Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Mice! said:

just a case of who blinks first, Germany,  France or the UK I don't see it being us.

I agree it won't be us; we had little dependence on Russian gas anyway, so whilst it will be expensive, it should be there at a high proportion of normal levels.

France also has relatively little dependence on Russian gas, having a large nuclear generating capacity.  However - they are not noted for being 'steadfast'.

Germany has been very stupid and shut (or is shutting) their nuclear capacity (and for totally ridiculous reasons) and coal generating capacity (for slightly better reasons as they have lignite coal which is very dirty).  They have never invested in liquid gas terminals, and rely on gas through pipelines for much of their industry and generating capacity.  They are therefore badly exposed - but Germans on the whole are much more 'steadfast' than the French.

Russia will not simply 'turn on the gas again' for a few concessions.  They have discovered the true power of the hand they hold and will use it ruthlessly.  In the longer term, Europe can eliminate dependence on Russian gas but it will take time, and so Russia has to make use of the power they have before that happens.  Making concessions to Russia may release a trickle of gas - but they will keep the supply really tight to hold the price sky high and capitalise on the power they have gained through (mainly) Germany's foolishness.

[Mice!]

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

agree it won't be us; we had little dependence on Russian gas anyway, so whilst it will be expensive, it should be there at a high proportion of normal levels.

Which is why our bills going up makes no sense?

7 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Russia will not simply 'turn on the gas again' for a few concessions.  They have discovered the true power of the hand they hold and will use it ruthlessly.  In the longer term, Europe can eliminate dependence on Russian gas but it will take time, and so Russia has to make use of the power they have before that happens.  Making concessions to Russia may release a trickle of gas - but they will keep the supply really tight to hold the price sky high and capitalise on the power they have gained through (mainly) Germany's foolishness.

Totally agree,  the sanctions placed on Russia will just come back to bite Europe,  I can't see how anything can be done this year so Russia will exploit the situation.

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Which is why our bills going up makes no sense?

We don't get much piped in gas, but we use a lot of LNG (liquified natural gas) which has to be bought at world prices and shipped (and there is a gross shortage of shipping capacity).  We are actually receiving LNG on behalf of Germany, converting it back to gas and piping to to them as they (very foolishly) have almost no capacity to import LNG, being totally dependant on pipelines.

Edited September 6, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

Then comes the cut off of supply on Nordstream 1 under the ruse of maintenance, then a leak etc. The Russians have now helpfully confirmed that they turned the tap of Nordstream 1 off deliberately and to get back at Europe.

This isn’t about whether Russia should or could have turned the tap off. This is about blindly accepting Russian ‘news’ aka propaganda hook line and sinker - and you did and you were wrong. 

More Kremlin propaganda.

https://www.nord-stream.com/media/news/press_releases/en/2016/08/annual-maintenance-work-successfully-completed_20160818.pdf

https://www.worldpipelines.com/project-news/01092017/annual-maintenance-works-shuts-down-nord-stream-pipeline/

https://www.nord-stream.com/media/news/press_releases/en/2018/07/annual-maintenance-works-successfully-completed_503_20180730.pdf

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/annual-maintenance-works-of-nord-stream-pipeline-scheduled-for-july-2019-505/

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/annual-maintenance-works-of-nord-stream-pipeline-scheduled-for-july-2020-514/

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/nord-stream-pipeline-resumes-gas-transmission-after-completion-of-maintenance-works-520/

Ooh look, the Kremlin has altered the internet to show the last 5 times Nordstream was shut down at the whim of Putin to teach the west a lesson, under the guise of fake annual maintenance.
And they dont even need those turbines to send the gas under high pressure 800 miles, they probably use human slaves on treadmills.

