the end of october, after discovering I could apply online I believed it would be relatively straight forward however....please make sure you have a patient spouse/partner and make sure any young children are not around to hear the forthcoming bad language. It's fair to say the system they use is a 'work in progress' and in 'early stages', after spending what seemed like an eternity filling out the application I hit the 'submit' button only for my entire application to disappear and I was logged out of the system.

I genuinely believe now that we are not being spied on as if I was then my certificates would not of been renewed based on my reaction , luckily second time round was all good only to be told that it had to be printed off for signing . A few weeks went by, medical report requested, FLO visited (nice guy with common sense), voiced my opinion of the new system and said they really need to sort some form of digital signature to make it smoother, was told things haven't been easy with it but they're getting there which hopefully improves in time for others come renewal time. 

FLO said certificates should be done before current renewal date due to being a quieter period for them, medical report paid then a couple of weeks later 2 letters in the post extending my current certificates by 2 months as new ones weren't likely to be ready, 4 days after those letters arrived my new certificates were here. All in all a few system glitches to sort out but renewal time was less than 8 weeks so not as bad as I was expecting. 

[Big Mat]

Yes the online system certainly has some glitches! I can never log in, even using exactly the same details, and a supposedly withdrawn variation is still on there 3 months later! 

What I will say, is ignore the office and only listen to the FLO! ( I won't elaborate! )

[Ttfjlc]

17 minutes ago, Big Mat said:

Yes the online system certainly has some glitches! I can never log in, even using exactly the same details, and a supposedly withdrawn variation is still on there 3 months later! 

What I will say, is ignore the office and only listen to the FLO! ( I won't elaborate! )

You most likely have the same FLO as me pal, I believe he certainly makes things move a lot quicker at HQ. 

[sportsbob]

Medical report paid ?

Without being nosey do you have discloseable conditions or are shooters starting to accept this new unguided Police requirement.

[bostonmick]

7 hours ago, sportsbob said:

Medical report paid ?

Without being nosey do you have discloseable conditions or are shooters starting to accept this new unguided Police requirement.

Those who wish to carry on shooting are paying. The hero's who don't mind their guns going into storage for an unspecified time and taking up a new hobby don't pay. And don't even think about basc or any of the others they have washed their hands of its members in regard to this. 

[reidler]

Is the current advice still not to pay, or have basc given up on it? 

[panoma1]

3 hours ago, bostonmick said:

Those who wish to carry on shooting are paying. The hero's who don't mind their guns going into storage for an unspecified time and taking up a new hobby don't pay. And don't even think about basc or any of the others they have washed their hands of its members in regard to this. 

Not heroes.............just those who are aware of the current agreed procedure, which is, as per Home Office guidance......and of course...... those with principles!

As always, It's the ignorant and/or the unprincipled who undermine everyone who is prepared to stand up for what is right! Bit like the blackleg in an industrial dispute!

[Big Mat]

27 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Not heroes.............just those who are aware of the current agreed procedure, which is, as per Home Office guidance......and of course...... those with principles!

As always, It's the ignorant and/or the unprincipled who undermine everyone who is prepared to stand up for what is right! Bit like the blackleg in an industrial dispute!

 

Do you ever have anything positive to say? 

You will not get a FAC without paying the medical in lincs, it's as simple as that. There is nothing you can do about it, so those of us with any sense, pay up so we can continue doing what we enjoy. It's not about undermining anyone. 

[panoma1]

8 minutes ago, Big Mat said:

 

Do you ever have anything positive to say? 

You will not get a FAC without paying the medical in lincs, it's as simple as that. There is nothing you can do about it, so those of us with any sense, pay up so we can continue doing what we enjoy. It's not about undermining anyone. 

I thought my comment was very positive! In response to the negative, sarcastic comment posted about those prepared to make a stand for what is right!

[CharlieT]

49 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I thought my comment was very positive! In response to the negative, sarcastic comment posted about those prepared to make a stand for what is right!

All very laudable, however such a stance will not wash with Lincs.

Their policy is simple, No GP report = No certificate.

