Ottawa police chief resigns

[Vince Green]

7 hours ago, Walker570 said:

Yes, it's a free country.. Causing damage I do not support, but have not seen any from the Truckers so far like the ones you name including Black Lives Matter.

There is no such thing as a free country. There are laws and people must abide by them

[serrac]

21 minutes ago, ordnance said:

 

If you cause gridlock like that, you are going to cause disruption to residents like it or not. As for ( reasonable requests from residents to allow them access to their properties ) Resident's should not have to ask anyone for permission to freely go to and from their properties. 

I refer to my previous post. 

 

My comment had nothing to do with permission.
We have a neighbour in the next street who has builders working on an extension.  They park several vans in our street (a cul-de-sac) most days.  On one occasion they were double parked and my wife needed to get her car out.  I asked them to move a van and they did which allowed her to pass.  Permission didn't come into it.

Please post when you see any news about the Police who trampled the unresisting protestors being disciplined or charged

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

There is no such thing as a free country. There are laws and people must abide by them

I’m always uncomfortable with the approach that no law can be wrong and must be followed because it’s the law. 

Yes, there’s has to be democracy and a rule of law but it took a law breaking woman to throw herself under a horse to get women the vote and equal rights. Men in love with men were chemically castrated and imprisoned in the name of the law and it wasn’t that long ago people willingly and blindly followed the rules and the law of the land in Germany and that didn’t end too well.

If we are on the subject of the law, we have to acknowledge that the Canadian government acting under ‘emergency powers’ in democratically questionable circumstances have gone 85% of the way to imposing martial law. 

There’s always been the rhetorical question as to what’s better a written constitution or no written constitution. In the circumstances to hand I can see that a written constitution and guaranteed minimum freedoms might not be such a bad idea. 

[ordnance]

Quote

My comment had nothing to do with permission.
We have a neighbour in the next street who has builders working on an extension.  They park several vans in our street (a cul-de-sac) most days.  On one occasion they were double parked and my wife needed to get her car out.  I asked them to move a van and they did which allowed her to pass.  Permission didn't come into it.

Please post when you see any news about the Police who trampled the unresisting protestors being disciplined or charged

Ok they shouldn't have to ( have to make reasonable requests to allow them access to their properties ) unlike the truckers the builders were not causing deliberate disruption.  

Quote

In fairness, he was democratically elected and the Canadians have the leader they wanted and deserve.

Exactly if Canadians don't like what he is doing or what laws the police are enforcing, then they can choose not to vote for him. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by ordnance

[Mungler]

Well, the Canadian Parliament was in the middle of debating the fiercely contested Emergency Powers Act when Trudeau suspended Parliament. Very democratic, not.

I happen to think it’s hilarious that the most woke and left wing leader Canada has ever seen is acting like the worst dictator. Mind you, you go that far left / or right and you end up in the same place - there was a fag paper between Hitler and Stalin for ‘best homicidal mad dictator’ and whilst the educational and history texts are written by the left leaning, history tends to underplay that Stalin’s body count dwarfed Hitler’s. I digress.

In other news the world is also watching the exodus from LA, San Francisco and Seattle to right leaning states like Florida and Texas. I wonder how much further the Canadians have to fall into a woke dictatorship before something snaps.

Incidentally, makes you grateful to live free in good ‘ol blighty.

Who would seriously want to be living in Canada, Oz or NZ right now?

Makes you also wonder what our lives would be like right now if someone like Corbyn was at the wheel.

Be grateful for the small mercies I say.

[ordnance]

15 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Well, the Canadian Parliament was in the middle of debating the fiercely contested Emergency Powers Act when Trudeau suspended Parliament. Very democratic, not.

I happen to think it’s hilarious that the most woke and left wing leader Canada has ever seen is acting like the worst dictator. Mind you, you go that far left / or right and you end up in the same place - there was a fag paper between Hitler and Stalin for ‘best homicidal mad dictator’ and whilst the educational and history texts are written by the left leaning, history tends to underplay that Stalin’s body count dwarfed Hitler’s. I digress.