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

The FT article has not confirmed what you said all those pages ago when Russia first started to interfere with supply - you remember, where you said that it was perfectly normal maintenance and they wouldn’t turn the tap off because it would affect their oil revenue 😀 

It confirmed what I said about gas coming in, someone said there was NO gas, it appears that there is.
The FT link clearly states the G7 incentive to cap Russian petro products, is designed to starve them of cash for the war effort.
So when Russia states in response, that Nordstream wont be sending more gas, everyone loses their collective **** and starts calling Russia energy terrorists or something !
Why? Theyve completed the task they set out to do , deprive Russia of funds ! 
What exactly is the problem ?
The problem is , they still wanted the gas , they just wanted to pay less for it , it was never going to starve them of money, not by any margin anyway.
Plus we're told that wholesale energy prices need parity across the world, thats why we are all paying so much for energy now, but somehow they think they can buy gas off Russia for considerably less than wholesale... Does that mean we get cheaper gas , of course not , it means the energy oil companies get more profit... And Russia sells more gas.
The fact that Russia said no , was understandable , and very predictable.

The whole business of countries buying Russian petro products, while at the same time telling the world how much we need to sanction them , is a murky one.

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Based on some of his responses here, I am starting to doubt that to be honest. It's all gone a bit mental imho, certainly some of the posts have gone too far...

Of course they have, Im actually surprised the threads not been locked because of them.

Reaching for the jar of insults, and accusing people who dont agree with you of being 'mental' is cheap , playground rhetoric.
This is a discussion forum , we arent going to DO anything, except maybe chuck a few £ in the tin.
Its a bit sad when a bunch of mature adults with years of knowledge and experience, cant find some common ground and discuss the subject , without resorting to insults, when some ones opinion differs.
Even worse , is when you are basically accused of 'working for the enemy' its silly , but also quite alarming that people actually think like that.

Mungler obviously feels strongly about it , and I respect that, but he seems to be reading things from me  I havent actually put, and drawing insinuations about my motives, that frankly beggar belief.
I still dont know whether hes joking about the dacha thing !
Anyway , its keeping Gordon entertained , so it cant all be bad 

[Rewulf]

27 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Russia will not simply 'turn on the gas again' for a few concessions.  They have discovered the true power of the hand they hold and will use it ruthlessly. 

I dont think theyve just discovered it , they knew it all along , but the revenue that petro brings in, is essential to them.

$1 billion a day coming in sounds a lot , but some western analysts have estimated the war in Ukraine costs $350 million a day.
Then theres the very expensive issue of replacing all that lost war material, preferably with some gear that works better.

Personally , I think the G7 price cap thing has rattled Russia, and theyve resorted to a shock tactic of squeezing the gas , I dont believe its sustainable for them in the long term, However the long term is a matter in itself , if the EU is moving away from Russian petro dependency , that revenue streams days are numbered anyway.

Its a game of bluff, the EU needs gas , Russia needs money, but who needs what more ?
Its how much money Russia has in the bank vs how much gas is in storage or able to source elsewhere.

[mchughcb]

Siemens outsources its maintenance to Canada. That big imposter of a leader Trudeau says they will not return the turbine as it is under sanctions. However long he delayed it they sent it back. Now there are more that need maintenance.

If the EU want's to sanction Russia and doesn't want to buy the gas or oil fine. The Russian's will sell to anybody that wants to buy it. Its not like 3.2B chinese and indians aren't a ready made market. BRIC is way bigger than the EU.

 

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I dont think theyve just discovered it , they knew it all along , but the revenue that petro brings in, is essential to them.

$1 billion a day coming in sounds a lot , but some western analysts have estimated the war in Ukraine costs $350 million a day.
Then theres the very expensive issue of replacing all that lost war material, preferably with some gear that works better.

Personally , I think the G7 price cap thing has rattled Russia, and theyve resorted to a shock tactic of squeezing the gas , I dont believe its sustainable for them in the long term, However the long term is a matter in itself , if the EU is moving away from Russian petro dependency , that revenue streams days are numbered anyway.

Its a game of bluff, the EU needs gas , Russia needs money, but who needs what more ?
Its how much money Russia has in the bank vs how much gas is in storage or able to source elsewhere.

How much more war material can the EU afford to throw into the front line to get ground up before that's it they couldn't defend themselves against some angry Turks or Iranians. My guess is not too much more. 

