Lead free shotgun cartridges

[Terry2016]

5 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Would you like to tell us the average amount of cartridges you fire on a day game shooting and the gun that you would generally use the steel cartridges with?

Th number of shots vary so do the guns i use, i do not only shoot game. i have used steel on game, pigeons and wildfowl.

Generally a browning over and under well as semi autos.

I also use a pair of old english side by sides. as soon as i can get some of the new 2.5" eley biodegradable i will use the, 

[Terry2016]

1 hour ago, McSpredder said:

Is there actual evidence that those pictures are false?   Does a person need special training or qualifications in order to distinguish between real pictures and false ones, or is anybody entitled to pronounce "Fake news, fake news", in the manner of a well known politician?

If you are suggesting that hard shot (eg steel) will not ricochet more than softer shot (eg lead), how would you reconcile that with all evidence relating to coefficient of restitution, a concept that has been taught in school science classes for a very long time and is employed in some types of hardness testing instruments?

is there any proof to say they are real ?? i can say from experience steel cases no issue? hence i do not believe the pictures to be real i have seen.

likewise the gun shop video shows there is no damage caused by steel to even an old english gun. 

I have not heard of one person come forwards and say it has damaged my gun ? only stories. 

No of course the hard the metal the more chance of ricochet .. however without getting to technical the harder shot will also penetrate better ever wondered why a 22lr ricochet so much and yet they are fully lead? 

My point is a ricochet will also happen from lead. so a safe shot is a safe shot regardless of material.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Terry2016 said:

Th number of shots vary so do the guns i use, i do not only shoot game. i have used steel on game, pigeons and wildfowl.

Generally a browning over and under well as semi autos.

I also use a pair of old english side by sides. as soon as i can get some of the new 2.5" eley biodegradable i will use the, 

I’m going to take that reply as not many 

a simple reply to how many shots at game would have been easy along with the gun you use the steel in

we can discount the pair no ammunition available and the semi auto (not really suitable)For game 

so your answer could have been 

for game I shoot a browning over and under and fire approximately xxxxxxx steel cartridges on each day 

[Terry2016]

15 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’m going to take that reply as not many 

a simple reply to how many shots at game would have been easy along with the gun you use the steel in

we can discount the pair no ammunition available and the semi auto (not really suitable)For game 

so your answer could have been 

for game I shoot a browning over and under and fire approximately xxxxxxx steel cartridges on each day 

Why would you take it as not many?

I would say i shoot rather a lot over multiple disciplines and none of the guns i have used show any issue with steel. 

Why does it have to be at game? last season i will have shot over 30 days on game. for many of this i shot eley vip steel biodegradable and zeniths. 

As i said i do not always use an under & over, i also use a S x S...

Edited August 9, 2020 by Terry2016

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Why would you take it as not many?

I would say i shoot rather a lot over multiple disciplines and none of the guns i have used show any issue with steel. 

Why does it have to be at game? last season i will have shot over 30 days on game. for many of this i shot steel eley vip steel biodegradable and zeniths. 

 

The question was at game 

I’m not interested in other disciplines  and from your answer I know that you can’t have fired any steel cartridges at game with a nice lightweight English game gun the best you could have done is with your browning 

so 30 days = 300 or 3000+ cartridges assuming you buy them you should know how many you purchase 

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, Terry2016 said:

is there any proof to say they are real ?? i can say from experience steel cases no issue? hence i do not believe the pictures to be real i have seen.

likewise the gun shop video shows there is no damage caused by steel to even an old english gun. 

I have not heard of one person come forwards and say it has damaged my gun ? only stories. 

No of course the hard the metal the more chance of ricochet .. however without getting to technical the harder shot will also penetrate better ever wondered why a 22lr ricochet so much and yet they are fully lead? 

My point is a ricochet will also happen from lead. so a safe shot is a safe shot regardless of material.

Your statement that “the pictures are false” seems to be just a personal opinion, with no evidence offered in support of the allegation that those pictures were “made up by people who have no clue”.

The statements that “steel ricochet is not a concern” and that “a safe shot regardless of material” appear to contradict the European organisation FACE.   Their publication says “All shot types, including lead, can ricochet. However, shot materials of greater hardness than lead, particularly steel and some tungsten-based shot, can ricochet more and are more likely to bounce-back.”

 

[motty]

19 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Would you like to tell us the average amount of cartridges you fire on a day game shooting and the gun that you would generally use the steel cartridges with?

I know that Anthony Poolman uses maybe 500+ steel cartridges a day when pigeon shooting. He uses an o/u.

