Non toxic 410s

[Walker570]

Well it looks like the game dealers are winning the debate as I have been told another estate will only allow non lead shot next season because the game dealer says so.

Fortunately I load the majority of my 410s so this will just mean working up some alternatives with probably TSS and Bismuth the first contenders.  The grape vine also tells me at least one manufactuer intends bringing a bismuth load out for 410 later this year. The price per bird is rising and so will the price of a box of shells. 

This will probably effect the small gauge shooters more than 12s as the bismuth factory loads I have used have only been 16gr.  It will be interesting to see if I can work a load for alternative shot nearer the normal 19gr I shoot with lead.  In size 5 which is what is offered it really only means another 3 or 4 shots so the proof of the pudding with be on pattern and penetration tests.  

 

[6.5x55SE]

Just my opinion if i was in your shoes I'd bulk order tss 9's from China ( willing to share my contact where I've ordered from ) as when i last ordered it was cheaper than Bismuth also a far far better shot than lead or Bismuth

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Just my opinion if i was in your shoes I'd bulk order tss 9's from China ( willing to share my contact where I've ordered from ) as when i last ordered it was cheaper than Bismuth also a far far better shot than lead or Bismuth

Do you use a standard plastic wad or is there one you could recommend for tss in  the 410 there maybe a problem with plastic wads on some shoots however if there forward thinking they maybe drop the fibre wad rule in favour of the non toxic shot 

[Down South]

I’ve seen data for tss in 3” cases for 410, 5/8 oz load. The draw back is the plastic wad you have to use. Bismuth is probably a better option, it’s just getting it to work for you. I favour 16 and 28 bore so going to have similar issues. Have tried Eley bismuth but not convinced by it’s performance in 16 bore.

[Smudger687]

Copper shot might be a (theoretical) alternative, it is, after all, only slightly less dense than bismuth, softer than the barrel so the plaswad isn't mandatory, and it's much more abundant than bismuth.

Problem will be sourcing the damn stuff and developing a load for it. 

 

[islandgun]

The man from NZ who very knowledgeably posted about tss on this forum, found that his barrels were being scored, haven't seen any post's lately. I loaded 7's for a twenty and was hugely impressed with it for geese and beyond my usual range for duck. Fibre shot cup for small bores and TSS would be my favoured option if they were available

Edited February 14, 2022 by islandgun

[Walker570]

Is a plastic wad esential for TSS then?  Hah!! We must have pressed almost at the same time, you answered my question. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Walker570

[islandgun]

1 minute ago, Walker570 said:

Is a plastic wad esential for TSS then?

I would say yes. Its very hard and dense. this is my understanding but would be happy to be proved wrong

[6.5x55SE]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Do you use a standard plastic wad or is there one you could recommend for tss in  the 410 there maybe a problem with plastic wads on some shoots however if there forward thinking they maybe drop the fibre wad rule in favour of the non toxic shot 

You can get TPS wad's which are suitable for steel and TSS shot . People make there own card/paper cup wads how i personally don't know again the only ones I've seen available for reloading have/are 12 bore and 10 bore personally used both successfully. I did ( no laughing now please ) as i use a 20 bore a lot . Cut a nitro card to suit ( tight fit ) 20 case then cut a double wrap of card from toilet roll .powder nitro card pushed double wrap of card into case 1oz steel shot crimp closed. Result 4 Greylag for 5 shots . A lot of messing about time consuming but it worked

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

You can get TPS wad's which are suitable for steel and TSS shot . People make there own card/paper cup wads how i personally don't know again the only ones I've seen available for reloading have/are 12 bore and 10 bore personally used both successfully. I did ( no laughing now please ) as i use a 20 bore a lot . Cut a nitro card to suit ( tight fit ) 20 case then cut a double wrap of card from toilet roll .powder nitro card pushed double wrap of card into case 1oz steel shot crimp closed. Result 4 Greylag for 5 shots . A lot of messing about time consuming but it worked

Thank you and well done with the recycling of the loo roll 👍

[Walker570]

6 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I would say yes. Its very hard and dense. this is my understanding but would be happy to be proved wrong

In that case why not use steel. Clay & Game indicate that it(TSS) is harder than steel but of course more expensive. At sensible 410 ranges..35-40yrds .... is there going to be a big difference in killing power.  Some old Eley Bismuth(4-5years ago) I had seemed to drop ducks within that range no problem and I am told bismuth has improved considerably in the last few years.  The price factor does not worry me but if we are trying to prevent plastic being thrown about the place then I would like to use fibre wads.

At least I have 8 months to get some shells sorted.