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Siemens outsources its maintenance to Canada. That big imposter of a leader Trudeau says they will not return the turbine as it is under sanctions. However long he delayed it they sent it back. Now there are more that need maintenance.

If the EU want's to sanction Russia and doesn't want to buy the gas or oil fine. The Russian's will sell to anybody that wants to buy it. Its not like 3.2B chinese and indians aren't a ready made market. BRIC is way bigger than the EU.

 

How much more war material can the EU afford to throw into the front line to get ground up before that's it they couldn't defend themselves against some angry Turks or Iranians. My guess is not too much more. 

Russia still has to get products to that market.

Secondary sanctions will curb sales to the East and the latest price cap for oil will be part of that process.

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

How much more war material can the EU afford to throw into the front line to get ground up before that's it they couldn't defend themselves against some angry Turks or Iranians. My guess is not too much more. 

This is the big question, whilst I suspect a lot of equipment sent to Ukraine was pretty dated/mothballed stuff, it still has a value on the open (arms) market.
This likely cost taxpayers many billions, yet Ukraine , who are literally living on western handouts (loans) have no means of paying for them now, or in the near future.
If the war is costing Russia $350 million a day , how much is it costing Ukraine, western equipment is generally a lot more expensive?
Those piles of NLAWS you see piled up in bombed out houses, while Ukrainian soldiers are sat around , are $100,000 EACH. 
1 HARM missile $1 million a pop
A 30 year old Mig 29 $5-10 million.
The cheapest T72 $500,000 upwards

The US is 'gifting' 200 odd M113 APCs from the Vietnam era, no better than scrap on the modern battlefield, and probably costing more to transport to Ukraine than they are actually worth.
A useless gesture with hefty price tag Ill bet.

 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

Secondary sanctions will curb sales to the East and the latest price cap for oil will be part of that process.

The price cap is still theoretical and only applies to G7 nations.
Russia says they will not sell to them if they implement it, this will increase demand for other vendors, and push the price up.
EU countries more closely aligned to Russia will refuse to implement it, and theres a possibility of a veto of it happening at all.
The cap plan is ill thought out , and barely implementable , it will cause more aggro than it solves, but whats more interesting , is the total failure by any of the G7 to come up with any plan whatsoever for a truce/ceasefire/peace plan ?

Its like the only way to reach a conclusion for this war , is to beat Russia, but what if that isnt possible without the total destruction of Ukraine ?
How does that help Ukraine ?
I strongly suspect , in fact Im fairly positive , its not about helping Ukraine at all.

[Dave-G]

Russia is now onto a winner by selling less petro for a lot more money - while almost all of Europe faces massive heating, power and food shortages in the next few months. End result is all of Europe continent in meltdown.

My tinfoil hat is wondering if that what US has been manipulating all along.

[oowee]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The price cap is still theoretical and only applies to G7 nations.
Russia says they will not sell to them if they implement it, this will increase demand for other vendors, and push the price up.
EU countries more closely aligned to Russia will refuse to implement it, and theres a possibility of a veto of it happening at all.
The cap plan is ill thought out , and barely implementable , it will cause more aggro than it solves, but whats more interesting , is the total failure by any of the G7 to come up with any plan whatsoever for a truce/ceasefire/peace plan ?

Its like the only way to reach a conclusion for this war , is to beat Russia, but what if that isnt possible without the total destruction of Ukraine ?
How does that help Ukraine ?
I strongly suspect , in fact Im fairly positive , its not about helping Ukraine at all.

The suggestion is that the price cap will apply to all. Breach the cap and face sanctions. 

There is no winner in this war but it's only just started. 

4 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Russia is now onto a winner by selling less petro for a lot more money - while almost all of Europe faces massive heating, power and food shortages in the next few months. End result is all of Europe continent in meltdown.

My tinfoil hat is wondering if that what US has been manipulating all along.

Russia cannot maintain supply and has insufficient customers or transport to sell at the same volumes short to medium term

Next is tackling China.

