Tradesman

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Unlike most trades decorators can directly add value to a property so are always in demand by landlords and estate agents. Tatty house? get the decorators in, spend £2,500 and add £10,000 to the value of the property.

Thats why they can charge so much, and they do

I wish I could get them in here. They quoted Dec last year and are now due Oct. Price for repainting bedroom and one lounge wall £1200 + paint. It's an expensive trade but you do get what you pay for. 

[Wilts#Dave]

23 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Sorry to have overloaded your main circuit breaker

Working a 40 hour week on minimum wage nets our burger flipper circa £17k p/a (I'll spare you the several paragraphs of maths :)).  For the extra few thousand a year in my example given above, I personally do not consider it worth all the aggravation and stress of running a business only charging that sort of rate.  That's merely the point I've been trying to make: it's got to be worth your while financially to be self-employed, which I don't believe a day rate of £160 facilitates.

It sounds like you're fulfilling the sparkie's stereotype of "king of the site" tbh, looking down at other trades thinking they're not worth as much as you.  The bare truth is you're just another bloke hired in to do a job, same as we all are, and if the customer values our input to their lives at the price we charge they'll happily pay the money.

If I'm deciphering your question correctly, is the following an example of what you mean?

I'm a builder and you want a fence putting up.  I quote you a price for three days' work.  On day three, at around 15:30 I stand back, admire my handiwork, pack my kit up, return your coffee cup to the kitchen and invite you to inspect the finished job.

Do you expect me to reduce the labour bill by 90 minutes pro rata?  Because where am I supposed to go during the next 90 minutes to make up a day's earnings?  Also, who's going to pay me for the time it takes to sit at my computer and type up the invoice, then file all the receipts associated with the job after I've inputted them into my book-keeping software?  Maybe I've broken a tool that needs sorting out, I've got a machine to service, or there's some of my kit needs cleaning after working on the job for you.  I might need to stop by a supplier to replenish some consumables I've used up on your job.

Very often the job isn't finished the moment someone drives away from your house.

To look at it the other way around, if I got home late that day because the last bit of the job was a real pain and it took a bit longer than I thought, would you be expecting me to bill you extra?

Haha, oh dear. Someone’s got a massive chip on their shoulder! 
No ‘king of the trades’ here my friend. 
But if that’s the patronising route you’d like to go down I did have to complete a 3 year apprenticeship with multiple exams along the way, along with other additional qualifications and ongoing update courses as and when regulations change. 
Add to that an ongoing yearly fee/inspection to allow me to sign off jobs, I’m afraid when comparing an electricians skill set/expenses alongside risk to that of a decorator there really is no comparison (and why they tend to demand a higher fee). 
Sadly not everyone can earn the same money because they go to work in a van, it’s well advertised what the going rates are for vocations before you go into them and that’s just life. 
If you’re honest with yourself you know that, but hey ho some people like an argument don’t they! 
You’ve gone off on a tangent again, I don’t personally care what you or anyone charges, merely my opinion and observations which we’re all entitled to. The chap asking the original question has got someone for £160/day whether you like it or not.  Don’t take things as such a personal insult, you didn’t price the job did you so calm yourself down 😂🙄 

[Vince Green]

I will repeat again without wishing to offend anybody. As a property developer here in London painters and decorators are  top of the tree, they charge the most and and are hardest to book. Electricians, plumbers, kitchen fitters are two a penny by comparison.

[Lloyd90]

11 minutes ago, Wilts#Dave said:

Haha, oh dear. Someone’s got a massive chip on their shoulder! 
No ‘king of the trades’ here my friend. 
But if that’s the patronising route you’d like to go down I did have to complete a 3 year apprenticeship with multiple exams along the way, along with other additional qualifications and ongoing update courses as and when regulations change. 
Add to that an ongoing yearly fee/inspection to allow me to sign off jobs, I’m afraid when comparing an electricians skill set/expenses alongside risk to that of a decorator there really is no comparison (and why they tend to demand a higher fee). 
Sadly not everyone can earn the same money because they go to work in a van, it’s well advertised what the going rates are for vocations before you go into them and that’s just life. 
If you’re honest with yourself you know that, but hey ho some people like an argument don’t they! 
You’ve gone off on a tangent again, I don’t personally care what you or anyone charges, merely my opinion and observations which we’re all entitled to. The chap asking the original question has got someone for £160/day whether you like it or not.  Don’t take things as such a personal insult, you didn’t price the job did you so calm yourself down 😂🙄 

Just out of interest, what does a tradesman make in most trades per year these days? 
 

