410 kill range

[Walker570]

W

14 minutes ago, Westley said:

Exactly.

I taught my Grandkids with a 28 bore Yildiz, in my opinion, a far better option.

With all due respect to Dave Carrie, he is pushing the 410 as a way to introduce kids to the sport and I disagree.  The 28 or even a 20 gauge with soft rounds would be better.

My first shotgun was a Parker Hale rifle conversion and had a serious full choke barrel. I was 12yrs of age at the time(birthday present) and I couldn't hit anyhting moving with it. It then became my 'rifle' as I would crawl through the high grass and ferns till I could get 15-20yrds from a rabbit and use it like a rifle. Fortunately I was a big lad and moved to my Grandfathers 12 gauge very quickly and I was hooked for life.  To switch youngsters on you need to see clays shatter right from the start, open choke and lots of shot is the answer.

[Stonepark]

On 26/01/2021 at 14:45, turbo33 said:

I think barrel and cartridge compatibility play a large part in this too. I had a Mossberg Hushpower (FC) 3 shot. It threw awful patterns with a variety of cartridges, and at 20 yards, it was done.

I have one as well, same issue.... over choked... I had the choke opend out to 10mm and it improved markedly.

[Ultrastu]

Well I hope to be introducing  my boy this summer to decoying pigeons .

I have my .410 and a 20b to start him out on .

I'm going to go with the .410 first .as its lighter ,quieter  , kicks less  and is single shot  (much easier for me to control the situation - one cart at a time  )

The gun is capable and pattern not too tight .id start him on basic gun handling etc .and then get him to hit birds on the deck or in trees first. Before trying any moving targets  .

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Ultrastu

[Stonepark]

47 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

My first shotgun was a Parker Hale rifle conversion and had a serious full choke barrel. I was 12yrs of age at the time(birthday present) and I couldn't hit anyhting moving with it. 

  To switch youngsters on you need to see clays shatter right from the start, open choke and lots of shot is the answer.

 

Obviously you did not get to choose the gun but the 410 bore was not the issue, as you admit it the gun was less than perfect as it was over choked and you don't state what cartridges you were using... 2 1/2 inch no 5 or no 6 which are again less than perfect due to poor pattern at range? 

 

Lightly choked or multichoke 410's with 18g of No 7 or 7.5 for game and 18g no9 for clays are perfectly capable to 35 yards.

[London Best]

I am sure many are forgetting that it is only the .410 MAGNUM with 3 inch chambers which will take 18/19 gram shot loads. Those new to the calibre, or indeed to shotguns generally, need to be aware that many .410’s will only take the 2 1/2 inch cartridge, and some even only 2 inch. I have owned seven .410 guns in the last sixty years and never yet had a 3 inch. Five were 2 1/2 and one old Belgian just a 2 inch.

edit: out of three old Belgian folders, not one had ever been proofed for nitro powder.

Edited January 27, 2021 by London Best

[Walker570]

35 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

Obviously you did not get to choose the gun but the 410 bore was not the issue, as you admit it the gun was less than perfect as it was over choked and you don't state what cartridges you were using... 2 1/2 inch no 5 or no 6 which are again less than perfect due to poor pattern at range? 

 

Lightly choked or multichoke 410's with 18g of No 7 or 7.5 for game and 18g no9 for clays are perfectly capable to 35 yards.

The year was 1952 and the very best I could go and purchase from our newsagents...bear in mind I am 12years old... were full brass cases and yes probably # 5s and 2 inch Eley #5s.  Awesome on rabbits at 20yrds but useless at anyhting moving.

I cannot remember what happened to that shotgun but once I could shoulder the BSA 12 gauge it never came out of the cupboard.  We are so fortunate today with the plethora of 410 shells available and beautifully made shotguns at relatively low prices.

[London Best]

Neville, you said your first shotgun was a Parker Hale rifle conversion. If I remember right they converted many SMLE’s to .410. If it was one of those then there is really little wonder you could not hit anything moving!

[turbo33]

13 hours ago, Stonepark said:

I have one as well, same issue.... over choked... I had the choke opend out to 10mm and it improved markedly.

Interesting!

[London Best]

It is possible (likely) that the issue is that if 12 bore choke dimensions are applied to a .410 then it is over choked.  A .410 bore has only about 1/3 the volume of a 12 bore and is little more that half the diameter of a 12.
If, for sake of argument, a full choke 12 bore has .040” (a full millimetre) of choke in it then a .410 would only want half of that, or even slightly less to achieve the same percentage constriction. I would expect a .410 to need .016”/.020”  (0,4/0,5 mm) to throw full choke patterns.  Most .410’s should have a 10,4 mm bore, so 10 mm muzzle would be about right.
Just my theory ( as a toolmaker).   
I am sure one of our members from the gunmaking fraternity could enlighten us. Perhaps Gunman or Fil would care to comment?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

23 minutes ago, London Best said:

It is possible (likely) that the issue is that if 12 bore choke dimensions are applied to a .410 then it is over choked.  A .410 bore has only about 1/3 the volume of a 12 bore and is little more that half the diameter of a 12.
If, for sake of argument, a full choke 12 bore has .040” (a full millimetre) of choke in it then a .410 would only want half of that, or even slightly less to achieve the same percentage constriction. I would expect a .410 to need .016”/.020”  (0,4/0,5 mm) to throw full choke patterns.  Most .410’s should have a 10,4 mm bore, so 10 mm muzzle would be about right.
Just my theory ( as a toolmaker).   
I am sure one of our members from the gunmaking fraternity could enlighten us. Perhaps Gunman or Fil would care to comment?

Sounds fair, but patterning the gun against paper would prove the point.

[London Best]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Sounds fair, but patterning the gun against paper would prove the point.

