Yellow Bear Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, AVB said: Should people lose their jobs (aviation, leisure, hospitality, sport etc etc.) because of you? No, however they would still be alive and not spreading it to vulnerable relatives and friends, but there again why should I have to risk loosing my life in a painful manner because some of them flout conditions put in place to minimise spread, hospitality would have fewer problems if they stuck to even the 1+ guidance. WRT aviation and much leisure, this is a pandemic and many other countries are banning travel, penalising UK vulnerable is not going to help these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: No, however they would still be alive and not spreading it to vulnerable relatives and friends, but there again why should I have to risk loosing my life in a painful manner because some of them flout conditions put in place to minimise spread, hospitality would have fewer problems if they stuck to even the 1+ guidance. WRT aviation and much leisure, this is a pandemic and many other countries are banning travel, penalising UK vulnerable is not going to help these. Sorry but you are kidding yourself if you think it is people having a few drinks that are causing it to spread. The workplace is a major contributor, as are hospitals (see picture). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetree Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 6 hours ago, Yellow Bear said: So, in your view, what are these "sensible precautions" but before you answer consider Raja's post. They would be that if you are part of the very small percentage of the general population for whom covid could be a serious issue (very old, co-morbidity of 1 or 2 other serious medical issues, then the gov guidelines make sense. If you are part of the overwhelming majority for whom covid will be asymtomatic or mild, the those same guidelines are ridiculous, and will without doubt cause more death than the virus itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Yellow Bear said: you just need to curtail your close social contact for a bit For how long??? This virus is here to stay, and a safe working vaccine is a long long way off and only good until the virus mutates. We all need to just get on with living. Edited October 10, 2020 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 28 minutes ago, treetree said: They would be that if you are part of the very small percentage of the general population for whom covid could be a serious issue (very old, co-morbidity of 1 or 2 other serious medical issues, then the gov guidelines make sense. If you are part of the overwhelming majority for whom covid will be asymtomatic or mild, the those same guidelines are ridiculous, and will without doubt cause more death than the virus itself. At 71 with serious asthma aggravated by work related exposure to Aspergillis (exposure considered due to keeping hospital theatres operational) so not "very old". HMG considers me at high risk. So you from your high horse consider me dispensable so you can have a good time, and to tell me it is due to the economy, it is not. Have you actually read these guidance conditions for the at risk group? I think not, as to totally follow them is virtual house arrest which could be 20 years they are far harder than the restrictions on the general populace. I cannot see the overwhelming majority (if their mindset is like yours giving) a fig about this. This group amounts to about 5% of the population the majority of which are under 75. If I was to say what has been said in this thread about any other minority groups of this size there would be howls of discrimination and ***ist hate speech. 8 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: For how long??? This virus is here to stay, and a safe working vaccine is a long long way off and only good until the virus mutates. We all need to just get on with living. Yes we ALL need to get on with living and this requires a little give and not take from the supposedly unaffected majority at lease attempting to "play by the rules". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: At 71 with serious asthma aggravated by work related exposure to Aspergillis (exposure considered due to keeping hospital theatres operational) so not "very old". HMG considers me at high risk. So you from your high horse consider me dispensable so you can have a good time, and to tell me it is due to the economy, it is not. Have you actually read these guidance conditions for the at risk group? I think not, as to totally follow them is virtual house arrest which could be 20 years they are far harder than the restrictions on the general populace. I cannot see the overwhelming majority (if their mindset is like yours giving) a fig about this. This group amounts to about 5% of the population the majority of which are under 75. If I was to say what has been said in this thread about any other minority groups of this size there would be howls of discrimination and ***ist hate speech. Yes we ALL need to get on with living and this requires a little give and not take from the supposedly unaffected majority at lease attempting to "play by the rules". So what did you do when advised to self isolate earlier on this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 30 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: Yes we ALL need to get on with living and this requires a little give and not take from the supposedly unaffected majority at lease attempting to "play by the rules". What's stopping you? Get on with your life and keep to social distancing. Social distancing works right We as a country cannot survive another lockdown, it's as simple as that. People need to take responsibility for thier own health, and not rely on a nanny state to look after our 'best' interests! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 Just now, AVB said: So what did you do when advised to self isolate earlier on this year? For the first month apart from mixing with family living with me I adhered to the guidance (they were also virtually shielding due to problems, immunosuppression in my wife's case and severe asthmas in my daughters, but not at such high risk) but it was aggravating sports related arthritic problems. Fortunately we had good food stocks and helpful neighbours. From then until August I left the house to walk the dog, being Rural I could do this without coming within 20m of people. By this time we had managed to get a delivery account for groceries. You try cutting yourself off from most others for 5 months. By September the guidance was relaxed but we still live a very isolated life and loneliness due to lack of social contact for 6 months is starting to be problematic for all of us. We went out for a lunch to celebrate my daughters birthday yesterday to a quiet village pub. The other diners were sticking to the guidance, unfortunately the young staff found it impossible to even wear their masks correctly when serving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: For the first month apart from mixing with family living with me I adhered to the guidance (they were also virtually shielding due to problems, immunosuppression in my wife's case and severe asthmas in my daughters, but not at such high risk) but it was aggravating sports related arthritic problems. Fortunately we had good food stocks and helpful neighbours. From then until August I left the house to walk the dog, being Rural I could do this without coming within 20m of people. By this time we had managed to get a delivery account for groceries. You try cutting yourself off from most others for 5 months. By September the guidance was relaxed but we still live a very isolated life and loneliness due to lack of social contact for 6 months is starting to be problematic for all of us. We went out for a lunch to celebrate my daughters birthday yesterday to a quiet village pub. The other diners were sticking to the guidance, unfortunately the young staff found it impossible to even wear their masks correctly when serving. Look I have some sympathy with your predicament but the reality is that Covid isn’t going away and will be with us for ever. It will peak and trough with the seasons and a vaccination will be only partially successful (as is the flu vaccine). So you will always be at risk. Shutting down the economy will just kill more people yet it won’t make Covid disappear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddoakley Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 35 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: Yes we ALL need to get on with living and this requires a little give and not take from the supposedly unaffected majority at lease attempting to "play by the rules". Absolutely agree, and the give and take would be that the vulnerable stay away from the things that scare them and the not so vulnerable allow them to do it and offer some assistance. For example if ypu are vulnerable then don't go to a pub or a supermarket- there should be help to get your food to you, everyone else shouldn't have to suffer. If you are vulnerable then don't go to work, there should be help for that but not everyone should be punished. If you are vulnerable then don't go abroad if it concerns you but don't expect everyone else to stop. (Although as this is reportedly a world wide pandemic I don't really see how travelling between affect countries causes a problem.) I have stopped discussing it most of the time as I think it's all crazy. So many things just don't make sense, like the ONS report showing that average age of deaths is 82.4 and all deaths being recorded as covid regardless of actual cause. It's just nuts. Anyway, I'm off for a socially distanced pint. Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, AVB said: Look I have some sympathy with your predicament but the reality is that Covid isn’t going away and will be with us for ever. It will peak and trough with the seasons and a vaccination will be only partially successful (as is the flu vaccine). So you will always be at risk. Shutting down the economy will just kill more people yet it won’t make Covid disappear. I agree, but how is asking people to abide by a bit of simple guidance "shutting down the economy"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, eddoakley said: Absolutely agree, and the give and take would be that the vulnerable stay away from the things that scare them and the not so vulnerable allow them to do it and offer some assistance. We do but they don't. For example if ypu are vulnerable then don't go to a pub or a supermarket- there should be help to get your food to you, everyone else shouldn't have to suffer. Even at the height of the pandemic getting a delivery slot was near impossible. If you are vulnerable then don't go to work, there should be help for that but not everyone should be punished. Furlough helped but my daughter needs to work and has returned you cannot live on £35 a week JSA. If you are vulnerable then don't go abroad if it concerns you but don't expect everyone else to stop. (Although as this is reportedly a world wide pandemic I don't really see how ravelling between affect countries causes a problem.) We don't I have stopped discussing it most of the time as I think it's all crazy. So many things just don't make sense, like the ONS report showing that average age of deaths is 82.4 and all deaths being recorded as covid regardless of actual cause. It's just nuts. Anyway, I'm off for a socially distanced pint. Provided it is "socially distanced" rock on. Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: I agree, but how is asking people to abide by a bit of simple guidance "shutting down the economy"? But they are not just asking for that. It appears they intend shutting down the country again this next week which is crazy and I understand a retrun of 97% of people do not want that to happen. OK the 3% may include people such as yourself and I do appreciate your suggestion and have friends who are in the same situation BUT right from the start of this fiasco we had people in our village who we had never met who called to ask if they could shop for us. It was a great response and for a couple of weeks until things settled we did have these 'friends' bring in stuff for us. Now we go and do our own shopping and just keep away from other people use our common sense. As said before we are both over 80yrs and in pretty good health for that age with my wife walking 4 miles most mornings for the newspaper. For you it is a trying time for sure and I appreciate that but to ask everyone else to be made what you call prisoners is unfair. PLUS, the country is going down the drain as a result. I'm willing to take my chances and use my common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddoakley Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, Walker570 said: For you it is a trying time for sure and I appreciate that but to ask everyone else to be made what you call prisoners is unfair. PLUS, the country is going down the drain as a result. I'm willing to take my chances and use my common sense. Good response. You are making your choices and not expecting the world to look after you at everyone else's expense. As has been mentioned above this corona virus is here to stay just like all the other corona viruses that we already deal with. How long is everyone expected to hide in their houses and wear masks and avoid everyone?!?! More people died from suicide last month than corona and that's before questioning the actual cause of those deaths. The figures are there but are spun to create fear. The economy is already screwed and it's difficult to know what's going to happen but surely the longer this goes on the worse it gets? Sorry to sound harsh but offer some help to the vulnerable and stop punishing the other 99%. Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treetree Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Yellow Bear said: So you from your high horse consider me dispensable so you can have a good time, and to tell me it is due to the economy, it is not Sorry to hear of your condition, but now imagine if it were you as a 30 year old, kids to feed, debt and mortgage to service, wife's job gone, and the business that you spent the past decade building up in ruin. Not my circumstances but those of friend. Still all seem worth it for a virus with an average of death of 82? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 2 hours ago, eddoakley said: Sorry to sound harsh but offer some help to the vulnerable and stop punishing the other 99%. Edd Can we drop this bull poop of 99% - the number set as vulnerable by HMG is 5% of the population making it 95% ,add to this those at high risk due to lung disease ( Asthma 12% diagnosed plus others), covid 19 being primarily a lung disease, amounting to 18% plus so even allowing for some overlap that makes 20%. On this count I make the number at best 80% being "punished". All that is needed is for those left to practice some degree of distancing and I believe more than half do. I think we would not need any further restrictions if this had been done by the selfish (students in particular) over the last 3 weeks. Even the BBC published the high rises amongst Students and this has been seen to "ripple out" in northern university areas. The case rate has quadrupled in my area since Sheffield students "Freshers week", and they are 12 miles away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddoakley Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Yellow Bear said: Edd Can we drop this bull poop of 99% - the number set as vulnerable by HMG is 5% of the population making it 95% ,add to this those at high risk due to lung disease ( Asthma 12% diagnosed plus others), covid 19 being primarily a lung disease, amounting to 18% plus so even allowing for some overlap that makes 20%. On this count I make the number at best 80% being "punished". All that is needed is for those left to practice some degree of distancing and I believe more than half do. I think we would not need any further restrictions if this had been done by the selfish (students in particular) over the last 3 weeks. Even the BBC published the high rises amongst Students and this has been seen to "ripple out" in northern university areas. The case rate has quadrupled in my area since Sheffield students "Freshers week", and they are 12 miles away. Ok so 95% instead of 99% 99% of that 95% would be at risk from pretty much anything (common cold, flu, minor accidents could kill them, visit to hospital could mean catching a range of other bugs besides covid.....list goes on) Kind of irrelevant really, my point is that the vast majority are being told what they can and can't do, who they can see, what they must wear (masks), where they can go and generally being controlled in more ways than ever and in ways that would never have been accepted under most circumstances. This to protect the vulnerable who are also vulnerable to a myriad of other things. Are you and your family vulnerable to influenza? Could that cause serious medical issues for you? I'm guessing yes. Would the whole country be expected to "lock down" for you for that? We obviously have very different views on the situation and I'm happy to discuss but won't argue or try to change your mind. But you won't change mine either. Who cares if 1000000 students have corona? Most of them don't even know as they have no symptoms. Most of the people that they pass it too would never know. So who's affected? If you don't want to mix with them then don't, that's your choice but I don't think it should be forced on to others. As for "even the BBC " then if you live your life by the BBC then you would be very blinkered. Look at published and available figures, not just the numbers but the actual wordings and then look at the way the whole thing is portrayed. What about the ONS stats that average age of death "with covid19" (not even they say "from"!) is 82.4? Does that not say somethjng about how deadly it is or isn't? Surely the majority of those deaths would have happened anyway? "Even the bbc" have quoted the suicide to covid figures but you have not mentioned those. You say everyone should follow rules to protect you but what about people vulnerable for other reasons. As I say, we have different views and the basics of that won't change. Edd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 We had our first survey visit yesterday . I got the overwhelming impression that it's a complete shambles . I would like to think that it will get better , given a bit of time to get things better organised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 I’m going to make