In other news the world is also watching the exodus from LA, San Francisco and Seattle to right leaning states like Florida and Texas. I wonder how much further the Canadians have to fall into a woke dictatorship before something snaps.

Incidentally, makes you grateful to live free in good ‘ol blighty.

Who would seriously want to be living in Canada, Oz or NZ right now?

Makes you also wonder what our lives would be like right now if someone like Corbyn was at the wheel.

Be grateful for the small mercies I say.

I was going to post earlier its only a mater of time before the Nazis are brought into it, you have managed to bring in both Stalin and Hitler🥱 🙄 If Trudeau did what you say then i assume it was legal under the law / rules in Canada, not the unlawful actions of a dictator.

[39TDS]

I believe several barristers have claimed Trudeau's actions are in fact unlawful as are some of the actions taken by police.

I don't think anyone can say it is not government overreach at best. 

ps. Trudeau himself was the one to bring Nazis into it, even more stupidly of him was that he was defending his actions to a Jewish lady at the time. Hasn't apologised for that yet.

[ordnance]

5 minutes ago, 39TDS said:

I believe several barristers have claimed Trudeau's actions are in fact unlawful as are some of the actions taken by police.

I don't think anyone can say it is not government overreach at best. 

ps. Trudeau himself was the one to bring Nazis into it, even more stupidly of him was that he was defending his actions to a Jewish lady at the time. Hasn't apologised for that yet.

Then the courts will have to decide if his actions were illegal, and voters can decide if they want him there or not. Not options you have in a dictatorship. 

[Dave-G]

I'm as concerned about civil rights as most other people but disgusted about the double standards some are supporting here: It seems OK for a huge mob of truckers with an agenda to break the law and impinge peoples right of way but their supporters with an agenda bleat about authorities attempting to restore the roads might be stretching their remit in desperation.

They should find other ways and places to protest - like for example picket parliaments and government buildings, refuse to work and park up their lorries in government car parks and gateways, swamp their websites etc. I'm sure there must be many other ways to more directly affect those offending them rather than the innocent general tax paying public.

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, ordnance said:

Then the courts will have to decide if his actions were illegal, and voters can decide if they want him there or not. Not options you have in a dictatorship. 

You’re not getting the whole emergency powers / martial law and suspended Parliament bit, and of course the next Canadian general election is October 2025.

Imagine, it’s the week after a general election and Boris / Starmer passes emergency legislation and martial law under a blanket of fear and BBC spread misinformation (which soon enough dispells in other countries) and then, in the middle of parliament discussing and further voting on whether the state of martial law should continue, Boris / Starmer pirogues / suspends Parliament for ‘safety reasons’.

None of this is in any manifesto which any voter actually voted on.

Do bear in mind that these emergency laws are not trifling and aren’t about the EPC rating of your average loft. They affect your free choices - what you can do, where you can go, who you can see, when, and how you can earn a living (which for you is now restricted).

You, with lots of friends, a full life, financial commitments and people (work and family) who want to / need to see you, are miffed at having your basic civil liberties unjustly squashed. A general election is years away and so you protest. You are then (under more emergency powers magicked up in under a state of emergency because of a global emergency that no longer exists anywhere else in the world and all the while in front of a parliament that has been suspended) are threatened with losing your children, your home and your livelihood because you protested for the return of what you saw as your basic inalienable human rights.

In the background, the purported global emergency that ushered in this martial law has now well and truly and unquestionably unravelled and no longer exists. 

Last point (and I know this is a stretch but it’s real because I can see it happening if another covid variant surfaces), what if Trudeau (under a growing self imposed state of emergency) suspends the general election scheduled for 2025 or passes a law that anyone previously protesting against his imposed martial law has now forfeit the ability to vote in the next general election (as well as having their children taken off them by the state and losing their jobs and homes)?

It was said before but Churchill said it best ‘Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it’. Civil liberties when lost (even temporarily) rarely return whole again.

The post mortem in 12 / 24 months time is going to be fascinating.

.

EDIT

Got to love a bit of Tucker…
 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Mungler

[Nuke]

12 hours ago, serrac said:

I'd tell the truckers they are free to refuse the vaccine if they so choose with no negative consequences to their ability to earn a living or go about their other lawful business.