15 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Is there actual evidence that those pictures are false?   Does a person need special training or qualifications in order to distinguish between real pictures and false ones, or is anybody entitled to pronounce "Fake news, fake news", in the manner of a well known politician?

If you are suggesting that hard shot (eg steel) will not ricochet more than softer shot (eg lead), how would you reconcile that with all evidence relating to coefficient of restitution, a concept that has been taught in school science classes for a very long time and is employed in some types of hardness testing instruments?

I have seen pictures of apparent damage that have turned out to be fake. I have also never heard of anyone to have suffered damage to their guns through using steel. Considering I know a lot of wildfowlers, if steel was really that bad for guns, I would surely have heard about some issues by now.

[Smiler23]

IV put plenty (1000,s)of steel now through a 2 3/4" in Aya yeoman..  half and full.. no damage what so ever..chokes are still the same... IV used up to steel #bb in it.. 

[243deer]

https://www.gwct.org.uk/policy/briefings/lead-ammunition/

This page, which keeps being touted as bible with all folk who want to see a lead ban, has a major flaw. Unlike wikipedia there are no links for folk to be able to read the sources of information.

So a sample of grey partridge was taken in 2005 and some percentage statistics were created suggesting a problem with lead ingestion. We do not know the source of the birds. If the source was a major shoot with many days shooting on a relatively small area used persistently by several guns firing a lot of shots then, of course, these results can be produced but they are not at all typical of the ordinary little shoots and the part time pigeon shooter. 

Many wildfowl are still being affected apparently - estimated numbers with no factual evidence. Where is the lead coming from that is affecting them? Wildfowlers have done their bit, anglers have done their bit which leaves large shoots really as that is the only other source of massive amounts of lead shot - if this is the case let us see some real evidence.

New Zealand are often a source of common sense when it comes to shooting, their view is somewhat different https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

Do you see what I have done there guys from BASC, GWCT, NGO etc etc etc - I have quoted up to date joined up evidence from a source that I consider reliable and so I will do a classic political tactic of just quoting one bit 'The 200m rule recognises that lead is not a problem away from waterways. '

 

[Terry2016]

17 hours ago, Old farrier said:

The question was at game 

I’m not interested in other disciplines  and from your answer I know that you can’t have fired any steel cartridges at game with a nice lightweight English game gun the best you could have done is with your browning 

so 30 days = 300 or 3000+ cartridges assuming you buy them you should know how many you purchase 

You should be because i use the same gun with steel at other quarry 

I shoot thousands of rounds through my browning- STEEL ONES at live quarry including game 

It kills and there is no damage to the gun.

2 hours ago, Smiler23 said:

IV put plenty (1000,s)of steel now through a 2 3/4" in Aya yeoman..  half and full.. no damage what so ever..chokes are still the same... IV used up to steel #bb in it.. 

👍

 

17 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Your statement that “the pictures are false” seems to be just a personal opinion, with no evidence offered in support of the allegation that those pictures were “made up by people who have no clue”.

The statements that “steel ricochet is not a concern” and that “a safe shot regardless of material” appear to contradict the European organisation FACE.   Their publication says “All shot types, including lead, can ricochet. However, shot materials of greater hardness than lead, particularly steel and some tungsten-based shot, can ricochet more and are more likely to bounce-back.”

 

Mc, we asked to see the pictures so far none have been presented.  the question was asked by Motty and i agree. i have not seen any damage to any guns in the decades that i have been shooting by steel 

As per my post yes harder material does ricochet more but it also penetrates more.  however an unsafe shot is just as unsafe with lead as this also ricochets. 

To add ricochets in most cases unless standing in close proximity have lost the majority of velocity and pose no huge threat.

Just more scaremongering. bounce back? from what .. how close is your quarry ? 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Terry2016

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

You should be because i use the same gun with steel at other quarry 

I shoot thousands of rounds through my browning- STEEL ONES at live quarry including game 

It kills and there is no damage to the gun.

👍

 

Sorry you have lost me here the top of the thread was about steel and English game guns 

which is why I asked for information about the quantity and type of gun 

I can and do fire plenty of steel cartridges through a browning however it’s a totally different thing firing the same through a lightweight English game gun 

[Terry2016]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Sorry you have lost me here the top of the thread was about steel and English game guns 

which is why I asked for information about the quantity and type of gun 

I can and do fire plenty of steel cartridges through a browning however it’s a totally different thing firing the same through a lightweight English game gun 

 

My point remains that steel will not damage your gun. hence the new eley load in 2.5" for old traditional guns. 

