new question - hip score

[KillStone]

looking up hip scoring and I understand Right/left and you are looking for a balanced low number. Found a Labrador stud dog that has 0:0 elbow score but hips 3/6. I would be looking to have a pup from a litter he'd father in the next couple months would you let this hip score put you off? other than that he looks a great dog, working dog 20+ field trial champs in 5 gens etc etc. so if the dam is a good dog (currently unknown as yet to be chosen) would that be an acceptable hip score to you? Sorry very little dog buying experience her (only had 1 dog this will be my second) 

thanks

[Dave at kelton]

I would not hesitate to take a pup from parents with that hip score. I believe it is at the median for the breed.

[London Best]

What Dave said.

[Konnie]

When I did some dog breeding tried to get dog & bitch with a hip score below 10 and balanced within 2 digits. 

So dog 4/6 would be max 

Bitch   I would always try to get lower than dog as I believe a larger amount of Gene's come from the bitch. So in this case 3/5

So from a maximum combined 20 you have 18

This is how I used to look for dogs and never had any hip trouble  but kennel club also have a compatibility test for both blood lines on their web site.

[KillStone]

Thanks for the replies sounds like whilst not ideal it is still well within realms of acceptable so long as the dam will be equal or lower. cheers for enlightening me I find the process of choosing a pup very daunting and just don't want to make a silly mistake! 👍

[TR1]

It is also important to understand how the score breaks down.

Several factors are used to make up each side hip score (eg sublaxation) if the score is made up of several individual feature scores of 1 it is less of a problem than have a score of 6 from one attribute.

[KillStone]

12 hours ago, TR1 said:

It is also important to understand how the score breaks down.

Several factors are used to make up each side hip score (eg sublaxation) if the score is made up of several individual feature scores of 1 it is less of a problem than have a score of 6 from one attribute.

Okay didn’t know that but makes sense. I’m guessing that’ll be shown on the vets certificate then. Something I will definitely look into on any potential parent of pup then. Thanks for the advice 

[al4x]

Also check the age they were scored at.  Breeders will get their dogs scored as early as they can as wear reduces scores. Some having an occasional litter will only score when they know they want to breed so the dog could be a couple of years older so a higher score is more acceptable

[Dave at kelton]

17 hours ago, KillStone said:

Thanks for the replies sounds like whilst not ideal it is still well within realms of acceptable so long as the dam will be equal or lower. cheers for enlightening me I find the process of choosing a pup very daunting and just don't want to make a silly mistake! 👍

You can get very wound up by all of this. It is right to be thorough and cautious but in my experience disasters are rare these days. I do not breed from my labs but once thought about it with a very good dog. Got him xrayed and the vet told me not to even bother submitting as the hips were so bad. I kept the weight off that dog and kept him fit. He worked without a problem until he was 12, including wildfowling.

Good luck whichever way you choose to go.

[WalkedUp]

One of my dogs had perfect joints, and  a few years ago cut through his knee on a jagged rock after slipping on ice. Freak accident. Aged 10 he now limps after long days. 
 

Hip scoring should be to improve the overall breed quality, I would look at the working quality of the dam and sire more keenly than hips/colour etc. 

[Dave at kelton]

2 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

One of my dogs had perfect joints, and  a few years ago cut through his knee on a jagged rock after slipping on ice. Freak accident. Aged 10 he now limps after long days. 
 

Hip scoring should be to improve the overall breed quality, I would look at the working quality of the dam and sire more keenly than hips/colour etc. 

Absolutely right you want to know ability to work and nature just as much if not more so!

[Old farrier]

You can have the best scores in the world and then get a dud pup 

see the parents and judge there working abilities and temperament/train abilities 

Ask the breeder if they were easy or hard to train eager to work

lots more to it than a few points on a card although it does show the commitment of the breeder if they have had it done  
 

best of luck with your search 👍

[KillStone]

Thank you all for helping me out on this I definitely feel more confident in searching for a pup now and you've raised some great points id never of known so cheers for the help. The breeder/kennels I am looking at getting one from owns both the dam and sire so at the time I could ask to see both parents and hopefully at least the sire work a little bit and make a judgement call of my own off of that along with talking to the breeder and looking at the health certs which I know understand a bit more I feel like ill be giving myself the best chance of a good result! lots to this when your inexperienced!

[WalkedUp]

Also the best dog for you will not be the best dog for me. You need to know your own shooting and working, and see what you need or want from a dog. 
 

My old bitch years ago had the best brain, completely capable of working without instruction. In one drive I got stuck in mud and couldn’t free myself instantly. She kept up with the line, not ahead or behind and worked for the other guns. One could even send her on a retrieve. She knew if there was anything in cover and would kill her self to get it, or refuse to go in if it was barren. Very independent and suited my wife more than me. My current dog is very bonded to me, loves to please and I am the only thing in his life. He will ignore anything to just stare at me with intensity waiting to work, never switches off and when he was young was hard work if not working. My newest young bitch is great all rounder but has no attention span if bored. They are all different but you can see the parents and then the pups and decide. If I was competing again I would get another intense dog, very stylish for hunting and retrieving, like a bull. 