£160 a day for general tradesman or have I mis-read? 
 

5 days a week = £800 x say 46 weeks (allowing for 6 weeks off for holidays and whatever else) = £36,800 a year. 

[Vince Green]

6 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Just out of interest, what does a tradesman make in most trades per year these days? 
 

£160 a day for general tradesman or have I mis-read? 
 

5 days a week = £800 x say 46 weeks (allowing for 6 weeks off for holidays and whatever else) = £36,800 a year. 

£2500 to paint a flat in a week is standard, paint is not that much. on top, they buy the mega buckets.

two blokes gone by friday. If you need to strip wall paper £4000. and three blokes'

But you add £10,000 to the value of the property

Edited August 25, 2021 by Vince Green

[Lloyd90]

4 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

£2500 to paint a flat in a week is standard, paint is not that much. on top

Bit of a difference from £160 a day. 
 

If they did £2500 a week for 46 weeks (6 weeks holidays and breaks etc) it’s easily over £100k a year 😳. 
 

Is that just one bloke? Nice number. 

[Vince Green]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

Bit of a difference from £160 a day. 
 

If they did £2500 a week for 46 weeks (6 weeks holidays and breaks etc) it’s easily over £100k a year 😳. 
 

Is that just one bloke? Nice number. 

No one bloke and a Polish or two usually. But my mate Pete will do a flat om his own in a week. No trouble.

£100 k a year is not big earnings. I know window cleaners who earn more than that 

[Lloyd90]

6 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

£100 k a year is not big earnings. I know window cleaners who earn more than that 

Not that much eh? It only puts you in someone like the top 3% of UK earners … 

 

Or do you mean the company makes over £100k turnover, not profit?

[Vince Green]

8 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

Not that much eh? It only puts you in someone like the top 3% of UK earners … 

 

Or do you mean the company makes over £100k turnover, not profit?

No these are one man bands, working monday to friday. A £100 k a year is peanuts As I say, a window cleaner can earn more than that

Edited August 25, 2021 by Vince Green

[Jim Neal]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

Just out of interest, what does a tradesman make in most trades per year these days? 
 

£160 a day for general tradesman or have I mis-read? 
 

5 days a week = £800 x say 46 weeks (allowing for 6 weeks off for holidays and whatever else) = £36,800 a year. 

Be careful not to confuse your figure, which is turnover, with what they "make" if you mean money in their pocket after everyone's had their pound of flesh

There's so much variation; differences in profit margin could mean one bloke ends up with more from £160 a day than another ends up with from £200.

Vince is talking London prices which are a bit of an anomaly really.  Round here I know the average day rate is around the £200 mark.

32 minutes ago, Wilts#Dave said:

Haha, oh dear. Someone’s got a massive chip on their shoulder! 
No ‘king of the trades’ here my friend. 
But if that’s the patronising route you’d like to go down I did have to complete a 3 year apprenticeship with multiple exams along the way, along with other additional qualifications and ongoing update courses as and when regulations change. 
Add to that an ongoing yearly fee/inspection to allow me to sign off jobs, I’m afraid when comparing an electricians skill set/expenses alongside risk to that of a decorator there really is no comparison (and why they tend to demand a higher fee). 
Sadly not everyone can earn the same money because they go to work in a van, it’s well advertised what the going rates are for vocations before you go into them and that’s just life. 
If you’re honest with yourself you know that, but hey ho some people like an argument don’t they! 
You’ve gone off on a tangent again, I don’t personally care what you or anyone charges, merely my opinion and observations which we’re all entitled to. The chap asking the original question has got someone for £160/day whether you like it or not.  Don’t take things as such a personal insult, you didn’t price the job did you so calm yourself down 😂🙄 

I've got no chip on my shoulder at all Dave, I'm not a decorator, I don't work for a day rate and being honest I'm earning above most typical trades so I'm not suffering in the slightest from penis envy.  I'm trying to stick up for poor old Pete The Paint who gets sneered at by the other guys on site.  I don't like an argument, I'm not a confrontational sort of person, but sometimes I feel the need to add a bit of balance to a topic.