I quote...............We will not issue any certificates until your GP has responded to us and confirmed the medical declaration that you as the applicant have made. This process comes into immediate effect for any new grant applications and from 1 August 2018 for renewals.

[Ttfjlc]

13 hours ago, sportsbob said:

Medical report paid ?

Without being nosey do you have discloseable conditions or are shooters starting to accept this new unguided Police requirement.

No conditions to disclose, call it begrudgingly accepted if you will, no I wasn't happy about it but like Big Mat and CharlieT have said, no report no certificates, I even got an email reminder stating unless I sorted the report then my application would be withdrawn. 

2 hours ago, reidler said:

Is the current advice still not to pay, or have basc given up on it? 

I believe that both options seem to be correct, however if you don't pay I reckon you will not be shooting for a very long time.

2 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Not heroes.............just those who are aware of the current agreed procedure, which is, as per Home Office guidance......and of course...... those with principles!

As always, It's the ignorant and/or the unprincipled who undermine everyone who is prepared to stand up for what is right! Bit like the blackleg in an industrial dispute!

I'd love to stand up with my principles intact however I enjoy going shooting and I ain't no Martin Luther King. 

Edited October 17, 2018 by Ttfjlc

[panoma1]

10 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

All very laudable, however such a stance will not wash with Lincs.

Their policy is simple, No GP report = No certificate.

I quote...............We will not issue any certificates until your GP has responded to us and confirmed the medical declaration that you as the applicant have made. This process comes into immediate effect for any new grant applications and from 1 August 2018 for renewals.

I accept what your saying, as that's how I understand things in Lincs to be! What do BASC advise? Would it not be appropriate to write to the Police placing on record and explaining that you are making the payment on their instruction, under duress, and contrary to the UK governments published home office guidance, and should at some point in the future, this police instruction to obtain a GP's report, for which the applicant is required to pay whatever amount the GP decides, be found to be outside home office guidance/unlawful/unneccesary, you would look to the police to reimburse the full cost of such a report!......or words to that effect! At least you ain't just "rollin over"

 

[panoma1]

18 minutes ago, Ttfjlc said:

No conditions to disclose, call it begrudgingly accepted if you will, no I wasn't happy about it but like Big Mat and CharlieT have said, no report no certificates, I even got an email reminder stating unless I sorted the report then my application would be withdrawn. 

I believe that both options seem to be correct, however if you don't pay I reckon you will not be shooting for a very long time.

I'd love to stand up with my principles intact however I enjoy going shooting and I ain't no Martin Luther King. 

The police can't withdraw your application only you can do that! The police could refuse to process it, but then you could go to BASC and ask them to appeal to the courts against the police refusal (by refusing to process your application) to grant you a certificate..........for which your legal expenses would be covered in your membership package!

I know it's a difficult position to be in, but my point is, if we all just roll over and pay up, such payments will become a requirement via "custom and practice"....and that is not part of the agreed process!

[Ttfjlc]

4 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

The police can't withdraw your application only you can do that! The police could refuse to process it, but then you could go to BASC and ask them to appeal to the courts against the police refusal (by refusing to process your application) to grant you a certificate..........for which your legal expenses would be covered in your membership package!

I know it's a difficult position to be in, but my point is, if we all just roll over and pay up, such payments will become a requirement via "custom and practice"....and that is not part of the agreed process!

I understand your point completely, problem is lincs police have made clear their intentions and all we got told was refuse to pay. This is all well and good but then what? I would be interested to hear of anyone who has made a stand and not paid to see how it panned out for them. I can see it being rolled out more widely after talking to my FLO, he said it's already showed up a few people's dishonesty.

[panoma1]

As far as I recollect, the agreed guidance says, on application, the police will contact your GP asking them to put a marker on your medical records (that you are a certificate holder) and to enquire if you have any relevant medical afflictions, if the GP doesn't respond within 21 days, it will be assumed you have not! no payment will be required for this marker to be placed on your medical records, or for the GP's  response!

If you identify a relevant medical condition on your application, the police may contact the GP for a more thorough report....an applicant may have to pay for this?

