Anyone else prefer semi-autos above over and unders?

[Gerry78]

12 hours ago, London Best said:

An excellent choice, sir.

Thanks LB I’m hoping to buy one new year 👍👍

[figgy]

To any that want a semi that puts cartridges out the bottom the Beretta UGB Excel does this. It's a odd looking semi as it's a two shot break barrel semi auto.

Another is a browning BPS pump that's bottom ejecting 

Due to shoulder, back and neck damage and getting older ive been shooting a semi auto for a few years now. 

I would love to use one for all my shooting including driven game. The continent and USA have it right, use them if it's your preference. 

It would give me the excuse to buy a nice Benelli 50th anniversary model or similar as a game gun.

I find a semi auto can do everything I need from a shotgun.

[London Best]

I understand what you are saying, figgy, but fortunately we have traditions here that the continent and the USA do not have. That is what makes us and our shooting stand out from them. I like that.

[figgy]

London Best, I agree to a point but what spoils the argument is over and unders.

If game shoiting is so traditional it should be sxs only.  Over and unders were once frowned upon and some shoots still do. 

I've noticed the average age of the shooters on game shoots is getting older.

Some young ones enjoy at daddy's expense but shy away when it's time to pay for it themselves. 

I think like everything it's got to move on, be it slowly but times change.

The change to non toxic will be a big change in game shooting, especially high bird shoots.

Edited November 25, 2020 by figgy

[London Best]

I have never come across a shoot which frowns on O/U’s figgy.  
Only by me and one or two of my friends.  
As you said, if game shooting is so traditional it should be all SxS. You wouldn’t (regularly) stalk rabbits with a target rifle, you would take a sporting rifle. So you shouldn’t (regularly) shoot game with a target shooting gun.

Just me windin’ ‘em up!

[figgy]

Ha ha,  look at the long heavy trap guns used for high bird driven.

I think it's time the nice wood and engraved semi autos were allowed or not frowned upon in game shooting. The likes of this beauty would look nice with tweeds 😁

[London Best]

1 hour ago, figgy said:

Ha ha,  look at the long heavy trap guns used for high bird driven.

I think it's time the nice wood and engraved semi autos were allowed or not frowned upon in game shooting. The likes of this beauty would look nice with tweeds 😁

Sorry mate, through my eyes that is truly ******* hideous.

[Stonepark]

No

3 hours ago, London Best said:

I understand what you are saying, figgy, but fortunately we have traditions here that the continent and the USA do not have. That is what makes us and our shooting stand out from them. I like that.

Funny, the traditional gun was a single barrel muzzle loader flint lock and then Manton invented the SxS, caplock, internal hammers all came along and were rapidly adopted by shooters at the time.

 

What seems to then gave happened is that the toffs (and certain others) then froze on the pinnacles of SxS manufacturer (i.e. a hand made Purdey or Boss) as best, whilst others kept developing and producing better guns (and often less expensive) and which were available to all in the form of the semi and OU.

 

This is still going on and companies such as Longthorne (with their CNC OU one piece barrels) or Benelli with their semi equivalent  barrels design etc are still moving forward in design an application.

 

It is not wrong to shoot a SxS, the same as it is not wrong to drive a Roll Royce Silver Ghost, however expecting others to use one or a cheap contemory copy of one when there are modern alternatives on the market such as a Semi (or in car terms a Tesla) which most formal shoots do by disapproving of Semi's is not doing shooting as a whole any favours longterm.

 

 

[Scully]

18 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

A game keeper at a trial insisted that us guns carried the guns closed, up and on safe as he has seen too many dogs shot whilst closing the barrels. Was an interesting experience for me. Shot the first two partridge whilst concentrating. Missed the third chance due to relaxing and forgetting the safety. Then wiped another gun’s eye for the 4th chance. Then had an easy one, and a very fast bird that sprung whilst reloading as the dog when to get the bird’s fallen mate, but I realised that was probably in contravention of our instruction as the gun was “closed” during the heat of the moment. 

I can see both points and now do both systems depending upon terrain, footing and proximity (dogs and people). 

Firstly, If a gun discharges on closing then the gun is faulty.

Secondly, speaking as a game shooter who shoots clays, if the former had a safety record anywhere near that of the latter then no dogs would be getting shot. 

Thirdly, anyone and everyone can slam shut a gun, especially on a hot peg on a driven day; I’ve seen it countless times. 