[mchughcb]

Lol the EU is going to sanction BRIC?

450 million vs 3.5Billion? Who needs who here?

9 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

Russia is now onto a winner by selling less petro for a lot more money - while almost all of Europe faces massive heating, power and food shortages in the next few months. End result is all of Europe continent in meltdown.

My tinfoil hat is wondering if that what US has been manipulating all along.

Simple supply and demand. Only the supply thing is a politically imposed thing. Demand is always there.

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, mchughcb said:

Simple supply and demand. Only the supply thing is a politically imposed thing. Demand is always there.

 

At inflated prices .

 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

More Kremlin propaganda.

https://www.nord-stream.com/media/news/press_releases/en/2016/08/annual-maintenance-work-successfully-completed_20160818.pdf

https://www.worldpipelines.com/project-news/01092017/annual-maintenance-works-shuts-down-nord-stream-pipeline/

https://www.nord-stream.com/media/news/press_releases/en/2018/07/annual-maintenance-works-successfully-completed_503_20180730.pdf

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/annual-maintenance-works-of-nord-stream-pipeline-scheduled-for-july-2019-505/

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/annual-maintenance-works-of-nord-stream-pipeline-scheduled-for-july-2020-514/

https://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/nord-stream-pipeline-resumes-gas-transmission-after-completion-of-maintenance-works-520/

Ooh look, the Kremlin has altered the internet to show the last 5 times Nordstream was shut down at the whim of Putin to teach the west a lesson, under the guise of fake annual maintenance.
And they dont even need those turbines to send the gas under high pressure 800 miles, they probably use human slaves on treadmills.

It confirmed what I said about gas coming in, someone said there was NO gas, it appears that there is.
The FT link clearly states the G7 incentive to cap Russian petro products, is designed to starve them of cash for the war effort.
So when Russia states in response, that Nordstream wont be sending more gas, everyone loses their collective **** and starts calling Russia energy terrorists or something !
Why? Theyve completed the task they set out to do , deprive Russia of funds ! 
What exactly is the problem ?
The problem is , they still wanted the gas , they just wanted to pay less for it , it was never going to starve them of money, not by any margin anyway.
Plus we're told that wholesale energy prices need parity across the world, thats why we are all paying so much for energy now, but somehow they think they can buy gas off Russia for considerably less than wholesale... Does that mean we get cheaper gas , of course not , it means the energy oil companies get more profit... And Russia sells more gas.
The fact that Russia said no , was understandable , and very predictable.

The whole business of countries buying Russian petro products, while at the same time telling the world how much we need to sanction them , is a murky one.

Of course they have, Im actually surprised the threads not been locked because of them.

Reaching for the jar of insults, and accusing people who dont agree with you of being 'mental' is cheap , playground rhetoric.
This is a discussion forum , we arent going to DO anything, except maybe chuck a few £ in the tin.
Its a bit sad when a bunch of mature adults with years of knowledge and experience, cant find some common ground and discuss the subject , without resorting to insults, when some ones opinion differs.
Even worse , is when you are basically accused of 'working for the enemy' its silly , but also quite alarming that people actually think like that.

Mungler obviously feels strongly about it , and I respect that, but he seems to be reading things from me  I havent actually put, and drawing insinuations about my motives, that frankly beggar belief.
I still dont know whether hes joking about the dacha thing !
Anyway , its keeping Gordon entertained , so it cant all be bad 

 

1. Nordstream is 51% owned by Gazprom. If Nordstream want to tell the world about maintenance works I would be more interested to know what's actually going through the pipe (or not going though the pipe) and what everyone else has to say, given that Gazprom are running the show, and the Kremlin control Gazprom (at the risk of executives being thrown out of windows etc.).

2. no one has said "no gas coming in". Someone has said "no gas coming through Nordstream 1" [me], you said "no" and the Kremlin have kindly confirmed that to be true having had Gazprom cut the supply off to punish the EU - fair enough but absolutely not what you said, which was "Its an excellent revenue stream, its also not good business practice to suspend services within contract, makes you look... Untrustworthy".

