Brexit - merged threads

[Raja Clavata]

There are all sorts of financial engineering that go on but investment in a real sense improves infrastructure, improves quality of life, creates jobs and or increases GDP.

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don't prescribe to that necessarily, there is always money to be made but that's not the point here. This does not represent investment no matter what way anyone tries to spin it.

Global vice chair at EY Steve Krouskos said that Britain remains an “open environment for foreign investors”, reinforced by the English language, a skilled workforce, and a strong technology base

He obviously does subscribe to it ?

But Ill come back to what I said, what you describe as fake news, is companies putting £billions of hard cash into buying or taking over Brit business's .
In this sort of global climate, you dont do that sort of thing, and more importantly, justify it to your shareholders, if you dont think that it is a sound INVESTMENT.

Ill be very honest, my understanding of high level business is schoolboy grade, but surely you dont pour money into a vessel with a hole in the bottom, or  with obvious cracks ?

I would imagine the more astute can see that UK business is far from the wreck we were promised , as a result of Brexit.

[oowee]

48 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Global vice chair at EY Steve Krouskos said that Britain remains an “open environment for foreign investors”, reinforced by the English language, a skilled workforce, and a strong technology base

He obviously does subscribe to it ?

But Ill come back to what I said, what you describe as fake news, is companies putting £billions of hard cash into buying or taking over Brit business's .
In this sort of global climate, you dont do that sort of thing, and more importantly, justify it to your shareholders, if you dont think that it is a sound INVESTMENT.

Ill be very honest, my understanding of high level business is schoolboy grade, but surely you dont pour money into a vessel with a hole in the bottom, or  with obvious cracks ?

I would imagine the more astute can see that UK business is far from the wreck we were promised , as a result of Brexit.

They are buying the order book whilst it's cheap. If Brexit turns out half as bad as predicted they can repatriate the work to Europe. Labour laws are lax so layoffs are easy. An open door for business is just that but it's not a one way door. 

[Raja Clavata]

I'm not contesting what Steve Krouskos has said and I'm sure he is right.

What I am contesting is that neither of the examples cited represent real investment, at least not the type I cited above. If you look into the background of both:

• Comcast are acquiring Sky to diversify content and regional presence with a bigger plan likely to involve the launch of a global competitor to Netflix. It looks like Sky was their consolation as their first prize was 21st Century Fox which they lost out on to Disney.
• Coca Cola are continuing their investment in coffee brands as part of a move away from carbonated sugary drinks (just like American Tobacco are diversifying) and this is part of a global aspiration to own coffee outlets.

So, neither of these is actually investing in the UK. They are acquiring businesses to address their decline in market share and apply a successful UK / EU business model globally.

Whilst the £ is low the sales are obviously favourable but according to the market Comcast paid up to 50% over the odds for Sky.

Whilst on the subject of Steve Krouskos quotes, he also said "he hasn't encountered executives who want Britain to crash out of the EU without a deal and that the remainder are "split down the middle" between those who want the country to leave the bloc smoothly with a deal and those who want Brexit stopped".

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

They are buying the order book whilst it's cheap. If Brexit turns out half as bad as predicted they can repatriate the work to Europe. Labour laws are lax so layoffs are easy. An open door for business is just that but it's not a one way door. 

Is it cheap ?

Its either a good investment or its not?

To say that they/you believe Brexit will be bad, yet they still buy, 'because they can move it over to the EU ' makes NO sense, why not buy it when (after Brexit) its REALLY cheap ?

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm not contesting what Steve Krouskos has said and I'm sure he is right.

So its not fake news ?

 

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So, neither of these is actually investing in the UK. They are acquiring businesses to address their decline in market share and apply a successful UK / EU business model globally.

Whilst the £ is low the sales are obviously favourable but according to the market Comcast paid up to 50% over the odds for Sky.

So one of you is saying they bought because its cheap and the UK is going down the pan anyway, and one of you is saying they bought to bolster their business with sound investment and increased market share, but its not really investment, and its fake news, but you agree with the writer of the article ?

Im nearly as confused as you are 

[Raja Clavata]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So its not fake news ?