And lastly, use your safety by all means, but if you consider yourself to be safe because of it, then you’re a liability. 

 

[London Best]

The SxS hammerless ejector was the gun developed for driven game shooting, not the single muzzle loader.
There is nothing modern about semi autos. They were developed for the American market gunner. Nothing sporting about the idea as it was conceived.  I do not dislike s/a for some purposes. I do dislike O/U.
Each to their own. 

30 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

No

Funny, the traditional gun was a single barrel muzzle loader flint lock and then Manton invented the SxS, caplock, internal hammers all came along and were rapidly adopted by shooters at the time.

 

What seems to then gave happened is that the toffs (and certain others) then froze on the pinnacles of SxS manufacturer (i.e. a hand made Purdey or Boss) as best, whilst others kept developing and producing better guns (and often less expensive) and which were available to all in the form of the semi and OU.

 

This is still going on and companies such as Longthorne (with their CNC OU one piece barrels) or Benelli with their semi equivalent  barrels design etc are still moving forward in design an application.

 

It is not wrong to shoot a SxS, the same as it is not wrong to drive a Roll Royce Silver Ghost, however expecting others to use one or a cheap contemory copy of one when there are modern alternatives on the market such as a Semi (or in car terms a Tesla) which most formal shoots do by disapproving of Semi's is not doing shooting as a whole any favours longterm.

 

 

 

[London Best]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Firstly, If a gun discharges on closing then the gun is faulty.

Secondly, speaking as a game shooter who shoots clays, if the former had a safety record anywhere near that of the latter then no dogs would be getting shot. 

Thirdly, anyone and everyone can slam shut a gun, especially on a hot peg on a driven day; I’ve seen it countless times. 

And lastly, use your safety by all means, but if you consider yourself to be safe because of it, then you’re a liability. 

 

Don’t wish to argue, but:

There are many faulty guns in use. 

I see many who have “learnt to shoot” at the clay ground who are a liability when they migrate into game shooting.

Everyone can slam a gun in a hurry but when it happens, although no guarantee of safety, surely it is better if the safety has been applied automatically when the gun was opened before loading. And, if you are doing it properly, you should also apply your non auto safety catch before opening and loading. 
 

Anyone who considers themselves safe because they always use the safety catch is a fool. It is just an extra help towards safety, so why not use it? And don’t forget that many also have intercepting spears.Muzzle awareness at ALL times is the key.

[Gerry78]

3 hours ago, figgy said:

London Best, I agree to a point but what spoils the argument is over and unders.

If game shoiting is so traditional it should be sxs only.  Over and unders were once frowned upon and some shoots still do. 

I've noticed the average age of the shooters on game shoots is getting older.

Some young ones enjoy at daddy's expense but shy away when it's time to pay for it themselves. 

I think like everything it's got to move on, be it slowly but times change.

The change to non toxic will be a big change in game shooting, especially high bird shoots.

Agree to extend figgy but you have to remember that o/u never really took off over here in uk till the Americans started flooding the market with them regarding clay shooting Most shooters think There easier to shoot on game shoots And as a result a lot of new shooters are advised to buy a O/U starting out I for one went against the grain and bought a S/S But it’s only my opinion I do enjoy out shooting guys I hunt with with my aya no3 magnum now and again at the clays with them using O/U s

[figgy]

I think I comes down to who taught you and what type of shooting you did first as you learned.

If you were taught by grandad rough shooting your more likely to learn on and use a sxs. If it was your dad taking you pigeon shooting could be any and all.

If Wildfowling a semi auto is quite likely, clay shooting over and under will be the usual gun out in your hands at the start.

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, figgy said:

I think I comes down to who taught you and what type of shooting you did first as you learned.

If you were taught by grandad rough shooting your more likely to learn on and use a sxs. If it was your dad taking you pigeon shooting could be any and all.

If Wildfowling a semi auto is quite likely, clay shooting over and under will be the usual gun out in your hands at the start.

I am sure you are right figgy. 
But these days many are not taught at all by anybody, they just fancy having a go and take it up. 
Some will have a lesson or two at the local clay ground, but generally the beginner’s lessons do not teach them to shoot but merely to break a clay.

[Shadowchaser]

4 hours ago, figgy said:

Ha ha,  look at the long heavy trap guns used for high bird driven.