3. Glad we can agree that the Russians both look and are actually untrustworthy.

4. Really, you should give MSM a go again for a bit more balance. The FT has always struck me as a good place to start.

 

 

 

[Mungler]

 

56 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

At inflated prices .

 

 

China buys cheap gas from Russia months and months ago (and when prices were low).

China is now facing an economic slow down and does not need the gas

China sells gas at current market rates, in excess of what they historically paid.

China will not be buying more / replacing said sold liquid gas (because they don't need it).

 

 

 

 

[mchughcb]

Whatever, gas and oil will always be in demand at least in the short, medium and long term.

People can only cut demand so much, for so long. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

1. Nordstream is 51% owned by Gazprom. If Nordstream want to tell the world about maintenance works I would be more interested to know what's actually going through the pipe (or not going though the pipe) and what everyone else has to say, given that Gazprom are running the show, and the Kremlin control Gazprom (at the risk of executives being thrown out of windows etc.).

Lets clarify this , are you saying that because Nordstream is 51% owned by Gazprom, then the press releases they put out are lies ?
I told you repeatedly, that the July shutdown happens every year for maintenance, you told me that was Kremlin propaganda.
Is there SCHEDULED maintenance every year or not ?

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

2. no one has said "no gas coming in". Someone has said "no gas coming through Nordstream 1" [me], you said "no" and the Kremlin have kindly confirmed that to be true having had Gazprom cut the supply off to punish the EU - fair enough but absolutely not what you said, which was "Its an excellent revenue stream, its also not good business practice to suspend services within contract, makes you look... Untrustworthy".

oowee

Members

 9k

From:Somerset

Posted Saturday at 09:11

  On 03/09/2022 at 08:07, ditchman said:

Is Germany completly cut off from Russian gas now ?............

Yes

This is the statement I answered with, I believe Yamal is still pumping gas.
For some reason this triggered you into a misguided and abusive rant, and all because you didnt read it properly.
If I was wrong, and I did say I wasnt sure, I asked if anyone could find clarification on it , as the only info I could find was from the Chinese media.
For this outrage , I was called a  flat earther, who finds 'gleeful' amusement in the destruction of Ukraine.

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

3. Glad we can agree that the Russians both look and are actually untrustworthy.

Wouldnt trust one as far as I could throw one, must have said it about 10 times now THAT I dont like them, yet you continue to have these fantasies about me being in their employment...I mean, REALLY ? 😄

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

4. Really, you should give MSM a go again for a bit more balance. The FT has always struck me as a good place to start.

Do you not think I use MSM ?
I dont have the FT , because I dont want to pay for it.
As far as balance goes ,you really need to get back to reality, If I could watch  English language Russian news (I cant) then it might provide some light amusement, a bit like Ukrainian news, which predicts victory shortly , and 'gleefully' reports highly dubious orc losses for tea time viewing, I can certainly see Ukrainian mercenaries being the top notch mercs of the future, as their kill ratio of 1 : 10 against Ivan, makes the elite special forces operatives the world over jealous.
But relying on MSM is putting all your eggs in one basket, the better option is a reliable neutral area like Indias WION.

image.webp

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

4. Really, you should give MSM a go again for a bit more balance. The FT has always struck me as a good place to start.

Funny how the first thing banned was Russia Today which did provide a bit of balance but.... Can't have the narrative put out by the MSM challenged because it would all fall apart.......and people might start asking awkward questions such as why the MSM are supporting people whose leaders and armed forces are ostensibly genocidal maniacs....

3 hours ago, Dave-G said:

 

My tinfoil hat is wondering if that what US has been manipulating all along.

Not so much the USA  people but the Neocon element of the leadership....

[Mungler]

8 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Lets clarify this , are you saying that because Nordstream is 51% owned by Gazprom, then the press releases they put out are lies ?
I told you repeatedly, that the July shutdown happens every year for maintenance, you told me that was Kremlin propaganda.
Is there SCHEDULED maintenance every year or not ?

