America

[udderlyoffroad]

33 minutes ago, henry d said:

Is merely opinion, have a look at a few stats from the states.

Googling, and linking to, research that appears to agree with your point of view, IS NOT research, it's an example of applied confirmation bias. 

Or, these days 'journalism'...

I'll have a proper read of that paper when I finish work tonight rather than attempt a literature review during a coffee break.

But if ever harsher lockdowns and mask enforcement truly worked, I doubt we would have filled 100'000 body bags.  And spare me the 'we haven't bit strict/harsh enough' argument, it is pure reductivism, and ignores things like basic human nature.

I still think you owe @NoBodyImportant an apology for your patronising tone.  He is, after all, complying with the law where he lives.

 

 

[ordnance]

Quote

But if ever harsher lockdowns and mask enforcement truly worked, I doubt we would have filled 100'000 body bags.  And spare me the 'we haven't bit strict/harsh enough' argument, it is pure reductivism, and ignores things like basic human nature.

Or it could equally be if mask enforcement and lockdowns didn't work we could be looking at 200,000 body bags. Lockdowns do slow the spread and infections, after infections come hospitalisation and deaths. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by ordnance

[henry d]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I still think you owe @NoBodyImportant an apology for your patronising tone.  He is, after all, complying with the law where he lives

Really ? I googled N Carolina face mask rules and that was the first relevant one, so we can strike through confirmation bias and he does not appear to be complying if that link is still relevant. **Edit** dated 2/2/2021

[udderlyoffroad]

4 minutes ago, henry d said:

and he does not appear to be complying if that link is still relevant.

I'm not here to defend his actions, I've re-read his post and the NC state's page.  I was objecting to your tone. 

But you appointing yourself to finger wag and you seem to forget that large parts of the US haven't descended into a police state, unlike the UK, especially North of the border.  Any allegedly free nation, where the police are seriously deciding whether or not scotch eggs constitute meals, or fining people for having a coffee, means  freedom as we know it is dead.

 

6 minutes ago, henry d said:

so we can strike through confirmation bias

We most certainly cannot.  Confirmation bias I was referring to refers to you googling stats on masks, that agree with your point of view, not the NC mask legislation, and @NoBodyImportant adherence or otherwise thereof.

 

52 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Or it could equally be if mask enforcement and lockdowns didn't work we could be looking at 200,000 body bags.

Not judging by literally any other state with more relaxed rules, or indeed where the populace isn't quite so docile as the UK.

 

54 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Lockdowns do slow the spread and infections 

Do they heck as like.  100k dead, and one of the strictest lockdowns in the world and a compliant population.  Just what will it take to make people see this is madness?  And that's before we get to the body count as a result of this lockdown.  It will break a million, easily.  Missed cancer treatments, suicides, elderly effectively executed in care homes.  And the lockdown, allegedly, still enjoys public support.  I truly despair.

 

55 minutes ago, ordnance said:

after infections come hospitalisation and deaths. 

Also not proven.  Depends on whether you had a competent healthcare system to begin with.

[Rewulf]

Well said Udderly , you just saved me a whole load of typing 

Ive said it once or twice and Ill say it again, Sweden https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden No lockdowns , no forced mask wearing, and as much as  people will cry about Swedes all live in tiny snowbound communes and not cities like us (they dont), and 'Its getting worse over there'  ... Its actually not, they have good control over infections and deaths.
 

10 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Also not proven.  Depends on whether you had a competent healthcare system to begin with.

Strangeley enough , Belarus is a good example of a good healthcare system, another country with minimal measures and low infections/deaths.

[discobob]

And somewhere in the middle of all these viewpoints is the truth - which has yet to be fully realized - and more than likely won't for quite a number of years.

[ordnance]

Quote

Do they heck as like.  100k dead, and one of the strictest lockdowns in the world and a compliant population.  Just what will it take to make people see this is madness?  And that's before we get to the body count as a result of this lockdown.  It will break a million, easily.  Missed cancer treatments, suicides, elderly effectively executed in care homes.  And the lockdown, allegedly, still enjoys public support.  I truly despair.

 

They don't prevent all deaths, but the number of deaths would be much higher without the lockdowns etc, that's just factual not my opinion.  The virus spreads from person to person, if less people are meeting during lockdowns then there are less infections.

[udderlyoffroad]

3 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

They don't prevent all deaths, but the number of deaths would be much higher without the lockdowns etc, that's just factual not my opinion.

If it was factual and not your opinion you could point to some evidence to back that up.

Edited February 2, 2021 by udderlyoffroad

[mel b3]

48 minutes ago, discobob said:

And somewhere in the middle of all these viewpoints is the truth - which has yet to be fully realized - and more than likely won't for quite a number of years.

This is the reality.

29 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

If it was factual and not your opinion you could point to some evidence to back that up.

Whilst I agree with some of your points , you must see that two people that never meet , will not pass the virus to each other , that is fact.

