Shooting the first target twice or move to the second?

[Shadowchaser]

One scenario that comes up time and again when shooting sporting clays is this: You have say a pair (whether on report or not), let's say a left to right crosser and then a right to left crosser. You miss the first target so move onto the second and miss that. Is it better to try and shoot the first target again or not?

I often find myself thinking I'll do this if the target is airborne long enough but always revert to moving onto the second target. Many times I've come away from a stand thinking I should've just stuck with target 1 and thus (possibly) gaining a higher score.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Whichever option you choose you will only be scored for what you hit. In Fitasc you can happily double the first target of a pair. 

Just a word of advice, mention to the Referee that you intend to double the first target should you not kill it, I would already be watching the second target after your first shot and might just not see you kill the first target with the second shot!

[Diver One]

Where we shoot I don't think anyone would bother.  If I manage to break both clays with a single shot then I will try to break one of the big pieces with the second barrel. I quite often manage this and it looks quite impressive. However if the onlookers saw the previous shots or the later ones they would not be so impressed at all.  Did it twice today and came out with 23/50 and 21/50....absolutely dire!

and yet Friday I got my PB of 66/100 AND missed some absolute sitters so I was well pleased. It's a funny old pastime 

[Hamster]

50 minutes ago, Shadowchaser said:

One scenario that comes up time and again when shooting sporting clays is this: You have say a pair (whether on report or not), let's say a left to right crosser and then a right to left crosser. You miss the first target so move onto the second and miss that. Is it better to try and shoot the first target again or not?

I often find myself thinking I'll do this if the target is airborne long enough but always revert to moving onto the second target. Many times I've come away from a stand thinking I should've just stuck with target 1 and thus (possibly) gaining a higher score.

In ESP whether or not you get scored a hit should you manage to kill the target with your second shot very much hinges on the pair being thrown as a true simmo pair, there are many circumstances where experienced shooters will play the percentages by double barreling the easier bird. On a report pair you will be scored pair missed. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Hamster

[Walker570]

Being serious, I personally would go to the second as I would have already set myself to kill both and automatically  would be ready to move onto the second...not easy to explain, I know but personally I would probably kill the second bird and still miss the first as I would mentally be in the 'flow' so to speak.   It's almost the opposite of pre judging shooting a pair on a driven game shoot. I find in live situations I need to concentrate on killing the first before selecting a second OR inevitably I miss both.

[Shadowchaser]

41 minutes ago, Hamster said:

In ESP whether or not you get scored a hit should you manage to kill the target with your second shot very much hinges on the pair being thrown as a true simmo pair, there are many circumstances where experienced shooters will play the percentages by double barreling the easier bird. On a report pair you will be scored pair missed. 

So just to clarify - on a report pair if one was to shoot the first bird twice and hit it with the second shot it would be classed as a loss/loss rather than kill/loss. 

I take it on a simmo pair if you double barrell one target and hit it you get a kill/loss because it's not always clear to know which target the shooter is aiming for. 

29 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Being serious, I personally would go to the second as I would have already set myself to kill both and automatically  would be ready to move onto the second...not easy to explain, I know but personally I would probably kill the second bird and still miss the first as I would mentally be in the 'flow' so to speak.   It's almost the opposite of pre judging shooting a pair on a driven game shoot. I find in live situations I need to concentrate on killing the first before selecting a second OR inevitably I miss both.

This is the thing. Even after say pair one of a stand I think to myself, hmm that pair was difficult but I can shoot the first target twice increase my chances of at least hitting something. But I naturally go for the second target anyway, like I've been pre programmed to do this. 

[Hamster]

14 minutes ago, Shadowchaser said:

So just to clarify - on a report pair if one was to shoot the first bird twice and hit it with the second shot it would be classed as a loss/loss rather than kill/loss. 

I take it on a simmo pair if you double barrell one target and hit it you get a kill/loss because it's not always clear to know which target the shooter is aiming for. 