The GP's have reneged on the agreement, and are demanding money for the initial police approach....if anyone should pay it is the police! It is they, that are demanding a written report (not required in the HO guidence!) on every applicant, in every case in Lincs............But they have decided to force this cost on to the applicant!

As for the FEO claiming "it's already shown up a few people's dishonesty" well the GP's response to the original (as per HO guidance)  police enquiry to the GP would have turned this up! And this " dishonesty" could be dealt with by the police, through the criminal courts as making a false declaration is a criminal offence!

The real reason for Lincs arbitrary action is, the GP's won't do what the police want without payment, the police want it but don't want to pay for it!.....so contrary to the UK governments agreed Home Office guidance, they've passed the financial burden onto the applicants!

This really needs testing through the courts, but I suspect BASC are trying to smooth it over, by agreeing some sort of payment to GP's.....as they ain't saying anything to their members about it.....just don't pay is hardly adequate advice!

 

[6.5x55SE]

10 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

As far as I recollect, the agreed guidance says, on application, the police will contact your GP asking them to put a marker on your medical records (that you are a certificate holder) and to enquire if you have any relevant medical afflictions, if the GP doesn't respond within 21 days, it will be assumed you have not! no payment will be required for this marker to be placed on your medical records, or for the GP's  response!

If you identify a relevant medical condition on your application, the police may contact the GP for a more thorough report....an applicant may have to pay for this?

The GP's have reneged on the agreement, and are demanding money for the initial police approach....if anyone should pay it is the police! It is they, that are demanding a written report (not required in the HO guidence!) on every applicant, in every case in Lincs............But they have decided to force this cost on to the applicant!

As for the FEO claiming "it's already shown up a few people's dishonesty" well the GP's response to the original (as per HO guidance)  police enquiry to the GP would have turned this up! And this " dishonesty" could be dealt with by the police, through the criminal courts as making a false declaration is a criminal offence!

The real reason for Lincs arbitrary action is, the GP's won't do what the police want without payment, the police want it but don't want to pay for it!.....so contrary to the UK governments agreed Home Office guidance, they've passed the financial burden onto the applicants!

This really needs testing through the courts, but I suspect BASC are trying to smooth it over, by agreeing some sort of payment to GP's.....as they ain't saying anything to their members about it.....just don't pay is hardly adequate advice!

 

Totally agree.

In my case Cambridgeshire. Had a letter from Firearms Department as my SGC was up for renewal they would automatically renew my FAC for the price of SGC . Printed off the form which personally i found a lot easier than in the past where photos and references was concerned posted on Friday following Thursday FEO phoned ( I'd also put in variation on my FAC ) 2-3 mine conversation Monday SGC and FAC arrived. Two weeks later letter from Doctors wanting me to PAY £48 Before they would allow my application to go through !!!!!! Very strange ( 1 ) i already had my certificates ( 2 ) was not aware Doctors now issued/ renewed SGC and FAC certificates.

Phoned BASC was advised forget the Doctors letter enjoy my shooting and IF the Doctors harrased me for the £48 phone BASC with Doctors details as they would sort it.

That was May 2018 as yet I've heard nothing or received no more letters.

[CharlieT]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

As far as I recollect, the agreed guidance says, on application, the police will contact your GP asking them to put a marker on your medical records (that you are a certificate holder) and to enquire if you have any relevant medical afflictions, if the GP doesn't respond within 21 days, it will be assumed you have not! no payment will be required for this marker to be placed on your medical records, or for the GP's  response!

If you identify a relevant medical condition on your application, the police may contact the GP for a more thorough report....an applicant may have to pay for this?

The GP's have reneged on the agreement, and are demanding money for the initial police approach....if anyone should pay it is the police! It is they, that are demanding a written report (not required in the HO guidence!) on every applicant, in every case in Lincs............But they have decided to force this cost on to the applicant!

As for the FEO claiming "it's already shown up a few people's dishonesty" well the GP's response to the original (as per HO guidance)  police enquiry to the GP would have turned this up! And this " dishonesty" could be dealt with by the police, through the criminal courts as making a false declaration is a criminal offence!

The real reason for Lincs arbitrary action is, the GP's won't do what the police want without payment, the police want it but don't want to pay for it!.....so contrary to the UK governments agreed Home Office guidance, they've passed the financial burden onto the applicants!