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Whilst I agree with some of your points , you must see that two people that never meet , will not pass the virus to each other , that is fact.

On the face of it , that would be the case, then you hear of people not leaving their homes since March, no visitors, food delivered ect, then catching and dying of covid ?

Also back in March , everyone milling about in supermarkets, no masks , going to school ect, daily deaths back then were very low, then we had lockdown and deaths rocketed.
This time, DESPITE lockdowns, tiers and compulsory masks, deaths and infections have again skyrocketed, worse than before.
You would think even a small level of herd immunity would have helped? But it seems like a whole new virus....

Back in March-May , I didnt know of a single person who had it , and certainly no one who died, its a whole new ball game this time around.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 minute ago, mel b3 said:

This is the reality.

I agree absolutely that the truth won't be known for a number of years. 

But the final tally must include those who were unable to receive treatment due to lockdown, or took their own lives, or otherwise had their lives cut short thanks to the lockdown measures.  It would be nice also not to count people who died in traffic accidents, or indeed have any sort of accurate system to determine cause of death

 

3 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

you must see that two people that never meet , will not pass the virus to each other , that is fact.

And who is to say that this is a good thing?  Herd immunity, after all, is how vaccines protect a population.

If the vulnerable shelter, and the less vulnerable go about their daily lives....oh wait, that's how civilized countries are doing it.

If you can create a priority list of groups for vaccination, you automatically have also created a list of people who should shelter, and those who should be allowed* to go about their lives as normal.

*Can't believe I even have to write that.  Allowed to go about your life as normal.  What have we become?

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

*Can't believe I even have to write that.  Allowed to go about your life as normal.  What have we become?

The mental health impact on people close to me is quite apparent.
I cant imagine what its like for people who were already suffering from depression or loneliness, never mind those with physical health problems who cant or darent get treatment.

[udderlyoffroad]

41 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The mental health impact on people close to me is quite apparent

Same.

Usual social media/echo chamber/confirmation bias (I do hope @henryd has googled it) caveats apply.

[discobob]

44 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The mental health impact on people close to me is quite apparent.
I cant imagine what its like for people who were already suffering from depression or loneliness, never mind those with physical health problems who cant or darent get treatment.

I have mentioned this elsewhere - my Brother in Law swung himself from the rafters a couple of months ago. Luckily they got to him after a work colleague called the police and they got there quick. That was a very upsetting couple of weeks. He is still suffering with neck and muscular skeleton issues around his upper torso - they also broke a couple of ribs getting to him.

He is probably someone you would never have thought would do it. From what I understand now though they are usually the ones that do. 

He puts it down to the negativity in the Covid World - it got too much for him

[ordnance]

Quote

 

And who is to say that this is a good thing?  Herd immunity, after all, is how vaccines protect a population.

If the vulnerable shelter, and the less vulnerable go about their daily lives....oh wait, that's how civilized countries are doing it.

 

Yes a vaccine protects without the inconvenience of a few hundred thousand people dying to achieve it,  as for the vulnerable sheltering you are talking about tens of millions of people in the UK. One example bellow of many. 

  

Quote

We found that 8 million people – over 12% of the population – have been diagnosed with asthma. This means more people have had an asthma diagnosis than have been diagnosed with all other lung diseases combined.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by ordnance

[ordnance]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

If it was factual and not your opinion you could point to some evidence to back that up.

That's like asking me for evidence the earth is round, its so obvious i shouldn't need to. less close contacts less infections simple. 

Quote

Viruses spread from person to person mainly in droplets that fly out when you cough or sneeze. These tiny drops from a sick person move through the air and land on the mouths or noses of others nearby.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by ordnance

[udderlyoffroad]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

That's like asking me for evidence the earth is round, its so obvious i shouldn't need to.

Really, you couldn't have cited a worse example.  "Lockdowns work, it's obvious" has obvious parallels with the serfs who believed in a  flat earth and geocentric universe, as preached by the state, uh, the catholic church.  The 'science' was far from clear at the time.  Turns out Kepler, Galileo, Newton et al were right, but it wasn't a settled argument at the time.

 

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

less close contacts less infections simple. 

But that wasn't your assertion that I challenged.  You said

5 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

the number of deaths would be much higher without the lockdowns etc

It really isn't proven that is the case.

Take a look at the data from Sweden I screenshotted above.  Roughly the same trend as us, only without ruinous lockdowns.

The case for lockdowns is far from clear.

But hey, you just keep repeating the mantra of more self-flagellation must be good for us.  I guess discbob's brother-in-law is just an acceptable casualty along the way? 

[ordnance]

 

Quote

 

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

That's like asking me for evidence the earth is round, its so obvious i shouldn't need to.

Really, you couldn't have cited a worse example.  "Lockdowns work, it's obvious" has obvious parallels with the serfs who believed in a  flat earth and geocentric universe, as preached by the state, uh, the catholic church.  The 'science' was far from clear at the time.  Turns out Kepler, Galileo, Newton et al were right, but it wasn't a settled argument at the time.

