Reloading 410 brass

[Fenlandbob]

Morning, all. 

Any information on reloading 410 brass cases would be much appreciated. Or to be more accurate, 303 brass fireformed to 410 musket. I have just purchased a Lee Enfield 410 musket and want to keep it original. Any info on primers, wadding etc would be useful. Many thanks. Happy new year to all. 

Regards, Rob. 

[Vince Green]

You may have a problem getting primers if its held on SGC

[enfieldspares]

The .410 Musket cartridge is fairly well shown on the internet. I don't see any problem with buying primers with an SGC. There are a large number of shotguns using cartridges that need a large rifle primer.

I think that the original loading used may be lettered shot and for that you need to be very much aware of the legal, UK, unless your ammunition is

(a)cartridges containing five or more shot, none of which exceeds ·36 inch in diameter;

(b)ammunition for an air gun, air rifle or air pistol; and

(c)blank cartridges not more than one inch in diameter measured immediately in front of the rim or cannelure of the base of the cartridge.

Then it is classed as s1 ammunition. So do make sure that your finished cartridges have five (or more) pellets and that none of those pellets isn't a greater diameter than .36". So as I think you know, or should know, whereas the .410" Lee Enfield musket if restricted magazine is still s2 any .410" round ball loading would be illegal for you to make to possess by you on the basis of that s2 SGC as it...that ammunition...would be classed as s1.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Walker570]

Can you not use 444 Marlin cases ?

I know we used to reload 410 brass cases and just put a card on top of the shot and melt a bit of candle wax around it to keep it in place.

Killed a lot of rabbits out of my P H converted 410 bolt gun back in the 50s doing that.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Walker570

[Fenlandbob]

Cheers for this, enfieldspares. 

Very interesting. My local RFD hinted at much the same. He is currently looking into the legality of the primers on a shotgun certificate. Obviously the Enfield in question is legal, and all I want to do is to be able to reload brass as per typical shotgun shells. Like I say, I want to keep the gun as per the original conversion, and brass shells just seems right in the ol girl. 

Regards, Rob. 

[rbrowning2]

The violent crime reduction bill made it law that to purchase metallic cartridge type primers from an RFD ie large rifle primers you need to have an FAC with a rifle on it that requires the large rifle primers. My friend used to load the .410 brass cases and decided to give up doing so.  
Guess you could get somebody with such an FAC to buy them for you, as the law does not apply between private individuals.

May be an inconvenience, but with the police trying at this time to tighten controls on reloading components, let’s not give them any cause to do so.

 

[Fenlandbob]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Can you not use 444 Marlin cases ?

I know we used to reload 410 brass cases and just put a card on top of the shot and melt a bit of candle wax around it to keep it in place.

Killed a lot of rabbits out of my P H converted 410 bolt gun back in the 50s doing that.

Afternoon, Walker570. 

In typical fashion, I seem to need to things the hard way. From what I believe, marlin 444 shells are parallel sided, whereas the 410 musket is an un-necked 303, which has a slightly tapered profile? 

Regards, Rob. 

52 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The violent crime reduction bill made it law that to purchase metallic cartridge type primers from an RFD ie large rifle primers you need to have an FAC with a rifle on it that requires the large rifle primers. My friend used to load the .410 brass cases and decided to give up doing so.  
Guess you could get somebody with such an FAC to buy them for you, as the law does not apply between private individuals.

May be an inconvenience, but with the police trying at this time to tighten controls on reloading components, let’s not give them any cause to do so.

 

Hello, mate. 

I intend to reload the 303 brass, but only if I can do so within the confines of legality. I may yet have to machine the shells to accept a shotgun primer, but if I could purchase the correct primer, my life would be slightly easier. 

Regards, Rob. 

[enfieldspares]

I'd advise the OP to seek guidance from his shooting association of which he is a member as, on a reading of it, the Home Office Guidance 2106 excludes the possessor of a Shot Gun Certificate from purchasing primers for metallic cartridges. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Windswept]

There's loads of information out there about reloading .410 brass cases, but I've yet to find a simple step-by-step guide or some decent instructions.

