value of life

[clangerman]

if nhs treatment was means tested those with more money than conscience would not be taking advantage of the system 

[WalkedUp]

There has to be a system to make decisions. What drugs are approved for purchase by NHS, who gets them etc. 

Whilst on personal responsibility, should women who delay primigravida past 30 be denied universal maternity care?  

[Houseplant]

13 hours ago, henry d said:

Wasn't there a bit of a hooha recently with a lot of people shouting that all lives matter, not just black?

Who is anyone to say whether one human lives and one dies? We should not be having this conversation if people thought as much about others as themselves especially during this pandemic, no masks, lack of distancing, no sanitising hands before entering shops, not getting the jab, having a few friends around...

 

OK, so let's take a very simple, but real world scenario. You have 10 patients with COVID who need ventilatory support. You have 8 ICU beds. 2 of the patients are likely not to survive with or without artificial ventilation due to pre-existing comorbidities, but it may prolong their lives for a few days. Who do you give the ICU beds to? It's not a trick question and the answer  is obvious to most people. You could argue that there should be 10 ICU beds, but that is not the reality of the situation at hand and when extrapolated to a national level, it would equate to thousands of beds. Even if they were funded, there wouldn't be enough qualified staff to look after them. Again, you could argue that more staff need to be trained (or imported), but that takes years. Then consider that this is a dynamic situation, bed and staff requirements change significantly over time in the era of pandemics. Even with the best will in the world and appropriate funding, there will be some rationing of services and judgement about individual patients will have to be made. 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

We could have that system, oh hey we do it's called going private but you already knew that

I never knew you could stop paying part of your taxes towards the NHS , and put it towards private healthcare? 

Oh wait , you cant ..but you already knew that. 

[Mungler]

5 hours ago, Houseplant said:

 

OK, so let's take a very simple, but real world scenario. You have 10 patients with COVID who need ventilatory support. You have 8 ICU beds. 2 of the patients are likely not to survive with or without artificial ventilation due to pre-existing comorbidities, but it may prolong their lives for a few days. Who do you give the ICU beds to? It's not a trick question and the answer  is obvious to most people. You could argue that there should be 10 ICU beds, but that is not the reality of the situation at hand and when extrapolated to a national level, it would equate to thousands of beds. Even if they were funded, there wouldn't be enough qualified staff to look after them. Again, you could argue that more staff need to be trained (or imported), but that takes years. Then consider that this is a dynamic situation, bed and staff requirements change significantly over time in the era of pandemics. Even with the best will in the world and appropriate funding, there will be some rationing of services and judgement about individual patients will have to be made. 

Battlefield triage pure and simple 

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I never knew you could stop paying part of your taxes towards the NHS , and put it towards private healthcare? 

Oh wait , you cant ..but you already knew that. 

I was going to post those very words but gave up and thought what’s the point?

Every conversation ever started for debate that I have seen involving the NHS (on any level), euthanasia / the right to die ends up the same way. People drag in what happened to their aunt, their own personal religious views and other experiences and it becomes impossible to have a rationale or dispassionate discussion (and or people jump to getting all aeriated).

[Mice!]

6 hours ago, Houseplant said:

 

OK, so let's take a very simple, but real world scenario. You have 10 patients with COVID who need ventilatory support. You have 8 ICU beds. 2 of the patients are likely not to survive with or without artificial ventilation due to pre-existing comorbidities, but it may prolong their lives for a few days. Who do you give the ICU beds to? It's not a trick question and the answer  is obvious to most people. You could argue that there should be 10 ICU beds, but that is not the reality of the situation at hand and when extrapolated to a national level, it would equate to thousands of beds. Even if they were funded, there wouldn't be enough qualified staff to look after them. Again, you could argue that more staff need to be trained (or imported), but that takes years. Then consider that this is a dynamic situation, bed and staff requirements change significantly over time in the era of pandemics. Even with the best will in the world and appropriate funding, there will be some rationing of services and judgement about individual patients will have to be made. 

In black and white the 8 that could survive get the beds, it's that simple, until you or a loved one are one of the two.

Horrible position to be in deciding who does or doesn't get treatment. 

 

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

What about vaccinating a tramp in front of a higher rate tax payer? On paper, that’s an easy one right, and the higher rate tax payer has paid for more of the NHS.