This is the thing. Even after say pair one of a stand I think to myself, hmm that pair was difficult but I can shoot the first target twice increase my chances of at least hitting something. But I naturally go for the second target anyway, like I've been pre programmed to do this. 

On a report pair you're allowed ONE shot per target thrown, should you miss the first target with your first shot the only way you can go on to score the remaining point is if you fire at (and kill) the on report bird. 

On a true simmo pair it is entirely up to you which target to fire at first and should you miss it is again up to you whether you give it the second barrel or go looking for the other target, in practice it is prudent to be mentally ready to double barrel the first one should you miss it, having said that there are certainly times when the harder target of the pair is the logical one to be tackled first but playing the percentages as mentioned previously means that it usually makes more sense to go after the easier target with your second shot rather than risk missing a hard target twice. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by Hamster

[grrclark]

12 hours ago, Hamster said:

On a report pair you're allowed ONE shot per target thrown, should you miss the first target with your first shot the only way you can go on to score the remaining point is if you fire at (and kill) the on report bird. 

Disagree with this Hamster.  The technical rules state that the shooter is entitled to fire two shots at the first target of a regular (on report) pair with the score being recorded on the first target only.

Extract from latest rule book:

SCORING RE PAIRS
24.18 In simultaneous pairs the competitor has the right to shoot either of the targets first. Should the Competitor hit both targets together with either the first or second shot; the result will be scored
pair scored.
24.19 In any regular pair the competitor having missed the first target may fire their second cartridge at the same target, the result being scored on the first target, the second target being counted as lost unless the shot breaks both targets.

[Hamster]

24 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Disagree with this Hamster.  The technical rules state that the shooter is entitled to fire two shots at the first target of a regular (on report) pair with the score being recorded on the first target only.

Extract from latest rule book:

SCORING RE PAIRS
24.18 In simultaneous pairs the competitor has the right to shoot either of the targets first. Should the Competitor hit both targets together with either the first or second shot; the result will be scored
pair scored.
24.19 In any regular pair the competitor having missed the first target may fire their second cartridge at the same target, the result being scored on the first target, the second target being counted as lost unless the shot breaks both targets.

I stand amazed and corrected, genuinely did not think that was the case. It would mean a shooter can effectively refuse a properly difficult report bird, can't see how that's fair. 

[Smokersmith]

If it's the same for everyone ... surely it's fair?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

29 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

If it's the same for everyone ... surely it's fair?

It is, the average shooter who elects to not shoot the hard target cannot beat the experienced shooter who takes on each and every target and breaks more!

[Hamster]

Well yes if you take an average shooter against a much better shot who kills most of both birds then it's "fair" but that kinda applies to every single target across the whole shoot, the better shooter will more often than not beat the less good ! 

What I meant is some shooters can bank on one point whereas others who in the spirit of competition may tackle the harder bird as well could suffer.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Hamster

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Hamster said:

Well yes if you take an average shooter against a much better shot who kills most of both birds then it's "fair" but that kinda applies to every single target across the whole shoot, the better shooter will more often than not beat the less good ! 

What I meant is some shooters can bank on one point whereas others who in the spirit of competition may tackle the harder bird as well.

It matters not, the less experienced shooter can bank on the easier bird and the more experienced shooter will take on every target, either is FAIR!

[Hamster]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

It matters not, the less experienced shooter can bank on the easier bird and the more experienced shooter will take on every target, either is FAIR!

And if they're both equally "experienced" ? 

What I'm saying is that if a bird has been thrown then surely the whole point of competition is to be tested equally across all birds.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, Hamster said:

And if they're both equally "experienced" ? 

What I'm saying is that if a bird has been thrown then surely the whole point of competition is to be tested equally across all birds.

Yes I agree, but will allow for the inexperienced shot to bank on the "easier" target and as long as he doesn't slow the momentum of the squad then he can do what he pleases.

[grrclark]

Sometimes when setting a course, especially fitasc, i will sequence the pair to give some shooters a chance to build a course by throwing the easier target first so they can have a second pop at it.

