Interesting read regarding the lead shot saga

[Old farrier]

4 hours ago, lancer425 said:

As soon as  we comply with the details of the Voluntary ban, IE Non Lead in all live quarry, we will start to see results. But To meet the Non plaswad aspect, it is looking less likeley we can meet that realisticaly this season, but the emergence of the jocker card cup card cup sealed sealed steel loads, could be the first of many such rounds that could become available fairly soon. what are we a week and a half in so far. Early days. More seem interested in obeying self imposed land owners fibe only rules than the steel wad in the game aspect at this stage. I feel there as to be some compromise somewhere. And i think ignoring the plaswad aspect and at least fullfiling the non lead in meat aspect is more important short term, and is what i will be doing certainly untill i can get my hands on some of comercial fibre steel "the jockers perhaps" or have worked out / located wadding and developed my own reloads.  At this very moment in time OFF season, i only need worry about pigeons crows rabbits and fox, i will just use rifles  on fox and rabbits, "BUT I DO FOX AND RABBIT WITH SHOTGUN" . I will load home dropped bismuth within the month "known develpoped loads" and i will hand mould bismuth in a AAA mould i have for my sighted Fox shooting shotgun i use day calling quite often.

Pigeons and crows i will Use Steel in plaswads untill i get other loads with fibre, and i will use up lead i have in hand right now on crows , to clear the decks. But will be Ultimately be looking at steel non plaswad indi cast steel reloads. in the fullness of time. I am looking at Reloading/ load development NON PLASWAD ammo for the coming season from now on, But will use bismuth and copper more this year as i have already developed loads with fibre wads, i will just swap the plas gas seals for inverted cup seals and pressure test, but basicaly i am more of less good to go anyway. WE need more wad options, sooner the better. IMO.

Why go to all the bother expense there’s a 3 inch steel with biodegradable wad on the market you’ve got a 3.1/2 chambered gun 

I can understand going to the trouble if you’re shooting a 2.1/2 of small bore

 

[8 shot]

21 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Slow Down. This was what i replied too to make it clear.

"But what do they do with the stuff they're paid to take away or given ? "

My reply was "Fertiliser " folow the posts . It should have READ "fertiliser? " In hindsight.  

BEEP.......BEEP......BEEP.......BEEP.....BEEP......BEEP.....BEEP.....🚚....

[lancer425]

29 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Why go to all the bother expense there’s a 3 inch steel with biodegradable wad on the market you’ve got a 3.1/2 chambered gun 

I can understand going to the trouble if you’re shooting a 2.1/2 of small bore

 

I like the increased performance and i can adjust the load to suit what gun i am using it in. I know what is in my loads exactly, if i want a change of shot size i know that that shot size did in that gun / choke before. Now a lot of this will be worthless info, but the basics might get me close enough to be efficient enough, but just as essay not be any use to me any more. 

Move from Plaswads as rendered most of what i have done with non tox over the past 20 years worthless. It is just about ground ZERO. now.

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I like the increased performance and i can adjust the load to suit what gun i am using it in. I know what is in my loads exactly, if i want a change of shot size i know that that shot size did in that gun / choke before. Now a lot of this will be worthless info, but the basics might get me close enough to be efficient enough, but just as essay not be any use to me any more. 

Move from Plaswads as rendered most of what i have done with non tox over the past 20 years worthless. It is just about ground ZERO. now.

Ok thanks for the reply I understand wish you well on the journey to a cartridge that suits your needs 😊👍

[Saltings]

just how much lead is in shot these days     tower shot was mostly lead  now most shot is spun coming from Italy or china with loads of junk metals as cheap send it fast its ok  true lead shot 1200fps was the fastest as otherwise the  pattern  was blown  

minimal lead    in shot these days     lead flattens   junk metals crush 

[rbrowning2]

5 hours ago, Saltings said:

just how much lead is in shot these days     tower shot was mostly lead  now most shot is spun coming from Italy or china with loads of junk metals as cheap send it fast its ok  true lead shot 1200fps was the fastest as otherwise the  pattern  was blown  

minimal lead    in shot these days     lead flattens   junk metals crush 

What junk metal do you think is in it then?  If you crush a pellet do you not flatten it? 

we just go round and round, bottom line is this has been a very badly conceived idea, badly planed and badly executed, the consequences of which will mean the vast majority will carry on as before and it will fail to drive up game consumption actually the opposite could happen.
The more I read on forums and Facebook the more you reach the conclusion game shooting is really untenable and unjustifiable unless all the game is eaten and now we have definitely educated the customers about the evil of lead. I will leave you to work out how it will all end, but anybody for simulated game?