I think it's time the nice wood and engraved semi autos were allowed or not frowned upon in game shooting. The likes of this beauty would look nice with tweeds 😁

A very nice gun.

I do think that semis should be allowed (or not frowned upon) at driven shooting. If you only load two shells you are at no advantage over someone with a 2 barrel gun.  In fact you might say that the double barrelled gun with two different chokes has an advantage over a semi with the one choke. 

Each to their own of course, but I think times will change. 

[figgy]

What about double and triple gunning, not much different.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

Don’t wish to argue, but:

There are many faulty guns in use. 

I see many who have “learnt to shoot” at the clay ground who are a liability when they migrate into game shooting.

Everyone can slam a gun in a hurry but when it happens, although no guarantee of safety, surely it is better if the safety has been applied automatically when the gun was opened before loading. And, if you are doing it properly, you should also apply your non auto safety catch before opening and loading. 
 

Anyone who considers themselves safe because they always use the safety catch is a fool. It is just an extra help towards safety, so why not use it? And don’t forget that many also have intercepting spears.Muzzle awareness at ALL times is the key.

You make some withering remarks for someone who doesn’t wish to argue. 
I repeat, if a gun discharges on closing then it is faulty ( this can happen to any shot, whether clay or game, although the former won’t have his pointed at a dog when it happens )  and possibly a stuck and protruding striker, which wouldn’t make any difference whether the safety was on or not.
Some safeties provide a mechanical block to prevent the trigger from being pulled, but not the strikers from striking. If you want to walk up birds with your gun closed and safety on then that’s fine, but don’t ever think it won’t go off if you stumble and it comes into hard contact with something. 
If you’re doing it correctly, there is no need for a safety on a shotgun ( or any gun for that matter ) at all. 
We’re all potential liabilities when we’re learning, but while none seem willing to teach, many are willing to criticise. 
Clay shooters on a game shoot are no more a liability in my experience than game shots on a clay ground, albeit with the exception the clay shot will probably know how to remove a gun from its slip without giving everyone a good look at their muzzles while they sweep them through everyone in proximity. And just for good measure the game shot will more than likely do it again when they return it, for the benefit of those who missed it the first time. 🙂
You are letting your dislike of OU’s and those who use them, make you appear snobbish. 

 

[London Best]

3 minutes ago, Scully said:
You are letting your dislike of OU’s and those who use them, make you appear snobbish. 

 

Far from snobbish, Scully, very down to Earth. And I have no desire to argue or fall out with you or anybody else.

I make no secret of my dislike of O/U guns. I can see nothing good about them. Just my opinion.

I follow your posts with interest and find that you make some of the  most sensible posts on the forum. You are obviously a very experienced shooting man. That said, I find it hard to understand your attitude, almost bravado,  of ‘I never use a safety catch on any gun.’ I have no idea from where or why you developed that idea, or indeed if that is what you were taught, and by whom. But, from wherever it came, it is so obviously wrong.

[WalkedUp]

I’ve seen gun discharge upon closing because the idiot had his hand on the trigger. You can’t really fix stupid, except perhaps an auto safety may of saved him? I don’t intend to test it out. This was a wealthy solicitor who had taken up shooting. It almost took his leg off. 

I don’t think any one system is right for every occasion. 

I use manual safety. For me it is muzzle awareness as the fundamental. Then having a broken gun if I am close enough to speak to someone etc. If walking over good ground I will have fun closed and up, safety on. If walking over poor ground I will have safety off and barrels open. When climbing fences or talking to someone it is cartridges out. Hence why a semi would be a PITA on walked up with company and fences. 

[Westley]

On 23/11/2020 at 18:28, Shadowchaser said:

Some great replies to this thread, thanks. 

It would appear that there is a lot of semi auto love out there. 

Sometimes when shooting at a clay ground the empty shell will bounce off the wall/cage side and hit me on the head.  Certainly makes it more interesting! 

As you become more proficient in shooting with an auto, you will learn to head those empty cases into the bin  !