Ask me again next year as i will have used them and can confirm if what i say is true. 👍

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

 

My point remains that steel will not damage your gun. hence the new eley load in 2.5" for old traditional guns. 

Ask me again next year as i will have used them and can confirm if what i say is true. 👍

Are you sure ? if so why Have Basc stipulated no more than 1/2 chokes on the trying steel days 

[Terry2016]

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Are you sure ? if so why Have Basc stipulated no more than 1/2 chokes on the trying steel days 

Because that the guidance set out by manufacturers. 

Many people put steel through tighther chokes and no damage as i understand it.. i do not i stick to the guidance 

the reason is steel does not compress as it goes down the constriction like lead. 

if your chokes are less than Half you will have no issue. 

if you choose not to comply ... well thats up to you.. its no different from putting a 67mm cartridge in a 65mm chamber... up to you

if you need your chokes opening up whip to a gunsmith for around £60 done. 

if the walls are too thin it can't be opened up should you be shooting it at all ,...?

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Terry2016

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

Because that the guidance set out by manufacturers. 

Many people put steel through tighther chokes and no damage as i understand it.. i do not i stick to the guidance 

the reason is steel does not compress as it goes down the constriction like lead. 

if your chokes are less than Half you will have no issue. 

if you choose not to comply ... well thats up to you.. its no different from putting a 67mm cartridge in a 65mm chamber... up to you

if you need your chokes opening up whip to a gunsmith for around £60 done. 

if the walls are too thin it can't be opened up should you be shooting it at all ,...?

 

So it might damage the gun 🙄

here’s the big picture I’ve got a tight chokes gun that I’m aware of it’s killing abilities as it is but it’s not safe to fire steel through without the expense of removing over half the choke then I’ve got to regulate it to throw the same pattern that I was getting before 

this is easy in a multi choked gun not something that is undertaken lightly in a fixed choke gun 

you can see that the walls arnt thin at the muzzle and the bores measure as original opening them up will only make them thinner 
 

the problem is that the major shooting organisation gave no thought to this or to the cartridges for game shooting where the majority of the short chambered and tightly bored guns are used 

[Terry2016]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

So it might damage the gun 🙄

here’s the big picture I’ve got a tight chokes gun that I’m aware of it’s killing abilities as it is but it’s not safe to fire steel through without the expense of removing over half the choke then I’ve got to regulate it to throw the same pattern that I was getting before 

this is easy in a multi choked gun not something that is undertaken lightly in a fixed choke gun 

you can see that the walls arnt thin at the muzzle and the bores measure as original opening them up will only make them thinner 
 

the problem is that the major shooting organisation gave no thought to this or to the cartridges for game shooting where the majority of the short chambered and tightly bored guns are used 

No it won't damage your gun if you do as guided.. 

Have the chokes taken out to half, generally steel patterns tight so it will be comparable to shooting full choke - failing that shoot bismuth no adjustments needed.

Your last sentence is probably the main crux of your issue, however had they not done anything there's a good chance a ban would be in sooner rather than later and we would all have major issues. for instance there would be no suitable cartridges for the majority of guns. 

It has given the cartridge manufacturers the kick up the A ** they need to get producing suitable cartridges for all.

You can already get ammunition from eley, gambore, jocker, bio ammo, and rio ammo. in 5 months... where will we be in 5 years.. 

Mr packman has made it clear in the latest field sports journal that he wants a ban on lead now. I am sure he will be pushing for this. 

I think we have been bought some time and over the next 4 years we need to find out what works for us and work with the manufacturers to get what we need at the right price. 

it is going to happen either way, it is better that we lead the change than an outright ban.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Terry2016

[Old farrier]

11 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

No it won't damage your gun if you do as guided.. 

Have the chokes taken out to half, generally steel patterns tight so it will be comparable to shooting full choke - failing that shoot bismuth no adjustments needed.

Your last sentence is probably the main crux of your issue, however had they not done anything there's a good chance a ban would be in sooner rather than later and we would all have major issues. for instance there would be no suitable cartridges for the majority of guns. 

It has given the cartridge manufacturers the kick up the A ** they need to get producing suitable cartridges for all.

You can already get ammunition from eley, gambler, jocker, bio ammo, and rio ammo. in 5 months... where will we be in 5 years.. 

Mr packman has made it clear in the latest field sports journal that he wants a ban on lead now. I am sure he will be pushing for this. 

I think we have been bought some time and over the next 4 years we need to find out what works for us and work with the manufacturers to get what we need at the right price. 

it is going to happen either way, it is better that we lead the change than an outright ban.