I'm lost as to why you think I'm personally insulted?  And I'm quite calm thanks, although you don't seem to be!

Furthermore, I certainly don't believe I've been patronising - what have I said that you've perceived as patronising?  I've been trying to illustrate a point as a direct response to what you've said, giving examples and figures to back that up.

In an almost comedic manner, you've actually illustrated my point perfectly once again.  You're insisting that other trades are below your pay scale because you've had to do an apprenticeship and some tests, and pay ongoing costs to keep yourself certificated.  There's an air of superiority in the way you compare what you do to what a decorator does, hence my earlier observation.

Certificates and qualifications don't mean diddly to the punter when it comes to money.  It's the value customers place on a service - what they get out of it - which dictates the going rate for it.  That's why the guy above is happy employing someone who's content earning at the bottom end of the scale for his trade, because presumably he knows that he's going to get what he pays for.  As I said earlier, he could have struck lucky and found someone good who's trying to get established so he's still a bit cheap, but it's not guaranteed, especially as he's only got a couple of months' waiting list.  All the decent decorators I know of are now booking well in to next year and even the one after.

 

[Lloyd90]

22 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

Be careful not to confuse your figure, which is turnover, with what they "make" if you mean money in their pocket after everyone's had their pound of flesh

There's so much variation; differences in profit margin could mean one bloke ends up with more from £160 a day than another ends up with from £200.

Vince is talking London prices which are a bit of an anomaly really.  Round here I know the average day rate is around the £200 mark.

 

 

 

Yes I thought that was the case 👍🏻 
 

thank you 

[Wilts#Dave]

58 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

Be careful not to confuse your figure, which is turnover, with what they "make" if you mean money in their pocket after everyone's had their pound of flesh

There's so much variation; differences in profit margin could mean one bloke ends up with more from £160 a day than another ends up with from £200.

Vince is talking London prices which are a bit of an anomaly really.  Round here I know the average day rate is around the £200 mark.

I've got no chip on my shoulder at all Dave, I'm not a decorator, I don't work for a day rate and being honest I'm earning above most typical trades so I'm not suffering in the slightest from penis envy.  I'm trying to stick up for poor old Pete The Paint who gets sneered at by the other guys on site.  I don't like an argument, I'm not a confrontational sort of person, but sometimes I feel the need to add a bit of balance to a topic.

I'm lost as to why you think I'm personally insulted?  And I'm quite calm thanks, although you don't seem to be!

Furthermore, I certainly don't believe I've been patronising - what have I said that you've perceived as patronising?  I've been trying to illustrate a point as a direct response to what you've said, giving examples and figures to back that up.

In an almost comedic manner, you've actually illustrated my point perfectly once again.  You're insisting that other trades are below your pay scale because you've had to do an apprenticeship and some tests, and pay ongoing costs to keep yourself certificated.  There's an air of superiority in the way you compare what you do to what a decorator does, hence my earlier observation.

Certificates and qualifications don't mean diddly to the punter when it comes to money.  It's the value customers place on a service - what they get out of it - which dictates the going rate for it.  That's why the guy above is happy employing someone who's content earning at the bottom end of the scale for his trade, because presumably he knows that he's going to get what he pays for.  As I said earlier, he could have struck lucky and found someone good who's trying to get established so he's still a bit cheap, but it's not guaranteed, especially as he's only got a couple of months' waiting list.  All the decent decorators I know of are now booking well in to next year and even the one after.