Other times it’s the harder target to make sure that everyone has to have a crack at it.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Sometimes when setting a course, especially fitasc, i will sequence the pair to give some shooters a chance to build a course by throwing the easier target first so they can have a second pop at it.

Other times it’s the harder target to make sure that everyone has to have a crack at it.

Another good point.

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Hamster said:

And if they're both equally "experienced" ? 

What I'm saying is that if a bird has been thrown then surely the whole point of competition is to be tested equally across all birds.

 

Tactical play is in every sport, sometimes playing smart beats playing the standard. 

 

If your just shooting for fun it doesn’t matter. 

If using the second shot to hit the first clay moves you up the board vs other shooters then it may be the smart move to make rather than try the second (harder) clay. 

 

Much like in Rugby we’d sometimes prefer teams to run the ball and actually see a bit of play, but they play tactically and kick the ball out to end the game. 

In American football they may take a knee. 

 

Its nothing new to sport. 

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Tactical play is in every sport, sometimes playing smart beats playing the standard. 

 

If your just shooting for fun it doesn’t matter. 

If using the second shot to hit the first clay moves you up the board vs other shooters then it may be the smart move to make rather than try the second (harder) clay. 

 

Much like in Rugby we’d sometimes prefer teams to run the ball and actually see a bit of play, but they play tactically and kick the ball out to end the game. 

In American football they may take a knee. 

 

Its nothing new to sport. 

Yes I agree there is merit in what some of you are arguing, I would admit there are many occasions with simmo pairs where playing the percentages is all part of the tactical game. Now consider these two scenario's :

1) Three AAA's are shooting off the deciding or final stand for a very important national title and are tied up to that point - the stand comprises of a quartering 30 yarder which though not a gimme is still within the capabilities of even A class shots followed by a mental Teal that though "hittable" has been set up nearasdammit to be missed.

Miss and out rules apply so each fire in turn and all break their first pair, the second pair they each hit the "easy" bird and miss the Teal, on the third pair they all do the exact same, on the final pair the first two shooters miss both birds (it is a tense title shoot off after all), the last shooter steps onto the stand knowing he/she only has to break the "easy" bird to win and doesn't even have to fire at the Teal ! Ah but the others could have done the same and fired at the easy bird twice I hear you say and the answer is correct, yes they could and indeed they may have but the crucial difference here is that the last shooter is now in an entirely different frame of mind since he knows he can solely concentrate on the easy bird. 

2) The same shooters are presented with a pretty hard first target which they would normally hit 4-5 x 10 followed  by another mental target that few if any could hit more than 2-3x10 - ALL three play the tactical game by double barrelling the first target every time they miss (which is more than 50% of the time), what kind of spectacle would that be for the watching crowd ? 

I must say despite shooting a fair bit of registered comps I can't remember the last time I watched anyone double barrel their first target (of a report pair), knowing now that it's permissible I shall make a point of informing the ref that I intend to do so in case they don't know. 

[Lloyd90]

25 minutes ago, Hamster said:

Yes I agree there is merit in what some of you are arguing, I would admit there are many occasions with simmo pairs where playing the percentages is all part of the tactical game. Now consider these two scenario's :

1) Three AAA's are shooting off the deciding or final stand for a very important national title and are tied up to that point - the stand comprises of a quartering 30 yarder which though not a gimme is still within the capabilities of even A class shots followed by a mental Teal that though "hittable" has been set up nearasdammit to be missed.

Miss and out rules apply so each fire in turn and all break their first pair, the second pair they each hit the "easy" bird and miss the Teal, on the third pair they all do the exact same, on the final pair the first two shooters miss both birds (it is a tense title shoot off after all), the last shooter steps onto the stand knowing he/she only has to break the "easy" bird to win and doesn't even have to fire at the Teal ! Ah but the others could have done the same and fired at the easy bird twice I hear you say and the answer is correct, yes they could and indeed they may have but the crucial difference here is that the last shooter is now in an entirely different frame of mind since he knows he can solely concentrate on the easy bird. 