[Westley]

I think to say that there is nothing good about O/U's is rather a sweeping statement.  I am shooting my first game day of the season next week, I will be using my S x S. The weekend will see me shooting at the local clay ground, using either my O/U or semi auto. Unless I have a S x S 'live pigeon' gun, or possibly a Winchester 23, then the average game gun S x S is ill suited for clay shooting. As I have not had my S x S out of the cabinet for some 2 years, but have shot a few thousand clays since then, using my O/U, common sense tells me to take the O/U but lugging an almost 9lbs gun around a game shoot does not appeal.  Unless someone comes up with a suitable alternative cartridge, safe to use in a lightweight 2 1/2"  chambered S x S game gun, we could all be using an O/U in the not too distant future. We have a generation of shooters who have probably not even used a S x S gun and look upon them as a source of amusement. Their guns are capable of shooting any cartridges, without modification, which is why they believe that lead is so harmful to us all and should be abolished forthwith. No, The O/U is here to stay and as I keep getting told about the lead debacle, "Live with it"   !

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, London Best said:

Far from snobbish, Scully, very down to Earth. And I have no desire to argue or fall out with you or anybody else.

I make no secret of my dislike of O/U guns. I can see nothing good about them. Just my opinion.

I follow your posts with interest and find that you make some of the  most sensible posts on the forum. You are obviously a very experienced shooting man. That said, I find it hard to understand your attitude, almost bravado,  of ‘I never use a safety catch on any gun.’ I have no idea from where or why you developed that idea, or indeed if that is what you were taught, and by whom. But, from wherever it came, it is so obviously wrong.

I too, enjoy your posts, and if you are a snob then it is simply the gun type of snob, and that’s not too bad a thing really, it just means you have a genuine love of guns, which is a good trait. 🙂

It isn’t bravado, I assure you; to me it’s simply logical.
Ive been shooting since I was at school, either mooching through hedges or on military ranges. 
I seriously cannot think of any reason why a gun would have a safety, in essence it’s purpose, I genuinely can’t. 
The only gun I have ever used a safety on was when I used to shoot skittles or falling plate with my Colt .45 ACP, when criteria deemed we started with our SA pistols holstered and ‘cocked and locked’. Revolvers don’t have them; if it’s such a necessity then why? 
I have never used one on my CF rifle nor my RF; just when would I need to? Unless I’m about to take a shot the chamber is empty. If I don’t take the shot the chamber is emptied. 
The same applies to my shotguns. 
If I’m stood on a peg my shotgun is either broken or resting on my hip, closed, pointing in the air with no fingers anywhere near the trigger. When the drive ends I’ll just unload the gun and put it in it’s slip. 
If I’m shooting clays my gun is unloaded ( in the case of a SA or pump ) or broken and unloaded, until I am in the cage and ready to shoot. 
If I’m in a hide my SA is loaded and pointing at the sky, my OU is loaded but broken until I need to close it if I’m sharing the hide.
If I’m walking up game my OU is broken until I need it, my SA pointed at the sky, safety off; again, no fingers anywhere near a trigger. I always carry a pump with a full mag’ but chamber empty. I can actually carry my SA in such a way, but its not as fast as a pump to chamber a cartridge. All and any gun is emptied prior to clearing an obstacle. 
If I fall and drop either, a safety won’t stop that gun going off.
I cannot think of one aspect of shooting where a safety would prevent me from shooting anyone or their dog accidentally. 
As you’ve mentioned in a previous post, as have I, finger off the trigger and muzzle awareness does it all. 

It isn’t bravado, it seriously isn’t, and I’m not being deliberately belligerent or difficult, they just don’t serve any purpose that I can see is of benefit. 
 

[London Best]

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply, Scully. 
I have no idea of your age (and don’t want to know) but I would bet that you did not learn to shoot a shotgun using a SxS with an auto-safe? 
The other point  which arouses my curiosity is the CF rifle. Am I right in thinking that you do not stalk deer in a woodland setting?

[BlaserF3]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Far from snobbish, Scully, very down to Earth. And I have no desire to argue or fall out with you or anybody else.

I make no secret of my dislike of O/U guns. I can see nothing good about them. Just my opinion.

I follow your posts with interest and find that you make some of the  most sensible posts on the forum. You are obviously a very experienced shooting man. That said, I find it hard to understand your attitude, almost bravado,  of ‘I never use a safety catch on any gun.’ I have no idea from where or why you developed that idea, or indeed if that is what you were taught, and by whom. But, from wherever it came, it is so obviously wrong.

Hey up, I don't use the safety catch on guns, I cannot see the point of them 🤔

And my backup gun is a 21 year old Beretta 391.

Edited November 25, 2020 by BlaserF3
addition

[London Best]

This must be a Cumbria thing!