[grahamch]

Surely the answer is to ban the sale of all wildfowl, woodcock and snipe etc. Limiting the market to pheasants and partridge would help a great deal. Maybe it is time to have bag limits too and stop commercial shoots who rear and release immoral and unsustainable numbers of birds. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by grahamch

[Penelope]

On 05/03/2020 at 17:45, Perazzishot said:

Did you know that that the most valuable part of a game bird is?

The feathers, which are ground up as pure protein to support the fur trade.

 

Interesting. Having been involved in the carp bait world some time ok, the science was that the conversion rate of feather meal was not very good, hence the reliance on fish, crustacean, milk, vegetable and animal meals.

[lancer425]

6 hours ago, Saltings said:

just how much lead is in shot these days     tower shot was mostly lead  now most shot is spun coming from Italy or china with loads of junk metals as cheap send it fast its ok  true lead shot 1200fps was the fastest as otherwise the  pattern  was blown  

minimal lead    in shot these days     lead flattens   junk metals crush 

You do not get real lead any more has you say, it started with clay shooting loads to cheapen the ammo, claims being better patterns and better on clays. , was little heard of in hunting ammo.

The persuit of velocity and its marketing hype was another driver away from true chilled lead shot.   Winchester with their copper platted BBs were some of the last decent lead shot available in i suppose the early to mid 90s now.

In the day you could stone hatchet a pink and when you ran your hand down the breat feathers the lead was flat little pennies. never saw that ever with that Italian made lead ian charlton started getting in close to the end.

It will not make huge difference in the spacific gravity yables perhaps, but on the quarry itself its not the same. I can not think of another way of wording this but higher antimony lead of recent times never seemed to SHOCK EM like proper lead does. .

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

What junk metal do you think is in it then?  If you crush a pellet do you not flatten it? 

we just go round and round, bottom line is this has been a very badly conceived idea, badly planed and badly executed, the consequences of which will mean the vast majority will carry on as before and it will fail to drive up game consumption actually the opposite could happen.
The more I read on forums and Facebook the more you reach the conclusion game shooting is really untenable and unjustifiable unless all the game is eaten and now we have definitely educated the customers about the evil of lead. I will leave you to work out how it will all end, but anybody for simulated game?

We live in a very small country, and its a strange fact but we are very easily influenced by relatively minor insignificant events.  And i genuinely feel people folow like sheep, we are not all vegans yet, and people like hugh farnley whitingstall to name one, do use game and think waitrose marketing will have done some research into this at some point.

  I will illustrate one aspect some here might be able to relate too re tv chefs.   I have always been a Bass angler, but come rick steins input on bass they went from relatively little used fish , to top must get commodities in a very short time.  Not saying he was responsible for all the European sea bass troubles but the cheffs certainly drove a trend for cookery aficionados using them thats got to have had some effect. so why not Game meat.

Wasted game as been noted, to jump up and want to start to use it is a good thing. Botham tried but got chewed up by the radio, Disgusting in my opinion but there you go todays media controlers will have their say , if its right or wrong has no significance to these individuals , but fair play to Ian botham for trying to do some good.

 

[Dibble]

It's strange how on Social media that interview is being portraid as Sir Ian being an arrogant bully. I thought he did remarkably well responding to an ambush, it depends on your perspective I suppose.

He could have slowed the pace and asked more open questions particularly as to where some of her information, 50million pheasant, hen harriers etc., came from, but she would probably replied she was the one asking the questions.

It seemed to me the bloke had to jump in to rescue her after she became flustered such as calling him Mr Botham .