Anyway, I've been using CBC/Magtech cases to varying success. It does require larger wads than plastic cases and the reformed 303s may also require larger wads (Hopefully someone can confirm?).

I got mine from clay and game in the end, 430 over powder (nitro) cards, 430 wads and 450 over shot cards.

https://www.claygame.co.uk/card-wads-nitro-cards-and-over-shot-cards-p83

https://www.claygame.co.uk/dry-12-fibre-cushion-wad-pd191

Cheaper to punch your own and I've been experimenting with punches and old cartridge cases converted to punches.

Do you know what powder you are going to use?

[Fenlandbob]

Evening, windswept. 

I have spoken to clay and game, and they recommend the wads /cards that you have mentioned. As for powder, I'm more than open to suggestions. I already have some Alliant 410, so will start there, but am interested in your findings. What do you use for primers? Am starting to fear the worse for trying to purchase large rifle primers. I only possess a SGC. 

Regards, Rob. 

[Fenlandbob]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I'd advise the OP to seek guidance from his shooting association of which he is a member as, on a reading of it, the Home Office Guidance 2106 excludes the possessor of a Shot Gun Certificate from purchasing primers for metallic cartridges. 

Evening, mate. 

I will soon find out. I have been told different things about this. I am prepared for the worst, though. Seems a funny state of affairs. I genuinely want to reload for shotgun use. We shall see. 

Regards, Rob. 

[Windswept]

I don't have a problem with primers as I have a FAC as well. I'm trying to get Alliant .410 to work but struggling a little with getting the powder to ignite every time and burn cleanly. I think the magtech brass could do with a 435 over powder card or something. It works fine if I crimp the brass or if I use a .45 cal black powder wad. I also had no problem with pyrodex but I'd rather not have to clean the gun so often.

I note you mention large rifle primers, I use large pistol primers and a bit of a search shows most people use the pistol primers. Tempted to see what a rifle primer would do but I assume it would increase the pressure.

[Fenlandbob]

Now you mention it, the .45 black powder wad did get a mention from clay and game. That makes sense. Should keep enough pressure to allow full burn, and the overshot card just keeps it from falling apart in your pocket. As for the primers, the large rifle what I have so far been advised. But not the magnum primers. Admittedly early days for me. I'm no expert and would seek advice before doing anything I was unsure of.

Regards, Rob. 

[enfieldspares]

Somewhere there will be the correct British/Indian military spec for these cartridges. .303 like most "Brit" bottleneck cordite cases was loaded as a cylinder, I believe, then "coned" down to form the neck. Or in terms I'd understand imagine taking a straight wall .444 Marlin case. Then running it through a .303 sizing die so that the neck first curves inwards as the shoulder forms and as it goes further up into the die the brass is squeezed down to the size of the neck.

FWIW you can use .30-06 brass like that in a 7.92 Mauser FL die to make 7.92mm blanks. Then just star crimp the the case mouth closed. But that's by the by. Back to the task in hand. So your .410 Musket is .303 (in essence) that wasn't "coned". There's the problem it is easier to cone down a neck than expand a neck out to a diameter much larger. It can be done. Again see the internet. But it's might tedious slow!

Others may say why not fireform the cartridge. But then that requires you to have primers. So it goes around...

Anyhow here's some stuff and the powder recipe charge too. I'll leave the eye strain of reading the diagram to you. The eighteen shot are approx 9 grains each (750 to 800 to the pound = 46 to 50 to the ounce so that's maybe the old A or also called BBBB. 

https://sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/-410-musket

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by enfieldspares

[Fenlandbob]

Cheers, enfieldspares. 

The more I can find to read about these, the better. I like the history of the things. I'm determined to fire it, but really don't want to have the chamber reamed for conventional ammo. 

I fancy trying fireforming 303 brass, but like you say, back to the primers issue......, 

Cheers, Rob. 