Funnily enough they showed homeless people in Oldham? Getting the vaccine last week.

[WalkedUp]

48 minutes ago, Mice! said:

In black and white the 8 that could survive get the beds, it's that simple, until you or a loved one are one of the two.

A lady I know who died refused ICU as she felt her time was up. Brave and selfless woman. An update on the Birkenhead drill. 

[Mice!]

12 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

A lady I know who died refused ICU as she felt her time was up. Brave and selfless woman. An update on the Birkenhead drill. 

Very brave, I don't get the Birkenhead drill?

[WalkedUp]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Very brave, I don't get the Birkenhead drill?

HMS Birkenhead a famous ship wreck, there were not enough life boats so many men sacrificed themselves in order to save women and children first. 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Funnily enough they showed homeless people in Oldham? Getting the vaccine last week.

It’s a tricky one innit.

I saw that and my immediate reaction was ‘what on Earth...?’

Unpacking my thoughts, in a nano second my mind was thinking why do those people who have given up on life / who life has given up on get the jab in front of a whole host of more worthy recipients? 

Then I thought, well, what about people who drink too much, smoke, are over weight? Can it be argued they have given up on their own health and so where do they slot into the list.

Then the brutal accountant in me said ‘it’s mental giving it to a Homeless person when in the same town there will be someone who runs a business employing and supporting 20+ families etc who should have it first’.

Then I thought, blimey this is getting tricky. No easy answers, best post on PW and get a discussion going until someone chooses to read and take everything out of context and accuse me of wanting to euthanise homeless people 😆 You know how it goes on here 😆😝

[WalkedUp]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

euthanise homeless people

You have my vote for Supreme Leader pal 👍

[Mungler]

Just now, WalkedUp said:

You have my vote for Supreme Leader pal 👍

Hahahahahhaah that made me laugh 

[WalkedUp]

“Just before she sank, (Captain) Salmond called out that "all those who can swim jump overboard, and make for the boats". Colonel Seton, however, recognising that rushing the lifeboats would risk swamping them and endangering the women and children, ordered the men to stand fast, and only three men made the attempt. The cavalry horses were freed and driven into the sea in the hope that they might be able to swim ashore.

The soldiers did not move, even as the ship broke up barely 20 minutes after striking the rock. Some of the soldiers managed to swim the 2 miles (3.2 km) to shore over the next 12 hours, often hanging on to pieces of the wreck to stay afloat, but most drowned, died of exposure, or were killed by sharks.”

6 minutes ago, WalkedUp said:

HMS Birkenhead a famous ship wreck, there were not enough life boats so many men sacrificed themselves in order to save women and children first. 

 

[Vince Green]

A good friend of mine died from a heart condition a couple of years back. His life could have been saved by a heart transplant and he was on the waiting list at Harefield to receive one.

But he was realistic, he soon realised that available hearts go to the younger or youngest compatible candidates on the waiting list and he was proved right in the end.

[Mice!]

8 hours ago, Mungler said:

Then I thought, blimey this is getting tricky. No easy answers, best post on PW and get a discussion going until someone chooses to read and take everything out of context and accuse me of wanting to euthanise homeless people 😆 You know how it goes on here 😆😝

I didn't catch the full article,  but they were saying the homeless were at high risk or were catching the virus so were being given the vaccine. 

You weren't alone wondering why they were getting it over others, but I'm guessing it made sense to give them the vaccine and try and keep them out of the hospitals.

8 hours ago, WalkedUp said:

“Just before she sank, (Captain) Salmond called out that "all those who can swim jump overboard, and make for the boats". Colonel Seton, however, recognising that rushing the lifeboats would risk swamping them and endangering the women and children, ordered the men to stand fast, and only three men made the attempt. The cavalry horses were freed and driven into the sea in the hope that they might be able to swim ashore.

The soldiers did not move, even as the ship broke up barely 20 minutes after striking the rock. Some of the soldiers managed to swim the 2 miles (3.2 km) to shore over the next 12 hours, often hanging on to pieces of the wreck to stay afloat, but most drowned, died of exposure, or were killed by sharks.”

 

Cheers.

[figgy]

It's just common sense they have to have a system of worth and value to life expectancy.