Edited March 11, 2020 by Dibble

[Saltings]

On 11/03/2020 at 09:38, lancer425 said:

You do not get real lead any more has you say, it started with clay shooting loads to cheapen the ammo, claims being better patterns and better on clays. , was little heard of in hunting ammo.

The persuit of velocity and its marketing hype was another driver away from true chilled lead shot.   Winchester with their copper platted BBs were some of the last decent lead shot available in i suppose the early to mid 90s now.

In the day you could stone hatchet a pink and when you ran your hand down the breat feathers the lead was flat little pennies. never saw that ever with that Italian made lead ian charlton started getting in close to the end.

It will not make huge difference in the spacific gravity yables perhaps, but on the quarry itself its not the same. I can not think of another way of wording this but higher antimony lead of recent times never seemed to SHOCK EM like proper lead does. .

nice to see a fowler who has used soft lead and the end results   as I remember with Winchester shells    aa  aaa   zz  ely alphamax  Baikal large copper primers 10 in a box    less meat damage  back in the day    more meat on the plate rather than throw it in the bin as shot to hell   I have dripped soft  lead shot and reloaded enough   for myself and two sons and one daughter  to shoot 75 to 100  sporting on every Sundays and 50 sporting Tuesdays  and  a few hundred pigeons during the week/ weekends given work commitments not to mention muzzle loading days on game  soft shot kills better than hard lead    two pellets flattened better than a dozen through ant trough to die later for the last 30yrs            I shoot steel  to American recipes on the foreshore   it kills   it destroys   its soup    it will kill      however better than cip regs    on steel   as cripples       two  pellets of soft lead in the neck dead  twenty steel in the body dead    meat     scrap         I shoot for meat  and enjoy  all game  meats   I put the effort in  I want a decent product on the table   minimal trauma to flesh      shot to bits is just killing and  no respect for your quarry as un usable   chuck it in the bin            ( the least  damage and most efficient dispatch  of any quarry  to table   gets my vote every day)

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, Saltings said:

nice to see a fowler who has used soft lead and the end results   as I remember with Winchester shells    aa  aaa   zz  ely alphamax  Baikal large copper primers 10 in a box    less meat damage  back in the day    more meat on the plate rather than throw it in the bin as shot to hell   I have dripped soft  lead shot and reloaded enough   for myself and two sons and one daughter  to shoot 75 to 100  sporting on every Sundays and 50 sporting Tuesdays  and  a few hundred pigeons during the week/ weekends given work commitments not to mention muzzle loading days on game  soft shot kills better than hard lead    two pellets flattened better than a dozen through ant trough to die later for the last 30yrs            I shoot steel  to American recipes on the foreshore   it kills   it destroys   its soup    it will kill      however better than cip regs    on steel   as cripples       two  pellets of soft lead in the neck dead  twenty steel in the body dead    meat     scrap         I shoot for meat  and enjoy  all game  meats   I put the effort in  I want a decent product on the table   minimal trauma to flesh      shot to bits is just killing and  no respect for your quarry as un usable   chuck it in the bin            ( the least  damage and most efficient dispatch  of any quarry  to table   gets my vote every day)

I think along the same lines,  soft lead "shocked them" as i term this. A combination of slow big shot buffered and at the slower speed "1210FPS max" to combat the deformity of such shot. Gave good results with a nice core pattern to front end a goose yet sufficient energy to get some lethal pellets through that breast featherwork.   The big saviour of steel is its typical patterns, in suitable choked  guns.

 Front end again is the way to do it and if you can get the few big steel pellets in the body it will indeed do the job well. I think in the context of this thread, and of course with the caveat of these Steel fibre wads aside. Steel is suitable for pigeon game and duck & rabbit at typcal shotgun ranges, but do admit CIP restriction are not ideal and loading to SAMI rules is the way to go.

  The future will not be the same, but we do not know what new shot types will be developed, if we look back 20 years ok we had ITM bismuth etc, but could we have imagined TSS back then. NO!  but we could be talking about another new shot just as revolutionary in another 20 years.   ITM was toungsten bassed softish killed well enough, with a less abrasive composition and a lower price, something along ITM lines might be the way to go for every shotgun load, and become the standard shot media that lead was over the years, before the advent of non tox.