[Smiler23]

39 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Just my opinion if i was in your shoes I'd bulk order tss 9's from China ( willing to share my contact where I've ordered from ) as when i last ordered it was cheaper than Bismuth also a far far better shot than lead or Bismuth

Can only back up this, Boyd kindly passes on his contact to me, absolute dream to deal with, a very easy transaction with a very friendly individual. 10/10 service 👌

[6.5x55SE]

4 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Thank you and well done with the recycling of the loo roll 👍

No problems. Personally i can't see why biodegradable are available in all bore's for those that reload. Probably 11-12 years ago i bought some B&P biodegradable wad's both in 20 and 12 apparently stopped making them due to low sales oh they patterned superb dissolved in about 4-6 weeks

[6.5x55SE]

8 minutes ago, Smiler23 said:

Can only back up this, Boyd kindly passes on his contact to me, absolute dream to deal with, a very easy transaction with a very friendly individual. 10/10 service 👌

Thanks mate hope you have been putting it to good use 👍 I'd rather help than hinder also it pee's me off how we get our pants pulled down in the UK. Just one example have a look at USA prices and what cartridges are available in factory load's from .410 up to 10  in every type of shot you can mention and gone are the days of going to a American gun club buying cartridges at USA prices legally 😭

[islandgun]

10 hours ago, Walker570 said:

In that case why not use steel. Clay & Game indicate that it(TSS) is harder than steel but of course more expensive. At sensible 410 ranges..35-40yrds .... is there going to be a big difference in killing power.  Some old Eley Bismuth(4-5years ago) I had seemed to drop ducks within that range no problem and I am told bismuth has improved considerably in the last few years.  The price factor does not worry me but if we are trying to prevent plastic being thrown about the place then I would like to use fibre wads.

At least I have 8 months to get some shells sorted.

I wouldn't use steel 7's or 9's for greylag. TSS travels further and hits harder, patterns in a 410 would hold better

[Walker570]

4 hours ago, islandgun said:

I wouldn't use steel 7's or 9's for greylag. TSS travels further and hits harder, patterns in a 410 would hold better

Thanks for that.  We will have to see if any manufactuers come out with an alternative wad to plastic as many estates are now asking for fibre only. There is no doubt this next season is going to be interesting .

[London Best]

On 14/02/2022 at 21:21, Down South said:

Have tried Eley bismuth but not convinced by it’s performance in 16 bore.

All in the mind. Bismuth works just fine.

[Old farrier]

21 minutes ago, London Best said:

All in the mind. Bismuth works just fine.

Well I’m not so sure about that can’t comment on the 16 bore 

but in the 410 tss knocks it into a three corner hat 

[London Best]

Just now, Old farrier said:

Well I’m not so sure about that can’t comment on the 16 bore 

but in the 410 tss knocks it into a three corner hat 

Just so, but isn’t tss MORE effective than lead.

The fact the man is using a 16 bore is of no consequence. I have used bismuth in twelves and twenty’s and it works just fine, as I am sure you will have done yourself.

[Walker570]

27 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Well I’m not so sure about that can’t comment on the 16 bore 

but in the 410 tss knocks it into a three corner hat 

Yep but destroys barrels without a wad and plastic wads are now also being banned.  I support what London Best says as I have used 16g Eley Bismuth in my 410 and it flattened ducks out to 35yrds no problem. Now I am led to understand the present day bidmuth has improved a lot on the early stuff.

[islandgun]

4 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Yep but destroys barrels without a wad and plastic wads are now also being banned.  I support what London Best says as I have used 16g Eley Bismuth in my 410 and it flattened ducks out to 35yrds no problem. Now I am led to understand the present day bidmuth has improved a lot on the early stuff.

It occurred to me that you could have a few TSS stashed away [given no ban on wad] and have a day with your 410, on those very high birds that were being talked about on here, a year or two ago ..👍

[Old farrier]

59 minutes ago, London Best said:

Just so, but isn’t tss MORE effective than lead.

The fact the man is using a 16 bore is of no consequence. I have used bismuth in twelves and twenty’s and it works just fine, as I am sure you will have done yourself.

Yes I have and price for price tss wins

also found steel in the right load better than bismuth 

the 410 is different to both the 12 …20 with the 16 in between

from trial the small shot tss works better and is probably more effective in the 410 than lead although  not a affordable substitute 

the whole thing is balanced upon the appropriate fibre/bio wad for the game shooter 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Yep but destroys barrels without a wad and plastic wads are now also being banned.  I support what London Best says as I have used 16g Eley Bismuth in my 410 and it flattened ducks out to 35yrds no problem. Now I am led to understand the present day bidmuth has improved a lot on the early stuff.

Do you mean plastic wads are banned on your particular shoot? 

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Do you mean plastic wads are banned on your particular shoot? 

Yes, on two of them at the moment and I can see it spreading.

 

It really needs for manufactuers to come up with a suitable non plastic shot cup which will breakdown in the environment.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Walker570

[Down South]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

All in the mind. Bismuth works just fine.

Of course bismuth works, not sure if it’s as effective as lead or steel and certainly far more expensive. Steel is good but in smaller less popular calibres the plastic wad is the downer. 

 

2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I have used 16g Eley Bismuth in my 410 and it flattened ducks out to 35yrds no problem.

There’s you cartridge then!