What will happen the next time when something more deadly comes along? You should be allowed to kill as many as possible without consequence?

Stop acting like covid wasn't really serious now that it is more or less over. The strain put on the healthcare systems have been extreme and it will take years to get back to normal.

Many, many people will die, unnessesary, in the coming years because they were not diagnosed in time due to unvaccinated people filling up the hospital beds and keeping the personell from their regular work.

/M

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, Nuke said:

What will happen the next time when something more deadly comes along? You should be allowed to kill as many as possible without consequence?

Stop acting like covid wasn't really serious now that it is more or less over. The strain put on the healthcare systems have been extreme and it will take years to get back to normal.

Many, many people will die, unnessesary, in the coming years because they were not diagnosed in time due to unvaccinated people filling up the hospital beds and keeping the personell from their regular work.

/M

People believe what they want to believe.

This is from the Australian equivalent of their ONS and I mention it only because all the country specific stats say the same thing across the world:

“The median age for those who died from COVID-19 was 83.7 years (81.2 years for males, 86.0 years for females)" (In 2019, median age for all deaths in Australia was 78 for males and 84 for females)”.

Like I said, the post mortem on the whole ‘Covid thing’ will take time to come out and will take people a long time to digest.

[oowee]

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

 Mind you, you go that far left / or right and you end up in the same place - there was a fag paper between Hitler and Stalin for ‘best homicidal mad dictator’ and whilst the educational and history texts are written by the left leaning, history tends to underplay that Stalin’s body count dwarfed Hitler’s. I digress.

 

Hitler (WW2) 71-80m

Stalin 20m 

[Mungler]

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

Hitler (WW2) 71-80m

Stalin 20m 

 

I was measuring deaths to own populace.

Yes WW2 was down to Hitler, but do you roll in the deaths from Hiroshima and Nagasaki under that same umbrella for example?

Indeed, we should add Chairman Mao to that list too - he barely gets a look in in the Western history books.

 

[serrac]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

What will happen the next time when something more deadly comes along? You should be allowed to kill as many as possible without consequence?

And your evidence that significant numbers of people died due to the unjabbed being unjabbed is where?

The vaccine was non-sterilising and did nothing to prevent covid spreading throughout the population - in fact there's copious data to show the vaccinated were more likely to catch and spread the virus.

One example:  The case rate among the unvaccinated is lower than every category of the vaccinated:
https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

Stop acting like covid wasn't really serious now that it is more or less over. The strain put on the healthcare systems have been extreme and it will take years to get back to normal.

And your evidence that the unjabbed were responsible for the strain put on the healthcare systems is where?
Again the difference between hospital admissions between jabbed and unjabbed is not statistically significant.
(And because the unjabbed are a smaller proportion of the population their impact on the health service would be correspondingly less)


 

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

Many, many people will die, unnessesary, in the coming years because they were not diagnosed in time due to unvaccinated people filling up the hospital beds and keeping the personell from their regular work.

/M

It wasn't the unvaccinated filling up the hospital beds, the proportion of vaccinated people in hospital rose roughly in line with the rollout of the vaccine.

Many, many people will die unnecessarily because an experimental gene therapy was rushed through testing and imposed on an unsuspecting public in the guise of a "safe and effective" vaccine.

https://rairfoundation.com/cover-up-dod-silent-after-whistleblowers-expose-covid-vaccine-injuries-in-military/
 

[Vince Green]

11 hours ago, Mungler said:

I’m always uncomfortable with the approach that no law can be wrong and must be followed because it’s the law. 

Yes, there’s has to be democracy and a rule of law but it took a law breaking woman to throw herself under a horse to get women the vote asaying nd equal rights. Men in love with men were chemically castrated and imprisoned in the name of the law and it wasn’t that long ago people willingly and blindly followed the rules and the law of the land in Germany and that didn’t end too well.

If we are on the subject of the law, we have to acknowledge that the Canadian government acting under ‘emergency powers’ in democratically questionable circumstances have gone 85% of the way to imposing martial law. 