[6.5x55SE]

27 minutes ago, Fenlandbob said:

Cheers, enfieldspares. 

The more I can find to read about these, the better. I like the history of the things. I'm determined to fire it, but really don't want to have the chamber reamed for conventional ammo. 

I fancy trying fireforming 303 brass, but like you say, back to the primers issue......, 

Cheers, Rob. 

Evening Rob as i understand it regards the primers you don't need a FAC to hold only to purchase. Whereabouts are you in Fenland ( pm if you prefer ) as i can sort you some Large Rifle Primers if we are close to each other

[figgy]

Why not just modify the primer pockets to take shotgun primers. If the hole as is to large, have the hole brazed up and then drill and ream to suit. 

This way you can enjoy the .303 cases, as for cards on top, get hold of or make some water glass, silicone sealant in a fine bead at a push.

Edited January 11, 2021 by figgy

[theshootist]

This is a really interesting thread. Some time ago I tried magtech cases, large rifle primers and lilgun for propellant. I couldn't get enough compression to hold the charge in the case for a proper burn. Sometimes the primer would blow the charge including mostly unburned powder out. I shall try and get some .45 black powder wads then. 

 

[enfieldspares]

In the original spec the cartridge has a roll crimp. I think that one of the problems is that, quite understandably, today's shooter wants to re-use and reload their expensive brass case. Therefore they are averse to a roll crimp. That may be the problem. There has to be, must be, some resistance to the initial "start" to the ignition of the powder to allow it to build up pressure. If there isn't it won't burn. 

[rbrowning2]

59 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

In the original spec the cartridge has a roll crimp. I think that one of the problems is that, quite understandably, today's shooter wants to re-use and reload their expensive brass case. Therefore they are averse to a roll crimp. That may be the problem. There has to be, must be, some resistance to the initial "start" to the ignition of the powder to allow it to build up pressure. If there isn't it won't burn. 

Or it burns very poorly and dirty.

put a little lose nitro powder outside and set fire to it and watch how it burns completely different to that of black powder.

 

[Fenlandbob]

8 hours ago, theshootist said:

This is a really interesting thread. Some time ago I tried magtech cases, large rifle primers and lilgun for propellant. I couldn't get enough compression to hold the charge in the case for a proper burn. Sometimes the primer would blow the charge including mostly unburned powder out. I shall try and get some .45 black powder wads then. 

 

Afternoon, mate. 

Yeah, the black powder wads seems to be the way to go. Out of interest, what were you firing the brass cases out of? Only ask because I'm looking into it for a specific gun. Hadn't considered brass for everyday use, but I suppose the cases would last a lifetime? 

Regards, Rob. 

[Windswept]

Well I'm using a little Webley & Scott bolt action .410 for my experiments but intend to use the cartridges in any .410 if I can get something that works reliably.

As theshootist says, I've also had just the primer only go off and all contents of the cartridge just empty out the end of the gun.

I did find a fairly light crimp worked, so I'll try and couple of cartridges and reload them a few times to see how long they last. I was mainly aiming for a non-toxic load so don't plan on shooting that many, can't afford to.

[Vince Green]

The other thing you should be aware of is that the wall thickness of .303 cases can vary tremendously between different makes. Specially at the base

[theshootist]

On 11/01/2021 at 17:41, Fenlandbob said:

Afternoon, mate. 

Yeah, the black powder wads seems to be the way to go. Out of interest, what were you firing the brass cases out of? Only ask because I'm looking into it for a specific gun. Hadn't considered brass for everyday use, but I suppose the cases would last a lifetime? 

Regards, Rob. 

Hello Rob, I have a mossberg hushpower pump and a winchester 9410 lever action. I got them for the winchester for a bit of fun really. 

[Fenlandbob]

Afternoon, all. Was hoping to be getting to grips with the fireforming by now. However, I had a call from my RFD. The Enfield is at the shop, but I can't legally collect it until after lockdown. That's kinda put a spanner in the works.........,

Regards, Rob.