Oh, yeah, obviously. I quite agree. Perhaps I should have mentioned that in my post.

[London Best]

For what it is worth, I have just measured my two .410 guns.  
Both were last proved under 1954 English rules of proof.  
Army & Navy: Right barrel proof stamped .410”, muzzle dia .406”.  
                        Left barrel proof stamped .405”, muzzle dia .399”.   

W. Richards: Right barrel proof stamped .410”, muzzle dia .404”.  
                      Left barrel proof stamped .410”, muzzle dia .404”

This does not mean that one gun carries .004” (,1 mm) and .006” (,15 mm) of choke and the other gun has .006” (,15 mm) in each barrel as the bores would be measured at proof with plug gauges and could actually measure nearly up to the next proof size, or .005” larger.

Also, I did not measure the bores immediately before the choke constriction to prove what the actual constriction is.   
Therefore, these figures prove nothing other than that my two guns measure much bigger in the muzzles than the figure of 10 mm (.394”) to which others have said they have had guns opened out. Those guns must have been very small originally.  
I have never patterned either of these guns on paper. All I can say is that both perform beautifully with 14 grams of 7, 7 1/2, or 9 on both game and clays.

[222mark]

I purchased a Huglu .410 a few years ago secondhand , it had 39 thou of choke in the top barrel and 21 thou in the bottom barrel. Massively over choked and the top barrel shot a much wider pattern than the botttom,!!!! ( choke bounce). Half an hour with the reamer had them at 16 and 20 thou shooting fantastic 35yrd patterns but too tight for closer. 

[Agriv8]

Thanks for the info guys I have learnt my little 410 should be capable of clean COVID kills between 20-35 yards and I intend to pattern this when time allows.

I have learnt that I can get a sound mod and use sub sonic shell for close range ratting work and be a little louder than an air gun.

I have learnt that a good few on this use the 410 gauge on a variety of driven game and pest control.

That just leaves the muppet pulling the trigger (me) to get my eye in with my little TK-36 ( that could be where the whole plan falls over !!!!! )

hopefully my sound mod and ShotKam mount for 410 will turn up soon and I will see if I can get some footage captured for you all I promise I will capture some misses as well !

Agriv8

 

[Ultrastu]

Excellent stuff .

I find that with the mod on the end you need a slightly higher head position on the stock .as u can see in my photos I use a simple ebay  strap on stock pouch .

This lifts me about 5 - 8 mm and seems perfect for line of sight down the barrel .

(Works for me at least ) it also gives me somewhere to store 5 carts on gun (very useful  when a second shot is needed quickly .) And a zip up pouch for knife , Call ,face veil etc .

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by Ultrastu

[Walker570]

7 hours ago, London Best said:

Neville, you said your first shotgun was a Parker Hale rifle conversion. If I remember right they converted many SMLE’s to .410. If it was one of those then there is really little wonder you could not hit anything moving!

Yep, that is what is was, awesome at 20yrds  and pattern was about 6 inches at that range

13 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Excellent stuff .

I find that with the mod on the end you need a slightly higher head position on the stock .as u can see in my photos I use a simple ebay  strap on stock pouch .

This lifts me about 5 - 8 mm and seems perfect for line of sight down the barrel .

(Works for me at least ) it also gives me somewhere to store 5 carts on gun (very useful  when a second shot is needed quickly .) And a zip up pouch for knife , Call ,face veil etc .

 

What barrel?  I never see it because I am concentrating on the bird.

[wymberley]

7 hours ago, London Best said:

Neville, you said your first shotgun was a Parker Hale rifle conversion. If I remember right they converted many SMLE’s to .410. If it was one of those then there is really little wonder you could not hit anything moving!

Yep, damned awkward. I find it best to stand still.

[Ultrastu]

Yes exactly. But for that to work  .the barrel must be pointed in the right place (even if your not aware  of it .) 

[Agriv8]

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

Excellent stuff .

I find that with the mod on the end you need a slightly higher head position on the stock .as u can see in my photos I use a simple ebay  strap on stock pouch .

This lifts me about 5 - 8 mm and seems perfect for line of sight down the barrel .

(Works for me at least ) it also gives me somewhere to store 5 carts on gun (very useful  when a second shot is needed quickly .) And a zip up pouch for knife , Call ,face veil etc .

 

Ok I have a selection of comb risers so will have a play setting these up. 
 

I have some air gun targets that I will pin up to some trees and pace out 20 30 35 yards on my permission in a view to work out where it shoots will also give a rough pattern test !

as with my clay shooting the ShotKam is an invaluable tool for ***** the lead you thought you’d given it and what it was in reality !

Thanks

Agriv8

[Stonepark]

I will try to copy this table and see if it works as it demonstrates that different countries and brands have their own interpretation of the choking for the 410..

Chokes	Briley	English		Khan/Revo K226	Italian
Xtra Full	0.383
Full	0.386	0.395		0.380	0.390
Light Full	0.389
Threequarters (imp Mod)	0.392	0.399		0.385	0.395
Half (Mod)	0.395	0.402		0.390	0.400
Light Mod	0.398
Imp Cyl	0.401	0.406		0.395	0.405
Improved Skeet	0.403
Skeet	0.405
Light Skeet	0.407
Cyl	0.410	0.410		0.400	0.410

 

As can be seen, my Khan came very over choked with multi chokes being very tight overall (I only ever used Cyl and Imp Cyl), but once replaced with Briley Chokes has been giving much better (more regular) patterns.

On my 410 OU , Briley Light Mod gives the best most dense pattern, closely followed by Briley Mod (but pattern is slightly less even and patchier) and corresponds with the traditional english 410 full choke and then tighter Briley chokes are progressively worse.