There’s always been the rhetorical question as to what’s better a written constitution or no written constitution. In the circumstances to hand I can see that a written constitution and guaranteed minimum freedoms might not be such a bad idea. 

If you dont like a law there are ways to get it changed, You can have a peaceful demonstration. Breaking the law and then flouting is not democracy in action, its anarchy.

In America, and Canada by default, not being vaccinated is a matcho thing. Real men dont get jabbed. So they are not really arguing from a position of having a good case.  

[udderlyoffroad]

Deary me, some people on this thread should've paid more attention at school.

Rosa Parks was breaking the law - should she have just gone to the back of the bus and 'protested lawfully'?

We are dealing with a similar curtailment of civil liberties as segregation here, only it applies to the whole population, not just a minority.  Who the hell are we, for the most part in England and thus no longer subject to many restrictions, to tell Canadians that they can't enjoy the same liberties?

Anyone who seriously thinks ****-eau has stayed within his democratic mandate is probably not too keen on democracy anyway.

As for this suggestion that they should 'protest without causing disruption' - really give your heads a wobble, that isn't protest. 

13 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

In America, and Canada by default, not being vaccinated is a matcho thing. Real men dont get jabbed. So they are not really arguing from a position of having a good case.  

Broad brush much?  There is not a single thing correct in that statement, you could at least have prefaced it with 'in my opinion'.

[serrac]

22 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You can have a peaceful demonstration.

Can you give us some examples where a peaceful demonstration has brought about significant change in government policy in the current pandemic?

By the way the demonstrations in Ottawa were overwhelmingly peaceful - at least until parking a lorry became an act of violence, as were those in Australia, but both did nothing more than cause the ruling class to break out the jack-boots.

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Rosa Parks was breaking the law - should she have just gone to the back of the bus and 'protested lawfully'?

.

Rosa Parks most certainly didn't break the law. She refused to ride the bus and others followed. The embargo spread driving the bus companies into financial difficulties. In the end it was the bus companies that told the Governor he would have to change the law 

[Dave-G]

I guess there wasn't enough political agenda mileage to simply collectively refuse the jab and gather in a park on hunger strike to show their strength of commitment.

Desperate methods have been deployed to clear the desperate illegal methods of activists IMO. I wonder how many transport firms have been decimated by their drivers.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Dave-G

[udderlyoffroad]

16 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Rosa Parks most certainly didn't break the law

Stuff and nonsense. Per the NPS website:

Quote

Over the years, she had repeatedly disobeyed bus segregation regulations. Once, she even had been put off a bus for her defiance.

She broke the law, or at the very least bus company conditions of carriage regs, which spurred others into boycotts.

In any case, the point remains, the civil rights movement protests broke many laws on the path to desegregation, just or not.  What they did not do was advocate violence.

And if you don't think restrictions imposed on Canadians are similar in their egregiousness to segregation, then quite frankly I don't care, I have no wish to convince you or anyone else otherwise.  Agree to differ and all that.

But, let me just say this: What is happening in Canada would be roundly condemned in the media by all and sundry were Turdsack of the other political persuasion.  Actually, he wouldn't even be in office, the media wouldn't have let him get that far, because he blacked up repeatedly at fancy dress parties....not in the 1950s but in the early 2000s. 

[Mungler]

We have seen the most outrageous infringements of civil liberty under the banner of fear and Covid - whilst everyone can pick apart the stats at their leisure (and believe you me when everyone wakes up to the stage hypnosis there will be hell to pay) it does worry me how so many people went along with it, parked any form of objective enquiry and all because someone on the telly and with a clipboard said so. 

We can come back to these threads in the months to come. By then everyone will wonder where 2 years of their lives and all their money went.

[ordnance]

14 hours ago, Mungler said:

You’re not getting the whole emergency powers / martial law and suspended Parliament bit, and of course the next Canadian general election is October 2025.