a wild prediction, given unlimited time and resources the survey is still going to be a shambles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, WalkedUp said: I’m going to make a wild prediction, given unlimited time and resources the survey is still going to be a shambles. I fear that your prediction will be bang on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 16 hours ago, eddoakley said: Ok so 95% instead of 99% 99% of that 95% would be at risk from pretty much anything (common cold, flu, minor accidents could kill them, visit to hospital could mean catching a range of other bugs besides covid.....list goes on) Kind of irrelevant really, my point is that the vast majority are being told what they can and can't do, who they can see, what they must wear (masks), where they can go and generally being controlled in more ways than ever and in ways that would never have been accepted under most circumstances. This to protect the vulnerable who are also vulnerable to a myriad of other things. Are you and your family vulnerable to influenza? Could that cause serious medical issues for you? I'm guessing yes. Would the whole country be expected to "lock down" for you for that? We obviously have very different views on the situation and I'm happy to discuss but won't argue or try to change your mind. But you won't change mine either. Who cares if 1000000 students have corona? Most of them don't even know as they have no symptoms. Most of the people that they pass it too would never know. So who's affected? If you don't want to mix with them then don't, that's your choice but I don't think it should be forced on to others. As for "even the BBC " then if you live your life by the BBC then you would be very blinkered. Look at published and available figures, not just the numbers but the actual wordings and then look at the way the whole thing is portrayed. What about the ONS stats that average age of death "with covid19" (not even they say "from"!) is 82.4? Does that not say somethjng about how deadly it is or isn't? Surely the majority of those deaths would have happened anyway? "Even the bbc" have quoted the suicide to covid figures but you have not mentioned those. You say everyone should follow rules to protect you but what about people vulnerable for other reasons. As I say, we have different views and the basics of that won't change. Edd Brilliant reply. I understand that the State Governor of Florida had removed all restrictions a month ago and surprise surprise there has been no sudden peak infection and believ me I have been to Florida and not just the holiday scene and it is a VERY mixed community. I saw a lady in our local shop this week, face nappy and a plastic shield, great, I assume she had some underlying health problem but then why should I a healthy 80year old have to wear the same gear. I naturally kept my distance, wished the lady a good day by touching my cap .... I'm old fashioned but in the main such is appreciated by all but the WOKE brigade and they can go...do what they want to. ALL of the letters in the papers today are asking Boris to grasp the nettle and open the country up and ask those who have a problem to take the relevant measures to protect themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Walker570 said: ALL of the letters in the papers today are asking Boris to grasp the nettle and open the country up and ask those who have a problem to take the relevant measures to protect themselves. All seems sensible, if you want to get on with your life, crack on, if you want to isolate etc., crack on. There is no one solution fits all with a virus that is here to stay. If they want the virus gone, then we need a proper lockdown, no leaving your house for anything, we all get stocked up with enough supplies to outlive the virus and lock ourselves away for the required time, with nothing in or out the country. But once it is gone, the country need to remain a no entry zone, which makes it unfeasible, unless the whole World does the same lockdown at the same time, then the World can open back up! But this is not going to happen, so let's all just get on with living. Edited October 11, 2020 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 21 hours ago, Yellow Bear said: At 71 with serious asthma aggravated by work related exposure to Aspergillis (exposure considered due to keeping hospital theatres operational) so not "very old". HMG considers me at high risk. So you from your high horse consider me dispensable so you can have a good time, and to tell me it is due to the economy, it is not. Have you actually read these guidance conditions for the at risk group? I think not, as to totally follow them is virtual house arrest which could be 20 years they are far harder than the restrictions on the general populace. I cannot see the overwhelming majority (if their mindset is like yours giving) a fig about this. This group amounts to about 5% of the population the majority of which are under 75. If I was to say what has been said in this thread about any other minority groups of this size there would be howls of discrimination and ***ist hate speech. Yes we ALL need to get on with living and this requires a little give and not take from the supposedly unaffected majority at lease attempting to "play by the rules". You state you are “ not very old “ at 71 the life expectancy of a man in the UK is 81 how long do you guys expect to live for ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 27 minutes ago, blackbird said: You state you are “ not very old “ at 71 the life expectancy of a man in the UK is 81 how long do you guys expect to live for ? Personally I would consider very old to be over the average life expectancy so I would expect to reach the average in a fairly active condition. However old is subjective:- When you are a child old is 20 and very old above 30 When you are a teenager old is 30 and very old above 40 When you are just an adult old is 30 and very old above 40 When you have a child old is 40 and very old above 60 When you got rid of your children old is 65 and very old above 80 When have retired old is 70 and very old above 80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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