[Lloyd90]

On 02/05/2020 at 21:26, KillStone said:

looking up hip scoring and I understand Right/left and you are looking for a balanced low number. Found a Labrador stud dog that has 0:0 elbow score but hips 3/6. I would be looking to have a pup from a litter he'd father in the next couple months would you let this hip score put you off? other than that he looks a great dog, working dog 20+ field trial champs in 5 gens etc etc. so if the dam is a good dog (currently unknown as yet to be chosen) would that be an acceptable hip score to you? Sorry very little dog buying experience her (only had 1 dog this will be my second) 

thanks

 

I wouldn't worry about them scores, but I am sat here wondering why you have picked the stud dog but have no idea of the bitch he is to be mated to?  

 

Anyone can take a bitch that is just a pet, taken on the odd walk and might make a half attempted retrieve on an open field... breed it to the latest in favour stud dog, and proclaim that both parents are top workers, and how they have lots of champions in the pedigree (all on the sire's side usually)... 

I would BY FAR be more concerned about finding a bitch with the skills and qualities you desire. A good breeder will spend a lot of time choosing a sire that will usually be line bred to his bitch, and hopefully enhance the desirable qualities that they see in her. 

 

 

[KillStone]

11 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I wouldn't worry about them scores, but I am sat here wondering why you have picked the stud dog but have no idea of the bitch he is to be mated to?  

 

Anyone can take a bitch that is just a pet, taken on the odd walk and might make a half attempted retrieve on an open field... breed it to the latest in favour stud dog, and proclaim that both parents are top workers, and how they have lots of champions in the pedigree (all on the sire's side usually)... 

I would BY FAR be more concerned about finding a bitch with the skills and qualities you desire. A good breeder will spend a lot of time choosing a sire that will usually be line bred to his bitch, and hopefully enhance the desirable qualities that they see in her. 

 

 

The simple reason being- stud dogs are advertised but I have yet to see a bitch be advertised until already in pup and “all pups taken via waiting list”. I agree and I will be needing all health checks and pedigree of the bitch when one is selected before I went ahead with choosing them. Also The owner of the dog in question is also the owner of the potential bitches which are the progeny of his unrelated retired stud dog- this shows me that he is breeding to produce the best working dog puppies he can to keep one of for himself! he is just waiting to see which of his girls comes into season to be mated- all are working dogs and I’d see both mother and father prior to taking the pup. Believe me i will be very vigilant within my knowledge limitation to choose a pup from the best working parentage I can find on both sides. It was just at the present time I have info on the would be sire not the dam and I needed help to understand the hip scores which I will then apply to the mothers scores too. 

 

[Lloyd90]

11 hours ago, KillStone said:

The simple reason being- stud dogs are advertised but I have yet to see a bitch be advertised until already in pup and “all pups taken via waiting list”. I agree and I will be needing all health checks and pedigree of the bitch when one is selected before I went ahead with choosing them. Also The owner of the dog in question is also the owner of the potential bitches which are the progeny of his unrelated retired stud dog- this shows me that he is breeding to produce the best working dog puppies he can to keep one of for himself! he is just waiting to see which of his girls comes into season to be mated- all are working dogs and I’d see both mother and father prior to taking the pup. Believe me i will be very vigilant within my knowledge limitation to choose a pup from the best working parentage I can find on both sides. It was just at the present time I have info on the would be sire not the dam and I needed help to understand the hip scores which I will then apply to the mothers scores too. 

 

 

Good lad  ... find a good breeder who is breeding to produce quality for themselves, and selling the excess  I imagine the breeder is line breeding his stuff? 

[KillStone]

Had to google "line breeding" haha but no I believe the bitch is from his other completely unrelated stud dog (also a working "fox red" lab from working lines with FTCh throughout his 5 gen pedigree on both sides) so not even remotely related if I have read into the email correctly. Or not at this stage in the breeding lines anyway perhaps its his intention further down the lines to do that, I do not know. I only go off the fact that if I was fortunate enough to have a really good dog one day then I would breed a litter so I could have a pup from it and then as you say sell the excess to good working homes so if he's doing the same that'd give me more confidence that the pups are being bred with the best intentions and with that logic. Wont really know more until I get details of the bitch to be mated or indeed until I meet both breeder and dogs. Im still searching the internet looking for one but this has definitely been my best lead so far into finding a good one. Seems a bit of a minefield tbh and quite daunting but quite lucky to have all you experienced guys on here to quiz with my naïve questions so I 100% thank you all for continuing to help. Shooting and decoying I can offer a bit of experience and perhaps a tiny morsel of knowledge but dogs I have very little of either but id rather ask questions than try to blag it and make a mistake!