The season starts in 4 days 

do the bio wads generally pattern tighter with steel ? Or is that a guess 

my main issue is there’s a lot of people saying you’re probably be ok it should be alright spend money on having it altered shoot more expensive cartridges no one can or will say definitely not one manufacturer has come up with a pattern sheet for a gun pattern full with lead 1/2 with steel and I’m not talking multi chokes here 

Maybe you could recommend a good gunmaker that specialises in bore and regulation of shotguns for steel with a bio wad 

 

[London Best]

Old Farrier, I must take issue with your statement,  ‘game shooting.......where the majority of short chambered and tightly bored guns are used.’

You could not be more wrong Sir. The vast majority of 2 1/2 inch chambered guns used for game shooting carry very little, if any choke. The common “standard”, for want of a better word, is imp cyl right and quarter choke left, sometimes up to half choke left but not so common as quarter. For 95% plus British game shooting no more choke is necessary or desirable.

[Old farrier]

24 minutes ago, London Best said:

Old Farrier, I must take issue with your statement,  ‘game shooting.......where the majority of short chambered and tightly bored guns are used.’

You could not be more wrong Sir. The vast majority of 2 1/2 inch chambered guns used for game shooting carry very little, if any choke. The common “standard”, for want of a better word, is imp cyl right and quarter choke left, sometimes up to half choke left but not so common as quarter. For 95% plus British game shooting no more choke is necessary or desirable.

Well sir you’re shooting with a different group of people to me however I personally shoot with a fair amount of choking along with the rest of the team although we do travel to places for the challenge of the higher birds 

have you pattered your English gun with steel cartridges ready for the season? 
as according to some it may pattern tighter now 

[Sean71]

can somebody confirm if my barrels will be able to shoot all types of steel shot as I'm not sure what the proof mark is tried looking it up and can't find it anywhere.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Sean71

[Terry2016]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

The season starts in 4 days 

do the bio wads generally pattern tighter with steel ? Or is that a guess 

my main issue is there’s a lot of people saying you’re probably be ok it should be alright spend money on having it altered shoot more expensive cartridges no one can or will say definitely not one manufacturer has come up with a pattern sheet for a gun pattern full with lead 1/2 with steel and I’m not talking multi chokes here 

Maybe you could recommend a good gunmaker that specialises in bore and regulation of shotguns for steel with a bio wad 

 

steel patterns tighter than lead. 

Biowads perform more like plastic wads than fibre.

I speak of both in experience. 

Yes of course, you do not know me from adam  the thread is regarding steel damaging your guns..

it is now expanding into bore regulation and steel and biowads. Shoot or don't shoot the choice will be yours... 

if i was you i would use bismuth if you are so concerned with steel 

[London Best]

@Old Farrier

No, I will not be putting steel through my English guns until lead is actually illegal. But I have shot a lot of duck and geese over the last twenty odd years using mostly steel, but also bismuth and tungsten, through a Spanish SxS.  
I have six English guns and two Spaniards and the tightest choke in any barrel is .015 inch (3/8)  in the left barrel of my H&H. Seems to work.

Edited August 10, 2020 by London Best

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Old Farrier, I must take issue with your statement,  ‘game shooting.......where the majority of short chambered and tightly bored guns are used.’

You could not be more wrong Sir. The vast majority of 2 1/2 inch chambered guns used for game shooting carry very little, if any choke. The common “standard”, for want of a better word, is imp cyl right and quarter choke left, sometimes up to half choke left but not so common as quarter. For 95% plus British game shooting no more choke is necessary or desirable.

All my dedicated guns are bored IMP and IMP as soon as I can. I'm now down to the two that'll see me beimg my late father's Clarke and my own Boss. The only guns I left relatively choked were a BSA that had been sleeved that I had taken to 1/2 and 1/2 and my thirty-two inch barrel Midland Gun BLE ditto and my current knockabout Belgian BLNE that I've left the right barrel at something or other and left barrel something or other else. The two French guns I'v left as they are which I'm unsure if what that exactly is in either.

Edited August 10, 2020 by enfieldspares

[Terry2016]

14 minutes ago, Sean71 said:

can somebody confirm if my barrels will be able to shoot all types of steel shot as I'm not sure what the proof mark is tried looking it up and can't find it anywhere.

 

On the Barrel under the CIP sign that looks like a "Fleur de Lis"

This will be steel proof for HP steel. if multi choke shoot half choke or less.

[Sean71]

1 minute ago, Terry2016 said:

On the Barrel under the CIP sign that looks like a "Fleur de Lis"

This will be steel proof for HP steel. if multi choke shoot half choke or less.

Thank you Terry for clearing that up for me.