 

oowee

Members

 9k

From:Somerset

Posted Saturday at 09:11

  On 03/09/2022 at 08:07, ditchman said:

Is Germany completly cut off from Russian gas now ?............

Yes

This is the statement I answered with, I believe Yamal is still pumping gas.
For some reason this triggered you into a misguided and abusive rant, and all because you didnt read it properly.
If I was wrong, and I did say I wasnt sure, I asked if anyone could find clarification on it , as the only info I could find was from the Chinese media.
For this outrage , I was called a  flat earther, who finds 'gleeful' amusement in the destruction of Ukraine.

Wouldnt trust one as far as I could throw one, must have said it about 10 times now THAT I dont like them, yet you continue to have these fantasies about me being in their employment...I mean, REALLY ? 😄

 

Do you not think I use MSM ?
I dont have the FT , because I dont want to pay for it.
As far as balance goes ,you really need to get back to reality, If I could watch  English language Russian news (I cant) then it might provide some light amusement, a bit like Ukrainian news, which predicts victory shortly , and 'gleefully' reports highly dubious orc losses for tea time viewing, I can certainly see Ukrainian mercenaries being the top notch mercs of the future, as their kill ratio of 1 : 10 against Ivan, makes the elite special forces operatives the world over jealous.
But relying on MSM is putting all your eggs in one basket, the better option is a reliable neutral area like Indias WION.

image.webp 178 B · 1 download

 

Gazprom's ownership of Nordstream is public record.

Yes they have an annual scheduled maintenance program, but unsurprisingly, under the auspices and "badge" of regular scheduled maintenance they have set about throttling supply this year, culminating in their simply cutting off supply to Nordstream 1.

My rant was triggered by you earlier statements that Russia was not at that time throttling supply and that the Russians wouldn't do that because it was economically unsound for them to do so and would mean their unilaterally breaching a supply arrangement which would make them look bad (like they care) etc.

That then lead to :

"Nordstream 1 closure and the continued throttling of gas supplies - do you think that is because of planned maintenance or because of any of the other Kremlin stated reasons, today’s one being a leak? Simple enough question."

It really isn't that difficult. Or rather it's only as difficult as you want to make it.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Funny how the first thing banned was Russia Today which did provide a bit of balance but.... Can't have the narrative put out by the MSM challenged because it would all fall apart.......and people might start asking awkward questions such as why the MSM are supporting people whose leaders and armed forces are ostensibly genocidal maniacs....

Not so much the USA  people but the Neocon element of the leadership....

Russia Today providing balance? Oh, that's a good one.

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Gazprom's ownership of Nordstream is public record.

Yes they have an annual scheduled maintenance program, but unsurprisingly, under the auspices and "badge" of regular scheduled maintenance they have set about throttling supply this year, culminating in their simply cutting off supply to Nordstream 1.

Im not disputing any of that, you said that annual maintenance was BS, and there was no good reason to shut the gas off in July.

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

My rant was triggered by you earlier statements that Russia was not at that time throttling supply and that the Russians wouldn't do that because it was economically unsound for them to do so and would mean their unilaterally breaching a supply arrangement which would make them look bad (like they care) etc.

When the July maintenance was started , most western MSM outlets insinuated that the whole outage wasnt anything to do with maintenance, and was Russia deliberately stopping gas to the west.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62121702
The prophets of doom went so far as to say the gas would never be coming back on, yet anyone who knew anything about Nordstream knew that this stoppage happened every year.

Then you have the whole debacle about the turbines, which you tried very hard to debunk, turbines schurbines ?
Do they , or do they not, need serviceable turbines to send the gas ?
I believe Canada is holding 5 of them , Germany 1.

The other aspect is whether or not Russia WANTS to sell gas to the EU ?
If , as you say , they dont care, why didnt they sanction their gas right from the start , and stop pumping it ?
Simple , they need to sell that gas, so throttling and stopping it they are , but do they really want to ?
No .  It IS economically unsound for them to do so.