 

Could go round in circles with you Jim, but there’s little point as you’re clearly intent to argue the toss all day long as to what my intentions are/ justify  decorators are worth huge amounts of money. 
No need to stick up for poor old Pete or whoever else you know who gets bullied on site but the decorators don’t even get looked down on where I am, and we work alongside them all the time without issue.
Good luck to any decorator earning good money, I merely pointed out what I would pay (in my area).  
The belittling of my trade in exchange is both hilarious and petty, but thanks for trying. 
Have a good one 👍🏼
 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Wilts#Dave

[Jim Neal]

21 hours ago, Wilts#Dave said:

Could go round in circles with you Jim, but there’s little point as you’re clearly intent to argue the toss all day long as to what my intentions are/ justify  decorators are worth huge amounts of money. 
No need to stick up for poor old Pete or whoever else you know who gets bullied on site but the decorators don’t even get looked down on where I am, and we work alongside them all the time without issue.
Good luck to any decorator earning good money, I merely pointed out what I would pay (in my area).  
The belittling of my trade in exchange is both hilarious and petty, but thanks for trying. 
Have a good one 👍🏼
 

I'll be honest Dave, you've got me absolutely baffled.  In reply to one of my earlier posts, you've put forward an argument that I'm wrong in saying that a £160 day rate doesn't equate to much more than a minimum wage job.  In response, I've then put down some figures to demonstrate my point that a £160 day rate only nets you a few thousand more than a shelf-stacker and that's just not enough to justify the aggravation of running a business.

You haven't put forward one single intelligent, lucid reply to any of the points I've made.  All you've done is post some sort of over-defensive, aggravated response, as if you think I'm having a pop at you personally.  I'm not, I'm trying to prop up one side of a debate with some intelligent input.

Furthermore, you've accused me of being wound up and needing to calm down, amongst other things, to which I think actually the reverse is true.  I can quite calmly engage in a debate with someone whose opinion differs from mine without getting hot under the collar.

You've accused me of belittling your trade - where, how? 

You've stated explicitly more than once that you don't feel a decorator is worth a certain amount of money, comparing the need in your trade to have qualifications and such like, and thus implying that decorators aren't worth the money other trades charge, which implies you think you're worth more.  Again, I've tried to illustrate another point which you seem oblivious to: customers simply don't see it like that.  When they consider the pricing we quote them, it's their own personal perception whether or not the price is good value.  They don't appreciate things like apprenticeships and qualifications.  All they care about is what they get out of it, and that's what opens their wallet.

Twice now you've accused me of being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm really not... however, you've taken issue with some of the things I've said but seem unable to produce any coherent response to my points.  It's kind of the other way around?

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, just been quoted by a local plumber a day rate of £240 plus Vat , £288 , 

Edited August 27, 2021 by oldypigeonpopper

[Scully]

Interesting thread. I’m a decorative painter, which isn’t the same as a painter and decorator….I don’t hang paper for a start. I charge 150.00 a day, but that’s ‘grim up North’ rates. I can charge much more for specialist effects but they’re rare nowadays. I up my rates for painting fitted kitchens, bathrooms etc, but it’s still not London rates. 
Most of the work is in the prep’ which your average punter hates doing, which is why they pay me to do it. If it ‘just needs a lick of paint’ then the customer can do it. 🙂

[Wilts#Dave]

11 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

I'll be honest Dave, you've got me absolutely baffled.  In reply to one of my earlier posts, you've put forward an argument that I'm wrong in saying that a £160 day rate doesn't equate to much more than a minimum wage job.  In response, I've then put down some figures to demonstrate my point that a £160 day rate only nets you a few thousand more than a shelf-stacker and that's just not enough to justify the aggravation of running a business.

You haven't put forward one single intelligent, lucid reply to any of the points I've made.  All you've done is post some sort of over-defensive, aggravated response, as if you think I'm having a pop at you personally.  I'm not, I'm trying to prop up one side of a debate with some intelligent input.

Furthermore, you've accused me of being wound up and needing to calm down, amongst other things, to which I think actually the reverse is true.  I can quite calmly engage in a debate with someone whose opinion differs from mine without getting hot under the collar.

You've accused me of belittling your trade - where, how? 

You've stated explicitly more than once that you don't feel a decorator is worth a certain amount of money, comparing the need in your trade to have qualifications and such like, and thus implying that decorators aren't worth the money other trades charge, which implies you think you're worth more.  Again, I've tried to illustrate another point which you seem oblivious to: customers simply don't see it like that.  When they consider the pricing we quote them, it's their own personal perception whether or not the price is good value.  They don't appreciate things like apprenticeships and qualifications.  All they care about is what they get out of it, and that's what opens their wallet.