So one of you is saying they bought because its cheap and the UK is going down the pan anyway, and one of you is saying they bought to bolster their business with sound investment and increased market share, but its not really investment, and its fake news, but you agree with the writer of the article ?

Im nearly as confused as you are 

Fake news in the context of being used to promote Brexit, yes! Not the article which from EY which has been selectively quoted and spun to serve a Brextist agenda.

I didn't say anything about sound investment and, as I've maintained all along, this is not real investment in the UK (at least not in a wider net benefit to the UK context).

We are not in collusion, no need to justify differences of opinion as far as I'm concerned - small beer compared to the *** moments we get from Brexiteers 😛

I see you conveniently skipped over this:  "he hasn't encountered executives who want Britain to crash out of the EU without a deal and that the remainder are "split down the middle" between those who want the country to leave the bloc smoothly with a deal and those who want Brexit stopped".

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Is it cheap ?

Its either a good investment or its not?

To say that they/you believe Brexit will be bad, yet they still buy, 'because they can move it over to the EU ' makes NO sense, why not buy it when (after Brexit) its REALLY cheap ?

 

Good for both businesses yes, willing buyer, willing seller. Good for the UK will depend on the arrangement and details will vary company to company but generally I would say its a short term bonus.  For goods it may be the case that they cannot wait to buy as some one else may buy them first.  Or the company will be under pressure to commit to forward pricing contracts. With Brexit they cannot do that without knowing trade arrangements. With a buyer they can commit to future orders as either they will be able to supply at a fixed cost or the new buyer will if they cannot.

We used to sell companies that had the skills and the orders but were struggling to make investment in new plant as they did not have the cash. This was often the case with foundry or machine tool makers and other traditional industries. The Americans had the cash but not the orders. In that case good news as the company stayed in business a while longer. 

I assisted the sale of one company that made finished gears, that was bought by a Japanese company 'Mazak' so they could access the companies finished gears as base stock for refinishing. That company is now here in the UK so very good news. Interesting to see where they go now.

Whilst we might count business sales as investment we don't count international acquisitions as exports. A. because they are too hard to quantify and B. they look like exported jobs.

[pinfireman]

The clouds looming over the global automotive industry have darkened this week with Volkswagen’s former CEO being charged with fraud over the Diesel emissions scandal. Already tumbling German business confidence will not be improved…

Now beleaguered car company Nissan will cut 600 jobs in two plants in Spain, on top of Ford’s announcement last month that it is slashing 5,000 jobs in Germany. If this was happening in Britain the media, and Remoaners,  would be falling over themselves to blame it on Brexit…

Source: Guido Fawkes

Despite almost three years of bitter arguments, a plethora of campaigns and even two new serious parties being set up, millions of pounds spent, and the People’s Vote campaign reincarnating itself more times than the Dalai Lama, YouGov have foundthat the vast majority of the public are as sure or more sure now that they voted the right way in the referendum. Just 6% would switch their votes if they had the chance…

The difference between Remainers and Leavers is very marginal, 86% of Remainers and 82% of Leavers were either “more sure” or “about as sure” that they’d voted the right way. Even if all 4% of Remainers and 7% of Leavers who said they would now switch their votes had voted the other way, it would still have resulted in a narrow Leave victory. Remainer spin hasn’t worked, people knew what they were voting for in 2016 – and still do now…

Source: Guido Fawkes

[Raja Clavata]

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/guido-fawkes/

[Gordon R]

They have an extensive list based on very little.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

They have an extensive list based on very little.

Just a bit  the bit where you can vote on it yourself shows some interesting opinions.

 

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/guido-fawkes/

To be honest, if you think that website, that lists some moderate right wing media, as extreme, and some extreme left wing media as moderate, is what I would call , somewhat biased 😄
To prove the point, click on the votes for the Mirror or Huff post.

But to try to rubbish an idea or statement because a vague website says its 'extreme' lacks any credibility.

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Fake news in the context of being used to promote Brexit, yes! Not the article which from EY which has been selectively quoted and spun to serve a Brextist agenda.

These 2 statements sum it up though dont they ?
Its fake news if its used to promote Brexit !