Imagine, it’s the week after a general election and Boris / Starmer passes emergency legislation and martial law under a blanket of fear and BBC spread misinformation (which soon enough dispells in other countries) and then, in the middle of parliament discussing and further voting on whether the state of martial law should continue, Boris / Starmer pirogues / suspends Parliament for ‘safety reasons’.

None of this is in any manifesto which any voter actually voted on.

Do bear in mind that these emergency laws are not trifling and aren’t about the EPC rating of your average loft. They affect your free choices - what you can do, where you can go, who you can see, when, and how you can earn a living (which for you is now restricted).

You, with lots of friends, a full life, financial commitments and people (work and family) who want to / need to see you, are miffed at having your basic civil liberties unjustly squashed. A general election is years away and so you protest. You are then (under more emergency powers magicked up in under a state of emergency because of a global emergency that no longer exists anywhere else in the world and all the while in front of a parliament that has been suspended) are threatened with losing your children, your home and your livelihood because you protested for the return of what you saw as your basic inalienable human rights.

In the background, the purported global emergency that ushered in this martial law has now well and truly and unquestionably unravelled and no longer exists. 

Last point (and I know this is a stretch but it’s real because I can see it happening if another covid variant surfaces), what if Trudeau (under a growing self imposed state of emergency) suspends the general election scheduled for 2025 or passes a law that anyone previously protesting against his imposed martial law has now forfeit the ability to vote in the next general election (as well as having their children taken off them by the state and losing their jobs and homes)?

It was said before but Churchill said it best ‘Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it’. Civil liberties when lost (even temporarily) rarely return whole again.

The post mortem in 12 / 24 months time is going to be fascinating.

.

EDIT

Got to love a bit of Tucker…
 

 

True if you like idiots like Tucker Carlson. 

 

Quote

are threatened with losing your children, your home and your livelihood because you protested for the return of what you saw as your basic inalienable human rights.

Its not because they are protesting, its because of their illegal actions. 

Edited February 21, 2022 by ordnance

[ordnance]

10 hours ago, serrac said:

And your evidence that significant numbers of people died due to the unjabbed being unjabbed is where?

The vaccine was non-sterilising and did nothing to prevent covid spreading throughout the population - in fact there's copious data to show the vaccinated were more likely to catch and spread the virus.

One example:  The case rate among the unvaccinated is lower than every category of the vaccinated:
https://publichealthscotland.scot/media/11223/22-01-19-covid19-winter_publication_report.pdf

And your evidence that the unjabbed were responsible for the strain put on the healthcare systems is where?
Again the difference between hospital admissions between jabbed and unjabbed is not statistically significant.
(And because the unjabbed are a smaller proportion of the population their impact on the health service would be correspondingly less)


 

It wasn't the unvaccinated filling up the hospital beds, the proportion of vaccinated people in hospital rose roughly in line with the rollout of the vaccine.

Many, many people will die unnecessarily because an experimental gene therapy was rushed through testing and imposed on an unsuspecting public in the guise of a "safe and effective" vaccine.

https://rairfoundation.com/cover-up-dod-silent-after-whistleblowers-expose-covid-vaccine-injuries-in-military/
 

Don't waste the opportunity to get in your antivaccine rubbish, from the usual conspiracy sites. 

 Why mRNA vaccines aren't gene therapies

Quote

Many, many people will die unnecessarily because an experimental gene therapy was rushed through testing and imposed on an unsuspecting public in the guise of a "safe and effective" vaccine.

• Quote

  Overall, we rate RAIR Foundation USA extreme right-biased and questionable based on the promotion of propaganda and conspiracy theories, poor sourcing, and failed fact checks. Further, they lack transparency, indicating they are an imposter foundation website.

   

Edited February 21, 2022 by ordnance

[ordnance]

14 hours ago, Mungler said:

People believe what they want to believe.

This is from the Australian equivalent of their ONS and I mention it only because all the country specific stats say the same thing across the world:

“The median age for those who died from COVID-19 was 83.7 years (81.2 years for males, 86.0 years for females)" (In 2019, median age for all deaths in Australia was 78 for males and 84 for females)”.

Like I said, the post mortem on the whole ‘Covid thing’ will take time to come out and will take people a long time to digest.

And ?