Mungler Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 12 hours ago, mchughcb said: Ukraine is now asking Georgia to open second front. Azerbaijan is now back into it with Armenia. Turkey, part of NATO will get involved. So is the UK going to help Azerbaijan and Georgia? Slava Cocainum! Let’s see if they ask for help first eh? What your missing in that post though is any commentary on how the invasion of Ukraine has been a massive boomerang for Putin, or do you believe that all events are still part of a grand plan he has? 😆 In other news we will recall the debate about free speech and democracy in Russia and the Russian media watch link to the panel TV show where there was the first open criticism of the invasion / war (albeit no direct mention of Putin or criticism of Putin because no one is that daft or prepared to avoid all windows forever more). Well here’s the follow up where another panelist reminds that any criticism gets you 15 days in jail and how chummy who spoke out last time will get his in due course. Now, nothing says free wheelin democracy and media like 15 days inside for expressing disagreement with your government 😆 https://twitter.com/nickTheWink/status/1570232251723677697?s=20&t=M4poMNVuNbUjpq00Q2emqA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 39 minutes ago, Mungler said: Well here’s the follow up where another panelist reminds that any criticism gets you 15 days in jail and how chummy who spoke out last time will get his in due course. Now, nothing says free wheelin democracy and media like 15 days inside for expressing disagreement with your government Whilst Julia Davis is a much respected hack, Im not sure her translation skills are all that hot. There is no 15 day sentence for criticising the war, there is a maximum sentence of 15 YEARS , that has never been handed down, whereas most of the time its a fine. One council member got 7 years, but his conditions were especially harsh due to the nature of claims, or someone really didnt like him much. Either way, you really need to check the facts on these channels before loosing off. Its interesting to note that Ukraine has a maximum sentence for avoiding the draft, of 5 years jail, and a total travel ban outside the country for men between 18 -60 . There appears to be no information available on penalties for criticising the war in Ukraine ? The word is , collaborators are executed , but alls fair in love , war and witch trials eh ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: Whilst Julia Davis is a much respected hack, Im not sure her translation skills are all that hot. There is no 15 day sentence for criticising the war, there is a maximum sentence of 15 YEARS , that has never been handed down, whereas most of the time its a fine. One council member got 7 years, but his conditions were especially harsh due to the nature of claims, or someone really didnt like him much. Either way, you really need to check the facts on these channels before loosing off. Its interesting to note that Ukraine has a maximum sentence for avoiding the draft, of 5 years jail, and a total travel ban outside the country for men between 18 -60 . There appears to be no information available on penalties for criticising the war in Ukraine ? The word is , collaborators are executed , but alls fair in love , war and witch trials eh ? It’s machine translated. 15 days or 15 years, it’s locking people up for questioning the government. I was merely pointing out that the reality of the situation in Russia is at odds with some of the claims already made in this thread. If you wish to start a new discussion about what does or does not happen in Ukraine then feel free. It’s a shame there’s a draft on in Ukraine, but that is because that country has been invaded. I can’t see though that the Ukrainian military is particularly in the doldrums or lacking in morale as might be the case with pressed conscription - as is the case for the Russian troops who appear to be more keen on aborting and going home than fighting in another country for someone unknown reason put forward by Putin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Mungler said: It’s machine translated. Its wrong though isnt it , what else is wrong ? 1 hour ago, Mungler said: 15 days or 15 years, it’s locking people up for questioning the government. Are we saying theres little difference between the two ? And again , that isnt the offence, the offence is maliciously spreading false info , aka subversion/treason, something you can be locked up for in this country. 1 hour ago, Mungler said: I was merely pointing out that the reality of the situation in Russia is at odds with some of the claims already made in this thread. How can we know the reality of the 'situation' when those who report on it cant even be bothered to check the translation of the purported 'true' information. Can you not see the problem here ? You can choose to believe nothing that comes out of Russia that doesnt suit your viewpoint, and believe everything that comes from Ukraine that does, but one of them is still showing video game footage and passing it off as genuine combat footage. Believe neither, youll be better off. 1 hour ago, Mungler said: If you wish to start a new discussion about what does or does not happen in Ukraine then feel free. If I want to find out whats happening in Ukraine , Ill stick to sources that arent obviously biased thank you. And UKRinform and TASS dont qualify as unbiased believe it or not. Plus if you think that western MSM has insights that arent directly influenced by some Ukrainian government ministry, then you are being very naive. 