 

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

To be honest, if you think that website, that lists some moderate right wing media, as extreme, and some extreme left wing media as moderate, is what I would call , somewhat biased 😄
To prove the point, click on the votes for the Mirror or Huff post.

But to try to rubbish an idea or statement because a vague website says its 'extreme' lacks any credibility.

These 2 statements sum it up though dont they ?
Its fake news if its used to promote Brexit !

 

I shared a link and you filled in the gaps (just like you usually do).

There are some very good articles and viewpoints that are pro-Brexit just as there are anti-Brexit ones, as well as a load of tosh from both sides. 

I still maintain that foreign acquisitions of UK owned or UK based businesses does not represent real investment or a confidence vote in the UK.

You still haven't responded on this: "he hasn't encountered executives who want Britain to crash out of the EU without a deal and that the remainder are "split down the middle" between those who want the country to leave the bloc smoothly with a deal and those who want Brexit stopped".

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I shared a link and you filled in the gaps (just like you usually do).

You share a link to a website that has no factual basis, what did you want me to say ?

 

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You still haven't responded on this: "he hasn't encountered executives who want Britain to crash out of the EU without a deal and that the remainder are "split down the middle" between those who want the country to leave the bloc smoothly with a deal and those who want Brexit stopped".

Lets dismantle this, He hasnt encountered any No deal execs ? So they dont exist ?...

But the REMAINDER are split down the middle ?

You know full well there are high profile execs who want no deal, so I didnt consider it worth answering the point really, sorry about that 😄

[oowee]

I have just seen some more Brexit good news. Looks like an increase in enquiries for stay-cations. 

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, oowee said:

I have just seen some more Brexit good news. Looks like an increase in enquiries for stay-cations. 

I used to be of the mindset that a holiday in this country was quite often more expensive than going abroad.

Obviously depends where and what level of comfort you fancy, but Ive had many a week in Scotland, in a decent hotel, and by the time youre fed and watered, its cost £1500 for a couple.

Ive done Spain and Turkey for half that all inclusive.
We often went to the Hilton in Dalaman for around £550 - 600 each in May, before the main season starts, when the price doubles that, great hotel , 24 hr all inclusive excellent food blah blah.
Im going back there in a couple of weeks, first time in 5 years, and bearing in mind the lira is around 7 to the pound (it was 2.5 back in 2014) the same holiday has cost me £800 a piece.
So Im not surprised people are wanting to stay here !

[Rewulf]

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

😀

[Newbie to this]

50 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

brilliant.

[Raja Clavata]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Something I would hope we can all agree on.

[Raja Clavata]

17 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You share a link to a website that has no factual basis, what did you want me to say ?

I did so in response to the repeated copy pastes of this stuff from Guido Fawkes, I mean seriously "Voters have no Begrets" - sounds like something from the News of the World headline. There is an inevitable aspect of inane discussion here but those posts just take the biscuit. A further part of the problem here is that "factual" pretty much no longer has any useful meaning as we ALL manipulate it to meet our desired ends.

Lets dismantle this, He hasnt encountered any No deal execs ? So they dont exist ?...

But the REMAINDER are split down the middle ?

You know full well there are high profile execs who want no deal, so I didnt consider it worth answering the point really, sorry about that 😄

See above 😛

 

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I did so in response to the repeated copy pastes of this stuff from Guido Fawkes, I mean seriously "Voters have no Begrets" - sounds like something from the News of the World headline. There is an inevitable aspect of inane discussion here but those posts just take the biscuit. A further part of the problem here is that "factual" pretty much no longer has any useful meaning as we ALL manipulate it to meet our desired ends.

So let me get this straight.
You dont like what Guido posts, youre not bothered whether its based on factual evidence, or is the considered opinion of the owner of the blog, its just wrong ?

So to 'prove your point' you post a link to a website that gauges the bias of such blogs/media  and publications, a website that is quite possibly the considered opinion of the website owner ?

What have you proved?
That we can safely ignore what Guido says because hes 'extreme' right wing (in somebodies opinion ), and sounds like a news of the world headline ?

But then whats this ? We can ignore facts , because they may have been manipulated to someone 'elses' ends ?
Surely a fact is a fact, an undeniable truth ?