Twice now you've accused me of being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm really not... however, you've taken issue with some of the things I've said but seem unable to produce any coherent response to my points.  It's kind of the other way around?

An electricians rate of pay has always been ‘higher’ than a painters, not sure what your problem is with that. Your belittling is pretending exams/qualifications etc don’t count for anything….utter rubbish! 
Gas engineers earn more money, as do other trades. What on earth makes you think every trade should earn the same baffles me, just because I happen to be in a trade that can charge more money you feel the need to think I consider myself superior which is nonsense.  
You might be well versed in writing long winded/well worded replies but you’re simply wrong when it comes to the pay grade argument and I won’t agree with you on that. 
The customer doesn’t decide what to pay people, I don’t decide what I’ll pay a mechanic etc etc etc. 
You’re clearly someone who can’t ever be wrong/take anyone else’s points on board, so let’s agree to disagree. 
Feel free to have the last word 👍🏼


 

2 hours ago, Scully said:

Interesting thread. I’m a decorative painter, which isn’t the same as a painter and decorator….I don’t hang paper for a start. I charge 150.00 a day, but that’s ‘grim up North’ rates. I can charge much more for specialist effects but they’re rare nowadays. I up my rates for painting fitted kitchens, bathrooms etc, but it’s still not London rates. 
Most of the work is in the prep’ which your average punter hates doing, which is why they pay me to do it. If it ‘just needs a lick of paint’ then the customer can do it. 🙂

How refreshing to read this reply! Exactly how the majority of my decorator friends operate, and are quite happy to do so. Rates will always differ with the type of work undertaken within a trade 👍🏼

 

[Jim Neal]

10 hours ago, Wilts#Dave said:

An electricians rate of pay has always been ‘higher’ than a painters, not sure what your problem is with that. Your belittling is pretending exams/qualifications etc don’t count for anything….utter rubbish! 
Gas engineers earn more money, as do other trades. What on earth makes you think every trade should earn the same baffles me, just because I happen to be in a trade that can charge more money you feel the need to think I consider myself superior which is nonsense.  
You might be well versed in writing long winded/well worded replies but you’re simply wrong when it comes to the pay grade argument and I won’t agree with you on that. 
The customer doesn’t decide what to pay people, I don’t decide what I’ll pay a mechanic etc etc etc. 
You’re clearly someone who can’t ever be wrong/take anyone else’s points on board, so let’s agree to disagree. 
Feel free to have the last word 👍🏼

Dave, this is getting a bit silly now.  Have you actually read anything I've written, properly?  Because it seems like you're responding to things I haven't even said.... it's like having an argument with my missus!

At no point have I ever stated that one trade should be paid more or less than another.  I haven't put a value on any specific trade, either on its own or relative to another trade.

At no point have I belittled you or your trade.

At no point have I ever suggested all trades should be on the same rates.

What I have said is that a £160 day rate doesn't put a self-employed person much better off than a minimum wage employee which, in my opinion, doesn't make it worth the hassle of running a business.

I've asked you quite a few questions, to which you have failed to respond.  All you've done is seem to take a very personally offended stance against me without actually adding any substance to your responses.

You seem to have misunderstood what I've tried to point out about customers' perception of value.  Of course, as a customer you don't tell someone what you're going to pay them to come and do work for you - although I've had a few proper charlies over the years who think they can, as I'm sure you have.  But different customers perceive different levels of value in different things, according to their own personal feelings.  They don't view the selection of available trades they could hire in from the point of view of a pre-defined "pay scale", nor do they take into account the amount of certification, training etc it takes.... all they're thinking of is what they are going to get out of it and judge the quoted price against that.

And that's why someone might be happy to hire in a decorator on a £230 day rate but they might wince if a plumber quoted them £180 a day.  The one major thing that's wrong with being self-employed is the customers; it would be much easier without them!

14 hours ago, Scully said:

I charge 150.00 a day, but that’s ‘grim up North’ rates

I've just had a quick comparison of house prices between Penrith and Swindon, using the humble old 3-bed semi as a yardstick.  Comparing similar properties it seems Cumbria is around the £200k mark whereas Wiltshire is circa £350k, which is 175% higher.  So you might be worth £260-odd a day down south!