18 minutes ago, Mungler said:

That then lead to :

"Nordstream 1 closure and the continued throttling of gas supplies - do you think that is because of planned maintenance or because of any of the other Kremlin stated reasons, today’s one being a leak? Simple enough question."

It really isn't that difficult. Or rather it's only as difficult as you want to make it.

It is difficult , because you merged all stoppages into one giant Kremlin conspiracy, so I tried as best as I could to answer.
The July stoppage was legit, as it was planned, and (for about the 20 th time ) HAPPENS EVERY YEAR.
The rest of them ? Who knows, except the Russians ? The turbines might really be an issue , the oil leak might really be an issue, or they might be a crock of lies to excuse the throttling or stopping of gas.
But do they NEED an excuse ? Of course not.
The fact is , listening to some hack saying they know the Russian are lying about it, when its obvious this is just biased opinion , does not make it a fact.
Anymore than Zelenskys rantings , or Putins explanations , are facts.

Stop trying to create enemies here to vent your anger at Putin/Russia, its not big or clever.

[Mungler]

50 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Im not disputing any of that, you said that annual maintenance was BS, and there was no good reason to shut the gas off in July.

When the July maintenance was started , most western MSM outlets insinuated that the whole outage wasnt anything to do with maintenance, and was Russia deliberately stopping gas to the west.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62121702
The prophets of doom went so far as to say the gas would never be coming back on, yet anyone who knew anything about Nordstream knew that this stoppage happened every year.

Then you have the whole debacle about the turbines, which you tried very hard to debunk, turbines schurbines ?
Do they , or do they not, need serviceable turbines to send the gas ?
I believe Canada is holding 5 of them , Germany 1.

The other aspect is whether or not Russia WANTS to sell gas to the EU ?
If , as you say , they dont care, why didnt they sanction their gas right from the start , and stop pumping it ?
Simple , they need to sell that gas, so throttling and stopping it they are , but do they really want to ?
No .  It IS economically unsound for them to do so.

It is difficult , because you merged all stoppages into one giant Kremlin conspiracy, so I tried as best as I could to answer.
The July stoppage was legit, as it was planned, and (for about the 20 th time ) HAPPENS EVERY YEAR.
The rest of them ? Who knows, except the Russians ? The turbines might really be an issue , the oil leak might really be an issue, or they might be a crock of lies to excuse the throttling or stopping of gas.
But do they NEED an excuse ? Of course not.
The fact is , listening to some hack saying they know the Russian are lying about it, when its obvious this is just biased opinion , does not make it a fact.
Anymore than Zelenskys rantings , or Putins explanations , are facts.

Stop trying to create enemies here to vent your anger at Putin/Russia, its not big or clever.

Its more frustration in arguing with Putin’s useful idiots. It’s just one of those things really. 

 

[Rewulf]

40 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Putin’s useful idiots.

Keep those insults coming.
Even when I try to point out where youve misunderstood, or where Ive not been that good in explaining my point.
Even when Ive pointed out your mistakes,  you resort to abuse ?

Who are these useful idiots, what is their motivation, money , power , dachas , the chance to sit on Vlads knee ?

More importantly , what is your motivation, what is about this particular war that gets you so angry ?

[Mungler]

You flatter yourself 😆😆

Angry, me, no, not at all. I am a total pragmatist as to what arguing on the internet actually achieves. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Angry, me, no, not at all. I am a total pragmatist as to what arguing on the internet actually achieves.

And yet you are, and yet you do. 

[mchughcb]

5 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Funny how the first thing banned was Russia Today which did provide a bit of balance but.... Can't have the narrative put out by the MSM challenged because it would all fall apart.......and people might start asking awkward questions such as why the MSM are supporting people whose leaders and armed forces are ostensibly genocidal maniacs....

Not so much the USA  people but the Neocon element of the leadership....

The simple fact that RT was banned here on the special news service,  then on YouTube makes me very suspicious. RT is on rutube but talk about censorship. When you cut out any alternative views you know something is rotten.