Your thought processes in some of these issues defy logic, which is strange because some of the time you come across as very intelligent.
I think you need to come to terms with where you actually are with Brexit, you have a job that you believe is highly reliant on being a member of the EU , and for this reason you are a staunch remainer, nothing wrong with that at all, your opinion, your vote.
But then you say youre trying to understand the mindset of leavers, how can you do this when you cant even recognise your own bias ?

I can see why people voted to remain, they are not idiots , drones, or lacking of patriotic fervour, they are people who for economic or social needs and opinions, consider it the best way.
Where is the hatred and sarcasm been directed towards remainers ?

Even now the remainer mantra is 'The less intelligent, the Sun readers, those who didnt get higher education and therefore, dont get the 'big' picture, caused Brexit'
This insulting , and totally incorrect stereotypical idea, will come back to bite you in the very near future.

Distorting the truth, and denying facts, whilst trying to rubbish anything you dont agree with, wont get you any closer to understanding anything, least of all yourself.

[Lord v]

23 hours ago, oowee said:

We used to sell companies that had the skills and the orders but were struggling to make investment in new plant as they did not have the cash. This was often the case with foundry or machine tool makers and other traditional industries. The Americans had the cash but not the orders. In that case good news as the company stayed in business a while longer. 

That has been the case for construction companies and consultancies for a long time and this hasn't slowed due to Brexit.

British consultancies tend to be seen as a 'good buy' because as a general rule we have the experience in operating in multiple countries with diverse order books while still being small enough to be cheap. Therefore pretty attractive for large American/Canadian companies wanting to take the 'global' step.

 

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

So let me get this straight.
You dont like what Guido posts, youre not bothered whether its based on factual evidence, or is the considered opinion of the owner of the blog, its just wrong ?

So to 'prove your point' you post a link to a website that gauges the bias of such blogs/media  and publications, a website that is quite possibly the considered opinion of the website owner ?

What have you proved?
That we can safely ignore what Guido says because hes 'extreme' right wing (in somebodies opinion ), and sounds like a news of the world headline ?

I think you are reading rather too much into this, I was pushing back on posts that get put up on this thread by a certain poster with no discussion or follow-up. In a way it's replying in kind to posts like the ones constantly citing Guido, a bit puerile perhaps but at times neccesary and hey, none of us are perfect. I find it interesting that you are OK with those posts but find my responses so objectionable (and then patronisingly accuse me of biases - which is in fact (dare I use that word) just turning around points on me that I made previously, not very original.

But then whats this ? We can ignore facts , because they may have been manipulated to someone 'elses' ends ?

There you go again, I didn't say that (or anything like it), and you accuse my thought processes of defying logic. 

Surely a fact is a fact, an undeniable truth ?

Undeniably, yes, but again I think you are missing the point.

Your thought processes in some of these issues defy logic, which is strange because some of the time you come across as very intelligent.

And I'm the patronising one, right.

I think you need to come to terms with where you actually are with Brexit, you have a job that you believe is highly reliant on being a member of the EU , and for this reason you are a staunch remainer, nothing wrong with that at all, your opinion, your vote.

This is getting a bit incredible now, I work in industries in the UK that are highly reliant on a controlled transition to Brexit. My personal well being is more or less unaffected by Brexit as I am relatively fit and healthy, reasonably affluent and have skills and qualifications that allow me to pretty much walk into any relevant role anywhere in the world.

May I politely suggest that you need to come to terms with where we are at with Brexit.
But then you say youre trying to understand the mindset of leavers, how can you do this when you cant even recognise your own bias ?

I raised this point previously and was ridiculed for it, no biggy but I'm not giving said sniper the satisfaction of going over it again.

I can see why people voted to remain, they are not idiots , drones, or lacking of patriotic fervour, they are people who for economic or social needs and opinions, consider it the best way.
Where is the hatred and sarcasm been directed towards remainers ?

Is that a serious question? So you're suggesting that Brexiteers are being persecuted, victimised or ??