This really needs testing through the courts, but I suspect BASC are trying to smooth it over, by agreeing some sort of payment to GP's.....as they ain't saying anything to their members about it.....just don't pay is hardly adequate advice!

 

I am minded to believe that to take the stance Lincolnshire are taking requires legislative change and as such BASC should be challenging the Chief Constable in court.

To do anything less is just selling their members down the river. It really is a disgrace.

This is an extract from the latest published FELWG minutes 

Main Agenda 3 Medical arrangements -

DO - We are now at the stage where some forces operate on the proviso of no medical screening = no certificate. The enduring marker is still in progress and is being negotiated with home office. The imminent statutory guidance should include more latitude for police to refuse the certificate in the absence of medical screening at the first stages of application.

DO - Argued to home office that forces should be able to ask for medical details at first stage of application, as opposed to forces asking for medical information – final decision lies with minister The enduring marker has not been finalised, it will be included in the guidance which will be distributed the doctors. It has been agreed there will be no cost to policing and home office have proposed that they will include a suggestive cost within the guidance i.e £50, home office are to add this into the guidance, but it is accepted that this fee is only indicative.

JJ - Merseyside Police have started the process the same as Police Scotland, with the proviso that no medical details then no certificate.

Edited October 17, 2018 by CharlieT

[panoma1]

11 hours ago, CharlieT said:

I am minded to believe that to take the stance Lincolnshire are taking requires legislative change and as such BASC should be challenging the Chief Constable in court.

To do anything less is just selling their members down the river. It really is a disgrace.

This is an extract from the latest published FELWG minutes 

Main Agenda 3 Medical arrangements -

DO - We are now at the stage where some forces operate on the proviso of no medical screening = no certificate. The enduring marker is still in progress and is being negotiated with home office. The imminent statutory guidance should include more latitude for police to refuse the certificate in the absence of medical screening at the first stages of application.

DO - Argued to home office that forces should be able to ask for medical details at first stage of application, as opposed to forces asking for medical information – final decision lies with minister The enduring marker has not been finalised, it will be included in the guidance which will be distributed the doctors. It has been agreed there will be no cost to policing and home office have proposed that they will include a suggestive cost within the guidance i.e £50, home office are to add this into the guidance, but it is accepted that this fee is only indicative.

JJ - Merseyside Police have started the process the same as Police Scotland, with the proviso that no medical details then no certificate.

I thought it was the police's job to uphold and enforce the law.........not make law?

 

12 hours ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Totally agree.

In my case Cambridgeshire. Had a letter from Firearms Department as my SGC was up for renewal they would automatically renew my FAC for the price of SGC . Printed off the form which personally i found a lot easier than in the past where photos and references was concerned posted on Friday following Thursday FEO phoned ( I'd also put in variation on my FAC ) 2-3 mine conversation Monday SGC and FAC arrived. Two weeks later letter from Doctors wanting me to PAY £48 Before they would allow my application to go through !!!!!! Very strange ( 1 ) i already had my certificates ( 2 ) was not aware Doctors now issued/ renewed SGC and FAC certificates.

Phoned BASC was advised forget the Doctors letter enjoy my shooting and IF the Doctors harrased me for the £48 phone BASC with Doctors details as they would sort it.

That was May 2018 as yet I've heard nothing or received no more letters.

Ironic that the GP can write a speculative letter to you demanding money, which earns them nowt, if you don't pay up....but will not write a letter/send an email to someone else (police) on your behalf, unless you pay them £48.....not to mention the illegal act of demanding money with threats and/or menaces!

[bostonmick]

17 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I thought my comment was very positive! In response to the negative, sarcastic comment posted about those prepared to make a stand for what is right!