2) The same shooters are presented with a pretty hard first target which they would normally hit 4-5 x 10 followed  by another mental target that few if any could hit more than 2-3x10 - ALL three play the tactical game by double barrelling the first target every time they miss (which is more than 50% of the time), what kind of spectacle would that be for the watching crowd ? 

I must say despite shooting a fair bit of registered comps I can't remember the last time I watched anyone double barrel their first target (of a report pair), knowing now that it's permissible I shall make a point of informing the ref that I intend to do so in case they don't know. 

 

I shot a new to me ground on Sunday and scored 36/60 , top score was 44, with about 2-3 others in the forties. 

Looking back I would have been better off double barrelling some of the ones that I did poorly on, however at the time I fully believed I would smoke both targets so the fact I’d miss both hadn’t even crossed my mind 🤷‍♂️😂. 

 

If I had double barrelled some of them maybe if of ‘placed’ a bit higher, but then again it didn’t make any difference as it’s just a fun club shoot 👍🏻. 

 

How are you performing in the comps at the minute?  

[Hamster]

31 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I shot a new to me ground on Sunday and scored 36/60 , top score was 44, with about 2-3 others in the forties. 

Looking back I would have been better off double barrelling some of the ones that I did poorly on, however at the time I fully believed I would smoke both targets so the fact I’d miss both hadn’t even crossed my mind 🤷‍♂️😂. 

 

If I had double barrelled some of them maybe if of ‘placed’ a bit higher, but then again it didn’t make any difference as it’s just a fun club shoot 👍🏻. 

 

How are you performing in the comps at the minute?  

This is what's troubling me a little now because I can see a situation whereby a person capitalising fully on the rules will start to routinely second barrel the shots where an advantage could be gained, this can mean even first targets that aren't necessarily describable as the "easier" of the two can still be the logical one to go for because by then you're already fully committed with the gun in the shoulder (remember you may well have placed your feet to favour the first bird and it's advantageous not to have to move) plus you may well have an instinctive idea where/why the first miss occurred. I can't blame people who may start getting cheesed off with such display of tactical nous, at the end of the day "placing" in this manner isn't quite cricket because you haven't really shot at all the targets presented. 

Personal performances tend to vary of course but I'm generally very happy at the moment, I was fortunate enough to spend a few years at AAA, albeit got there with the skin of my teeth 😁  having really worked hard on trying to up my game on the "easy" and medium ones I think I have just managed to climb back in with some decent scores, assuming the 87odd% cut offs aren't significantly different on the next issue (which they almost never are) my current running average is 89.38% .

[Lloyd90]

54 minutes ago, Hamster said:

This is what's troubling me a little now because I can see a situation whereby a person capitalising fully on the rules will start to routinely second barrel the shots where an advantage could be gained, this can mean even first targets that aren't necessarily describable as the "easier" of the two can still be the logical one to go for because by then you're already fully committed with the gun in the shoulder (remember you may well have placed your feet to favour the first bird and it's advantageous not to have to move) plus you may well have an instinctive idea where/why the first miss occurred. I can't blame people who may start getting cheesed off with such display of tactical nous, at the end of the day "placing" in this manner isn't quite cricket because you haven't really shot at all the targets presented. 

Personal performances tend to vary of course but I'm generally very happy at the moment, I was fortunate enough to spend a few years at AAA, albeit got there with the skin of my teeth 😁  having really worked hard on trying to up my game on the "easy" and medium ones I think I have just managed to climb back in with some decent scores, assuming the 87odd% cut offs aren't significantly different on the next issue (which they almost never are) my current running average is 89.38% .

If your hitting 90% of what you shoot at don’t worry about it  

[ehb102]

Double barrelling the first target is what beginners do. You'd have to go all the way up to the top of the field to find anyone calculating enough for it to have an impact on prizes or scores and that would apply in very few situations. It's allowed so it's fair play. 

[Shadowchaser]

Some great responses to my question and interesting reading. 

[figgy]

I've been to shoots where we have all looked at the targets and said that second clay looks very hard. If I miss I'll double on the first. A possible one is better than none. Nice if you do hit the pair.