Even now the remainer mantra is 'The less intelligent, the Sun readers, those who didnt get higher education and therefore, dont get the 'big' picture, caused Brexit'

I'm sorry but isn't that statement itself highly stereotypical?
This insulting , and totally incorrect stereotypical idea, will come back to bite you in the very near future.

How is it going to bite me exactly, interesting rhetoric but sorry I'm not buying it. 

Distorting the truth, and denying facts, whilst trying to rubbish anything you dont agree with, wont get you any closer to understanding anything, least of all yourself.

Not buying this either and I'm sorry but this encroaches far into the field of hypocrisy.

If you care to recall my objection was around citing foreign companies acquiring UK owned or UK HQ'd companies and claiming that real investment in the UK and any kind of vote of confidence in the UK (regardless of Brexit or not). It was my assertion that these claims were themselves an attempt to distort the truth.

Several times now I have offered something back and each time it's used against you or turned around, this hard-line uncompromising attitude is one of the key reasons we are in the situation we are with Brexit and it's becoming increasingly hard not to honestly say I won't laugh in the faces of such people once the whole thing is officially dead.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I think you are reading rather too much into this, I was pushing back on posts that get put up on this thread by a certain poster with no discussion or follow-up. In a way it's replying in kind to posts like the ones constantly citing Guido, a bit puerile perhaps but at times neccesary and hey, none of us are perfect. I find it interesting that you are OK with those posts but find my responses so objectionable (and then patronisingly accuse me of biases - which is in fact (dare I use that word) just turning around points on me that I made previously, not very original.

Why do you keep replying, if the posts from Pinfire are peurile or unworthy ?
Im OK with anyone posting theyre opinion, for both sides of the argument, and Ive never said yours are objectionable, but you are BIASED , as am I , I know I am , its what I believe in, you need to recognise it in yourself is all.

 

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

There you go again, I didn't say that (or anything like it), and you accuse my thought processes of defying logic. 

 

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And I'm the patronising one, right.

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

There is an inevitable aspect of inane discussion here but those posts just take the biscuit. A further part of the problem here is that "factual" pretty much no longer has any useful meaning as we ALL manipulate it to meet our desired ends.

Where did I call you patronising ?

 

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Is that a serious question? So you're suggesting that Brexiteers are being persecuted, victimised or ??

Never said that either, but the tone of yours and some other remainers here and elsewhere has the underlying accent of ridicule, whilst leavers dont tend to do it back.
Are you saying that Ive got this wrong ?

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm sorry but isn't that statement itself highly stereotypical?

You tell me, do you not have a little chuckle when someone mentions the pink faced ,uneducated, racist, Brexiteer 'who didnt know what he voted for ' ?

 

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Several times now I have offered something back and each time it's used against you or turned around, this hard-line uncompromising attitude is one of the key reasons we are in the situation we are with Brexit and it's becoming increasingly hard not to honestly say I won't laugh in the faces of such people once the whole thing is officially dead.

 

23 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

How is it going to bite me exactly, interesting rhetoric but sorry I'm not buying it. 

As above.

Edited April 17, 2019 by Rewulf

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Why do you keep replying, if the posts from Pinfire are peurile or unworthy ?

I think I've ignored more than I've replied to but sometimes...

Im OK with anyone posting theyre opinion, for both sides of the argument, and Ive never said yours are objectionable, but you are BIASED , as am I , I know I am , its what I believe in, you need to recognise it in yourself is all.

I already said we are all biased, that includes me! 

Where did I call you patronising ?

I did not mean you specifically but accused on this thread several times by others. 

Never said that either, but the tone of yours and some other remainers here and elsewhere has the underlying accent of ridicule, whilst leavers dont tend to do it back.
Are you saying that Ive got this wrong ?

When I first posted on this thread and another one on climate change I was metaphorically jumped on, not only were my views ridiculed but I was personally insulted by faceless keyboard warriors, some of which was pretty unsavoury but never mind, ultimately futile.

You tell me, do you not have a little chuckle when someone mentions the pink faced ,uneducated, racist, Brexiteer 'who didnt know what he voted for ' ?

I will admit that I immediately thought of Mark Francois when I heard the phrase "gammon" for the first time. I would expect he'd even chuckle to himself on that...

As above.

I guess we'll see...