It was not sarcastic at all. However it does get a little tiresome being told by our so called organisations don't pay but no offer of any real help. And of course those who are in a area where this is not yet happening also saying don't pay it will not affect them in any way. I for one am not prepared to make a stand by giving up my shooting for an unspecified time and possibly paying storage fees. I am also of a mind to stop membership of basc and cpsa as they have abandoned the very people they are supposed to stand up for. They are the ones doing the rolling. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by bostonmick

[Scully]

1 hour ago, bostonmick said:

It was not sarcastic at all. However it does get a little tiresome being told by our so called organisations don't pay but no offer of any real help. And of course those who are in a area where this is not yet happening also saying don't pay it will not affect them in any way. I for one am not prepared to make a stand by giving up my shooting for an unspecified time and possibly paying storage fees. I am also of a mind to stop membership of basc and cpsa as they have abandoned the very people they are supposed to stand up for. They are the ones doing the rolling. 

Correct. I’m not a great fan of BASC, but they are stalwarts of drfenidng shooting interests when compared to the CPSA. I left them donkies years ago. 

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, bostonmick said:

It was not sarcastic at all. However it does get a little tiresome being told by our so called organisations don't pay but no offer of any real help. And of course those who are in a area where this is not yet happening also saying don't pay it will not affect them in any way. I for one am not prepared to make a stand by giving up my shooting for an unspecified time and possibly paying storage fees. I am also of a mind to stop membership of basc and cpsa as they have abandoned the very people they are supposed to stand up for. They are the ones doing the rolling. 

I believe calling those that speak up for and advocate sticking to the agreed HO guidance "heroes" was not meant by yourself as a compliment!.......Therefore i feel justified in calling it sarcasm!

That said, I accept and don't disagree with anything else in the post quoted above!

[bostonmick]

34 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I believe calling those that speak up for and advocate sticking to the agreed HO guidance "heroes" was not meant by yourself as a compliment!.......Therefore i feel justified in calling it sarcasm!

That said, I accept and don't disagree with anything else in the post quoted above!

I look forward to when your force adopt this stance and reading your posts on how you tackle it. Also what you fill the time with that once was shooting time. 

[panoma1]

Just now, bostonmick said:

I look forward to when your force adopt this stance and reading your posts on how you tackle it. Also what you fill the time with that once was shooting time. 

I have pointed out, in previous posts, my initial thinking on the matter of what I would do in the current circumstances, although our representative bodies will have probably waived the white flag of surrender and committed us all to pay, long before my certificate comes up for renewal?............In my opinion, being forced under protest, to do something you don't agree with because it is not in line with current agreed guidance, is preferable to doing something you don't agree with.........without protest!...but each to their own!

 

[Rewulf]

Theres little doubt this is coming nation wide.
Nottingham bought it in beginning of September, I got a nice letter from BASC last week telling me about it, and how they are going to protest it.

Theres also little doubt the next edition of the HO guidlines will enshrine it too.
Then what? the whole argument of it 'not being in the guidelines ' will be moot.

My personal take on it, pay it, if its £50 for 5 years worth of shooting, its not exactly   a massive cost is it ?
If BASC or CA come through and get it chucked out , demand it back.

[Ttfjlc]

2 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I have pointed out, in previous posts, my initial thinking on the matter of what I would do in the current circumstances, although our representative bodies will have probably waived the white flag of surrender and committed us all to pay, long before my certificate comes up for renewal?............In my opinion, being forced under protest, to do something you don't agree with because it is not in line with current agreed guidance, is preferable to doing something you don't agree with.........without protest!...but each to their own!

 

In other words I take it you're saying you'll pay? If so what will your protest be?

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Theres little doubt this is coming nation wide.
Nottingham bought it in beginning of September, I got a nice letter from BASC last week telling me about it, and how they are going to protest it.

Theres also little doubt the next edition of the HO guidlines will enshrine it too.
Then what? the whole argument of it 'not being in the guidelines ' will be moot.

My personal take on it, pay it, if its £50 for 5 years worth of shooting, its not exactly   a massive cost is it ?
If BASC or CA come through and get it chucked out , demand it back.

Interesting to hear Notts are on the same bandwagon, I like how BASC say they will protest it, did they elaborate how they intend to do this? If it's the same way as Lincs then most people will be removing dust from their guns before they get chance to use them again, I don't mean to have a dig at BASC, I just believe they mean well at times but simply don't carry enough clout. 

Edited October 18, 2018 by Ttfjlc