 

Lockdowns decrease infections, fact. If they are a good thing or the way to go, is a different argument. If you want to disagree with the experts in infectious disease, immunologists etc that say the less contact people have the less a virus can spread feel free. 

Its not a difficulty concept if you sit in the house and do not have contact with people you are less likely to get a cold, the flu, or VC19, a ten year old could understand that. 

[udderlyoffroad]

3 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Lockdowns decrease infections, fact.

Once again, I'm challenging your assertion that

6 hours ago, ordnance said:

the number of deaths would be much higher without the lockdowns etc,

NOT infections.

But you seem hell bent on conflating the two, whether wilfully or through genuine ignorance, I cannot possibly say.  But Infections and deaths are two different things.  

9 minutes ago, ordnance said:

If you want to disagree with the experts in infectious disease, immunologists etc that say the less contact people have the less a virus can spread feel free. 

Firstly, 'experts' don't agree, far from it - remember the early mask advice - and in any case you need be very careful about making policy on the basis of asking experts questions.  They will answer the question you asked, and only the question you asked.  Whether or not it's the right question to be asking is another matter.

 

11 minutes ago, ordnance said:

if you sit in the house and do not have contact with people you are less likely to get a cold, the flu, or VC19, a ten year old could understand that. 

Your metaphorical ten year old would also understand that systems are complex. 

So, in this instance, individuals locking themselves away, lowering their physical activity, depressing their immune system and avoiding social contact could cause other problems that will yield a net higher death toll.

But you carry on living your reductivst dream.  Must self flagellate.  Haven't left the house in months, did I do good master?

By the way, if in a few years time, the data shows ever harsher lockdowns did save more people than they killed, well there's a hat on my rack that would probably go down nicely with a bottle of Chianti.  That's fine.  I'd like to be wrong. 

But I think Einstein said it best, something about the definition of insanity being doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.

[ordnance]

 

Quote

 

  44 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Lockdowns decrease infections, fact.

Once again, I'm challenging your assertion that.

 

You can try and spin it whatever way you want, lockdowns do cut down infections and deaths from CV19 fact. If you can't understand how the less people interact the less respiratory  disease can spread its pointless trying explain something that's obviously going over your head.   as i said a ten year old understand that concept. If lockdowns are a good idea regarded jobs menial health etc is a whole different debate. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by ordnance

[henry d]

8 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

But you appointing yourself to finger wag and you seem to forget that large parts of the US...

That is irrelevant to what you took umbridge at, don't deviate.

[udderlyoffroad]

6 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You can try and spin it whatever way you want, lockdowns do cut down infections and deaths from CV19 fact.

This the third variation on the assertion you've made.  You can't make a cohesive argument.  And it is far from a fact.  Correlation is not causation.

5 minutes ago, henry d said:

That is irrelevant to what you took umbridge at, don't deviate.

I know exactly what I took umbridge at, which, once again, was your unecessarily patronising tone when our US correspondant relayed his lived experience. 

Imagine it the other way round, and he decided to finger wag at you, were you on a US forum, and somebody asked a question about how the lockdown restrictions were in Scotland, and you did nought but detail a trip to the supermarket, and measures you were obliged take/not take.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by udderlyoffroad

[12gauge82]

10 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Googling, and linking to, research that appears to agree with your point of view, IS NOT research, it's an example of applied confirmation bias. 

Or, these days 'journalism'...

I'll have a proper read of that paper when I finish work tonight rather than attempt a literature review during a coffee break.

But if ever harsher lockdowns and mask enforcement truly worked, I doubt we would have filled 100'000 body bags.  And spare me the 'we haven't bit strict/harsh enough' argument, it is pure reductivism, and ignores things like basic human nature.

I still think you owe @NoBodyImportant an apology for your patronising tone.  He is, after all, complying with the law where he lives.

 

 

Well said. 

You'll have more chance getting blood from a stone than getting Henry to look at something from someone else's view point, much less an apology. 

[ordnance]

 

Quote

 

 11 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You can try and spin it whatever way you want, lockdowns do cut down infections and deaths from CV19 fact.

This the third variation on the assertion you've made.  You cant make a cohesive argument.  And it is far from a fact.  Correlation is not causation.

 

A simple question, do you not understand how not being in close in contact someone with a cold, flu, CV19, can lessen your chances of them infecting you.

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by ordnance

[MARSH GUN]

On 01/02/2021 at 02:17, Lloyd90 said:

 

Didn't Biden rave about how awful Trump managed Covid, said he would sort it all out, then once he got in made an announcement that there was nothing he could do about it?  

 

 

 The USA is getting some vaccinations done, 9.6%, We  have more %vaccinations than the USA and are in the top few and look at our death toll.

I can not help but wonder how these low vaccination countries will handle the new covid variants. It looks like a lot are going to die to me .

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by MARSH GUN