1 hour ago, Mungler said: It’s a shame there’s a draft on in Ukraine, but that is because that country has been invaded. I can’t see though that the Ukrainian military is particularly in the doldrums or lacking in morale as might be the case with pressed conscription - as is the case for the Russian troops who appear to be more keen on aborting and going home than fighting in another country for someone unknown reason put forward by Putin. I find it odd that the draft hasnt produced several million Ukrainian fighting men, that after 6 months, havent kicked those 200,000 Russian all the way back to the Kremlin...... Sorry 120,000 , theyve killed 80,000 and wounded another 200,000, plus destroyed or captured more tanks , planes and IFVs than Russia had in the first place 😜 You cant beat a bit of propaganda to provide a good accurate description of whats REALLY going on can you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 21 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Its wrong though isnt it , what else is wrong ? Are we saying theres little difference between the two ? And again , that isnt the offence, the offence is maliciously spreading false info , aka subversion/treason, something you can be locked up for in this country. How can we know the reality of the 'situation' when those who report on it cant even be bothered to check the translation of the purported 'true' information. Can you not see the problem here ? You can choose to believe nothing that comes out of Russia that doesnt suit your viewpoint, and believe everything that comes from Ukraine that does, but one of them is still showing video game footage and passing it off as genuine combat footage. Believe neither, youll be better off. If I want to find out whats happening in Ukraine , Ill stick to sources that arent obviously biased thank you. And UKRinform and TASS dont qualify as unbiased believe it or not. Plus if you think that western MSM has insights that arent directly influenced by some Ukrainian government ministry, then you are being very naive. I find it odd that the draft hasnt produced several million Ukrainian fighting men, that after 6 months, havent kicked those 200,000 Russian all the way back to the Kremlin...... Sorry 120,000 , theyve killed 80,000 and wounded another 200,000, plus destroyed or captured more tanks , planes and IFVs than Russia had in the first place 😜 You cant beat a bit of propaganda to provide a good accurate description of whats REALLY going on can you ? On the subject of the machine translation, it doesn't matter. In an earlier episode a liberal suggested that there should be peace talks (and lightly suggested that the invasion wasn't a great thing to keep going at) and the response to that "subversion" / "act of treason" was the sincere threat of being locked up. Indeed, it is simple dissent that can get you locked up, nothing more heinous than that - that is the takeaway from this democracy and free speech paradise that is Russia. As for source bias - that's a clip of a Russian TV show on state TV. The show was introduced to this thread as marking the first time there had been open dissent on TV about the war and as perhaps signalling winds of change. Some disagreed and suggested that in the wholly free democratic society that is Russia and where people who upset Putin aren't routinely murdered or thrown out of windows, there had in fact already been well documented open dissent about the war in free speaking Russia. Others disagreed. You're wandering off topic with numbers of men deaths and so on, and I am not sure where you get your facts and figures on the progress of the war, but you should take them with a pinch of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 (edited) Quote Are we saying theres little difference between the two ? And again , that isnt the offence, the offence is maliciously spreading false info , aka subversion/treason, something you can be locked up for in this country. I believe the main difference is that in this country people don't get locked up for protesting about a war the UK is involved - e.g. in Iraq / Afghanistan, nor do they accidentally fall overboard, out of a window or suddenly die. Edited September 15, 2022 by Gordon R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 15 minutes ago, Mungler said: On the subject of the machine translation, it doesn't matter. Of course it matters, you have posted a item that clearly isnt true, now youre wriggling about its not your problem , or the sources, but a 'machine' , when a simple google search for '15 days in jail for criticising the Russian government' yields absolutely no results to match the claim. If you buy a lottery scratch card that tells you youve won £1000 , but when you try to claim it , its really only a £1 , 'because the machine messed up' would you be OK with that ? 21 minutes ago, Mungler said: In an earlier episode a liberal suggested that there should be peace talks (and lightly suggested that the invasion wasn't a great thing to keep going at) and the response to that "subversion" / "act of treason" was the sincere threat of being locked up. Indeed, it is simple dissent that can get you locked up, nothing more heinous than that - that is the takeaway from this democracy and free speech paradise that is Russia. 'In his opinion' there was a credible possibility he could b locked up, his opinion counts for nothing when there isnt even a crime committed. Plus youve twisted my words with the subversion and treason bit, they apply to most 'free' countries, a credible attempt to bring the government or country down , meets with very harsh sentences. 25 minutes ago, Mungler said: As for source bias - that's a clip of a Russian TV show on state TV. The show was introduced to this thread as marking the first time there had been open dissent on TV about the war and as perhaps signalling winds of change. Some disagreed and suggested that in the wholly free democratic society that is Russia and where people who upset Putin aren't routinely murdered or thrown out of windows, there had in fact already been well documented open dissent about the war in free speaking Russia. Others disagreed. Its funny how youve seized upon a Russia source as being credible, when it suits your viewpoint ? Any other time, they are liars and murderers. 27 minutes ago, Mungler said: You're wandering off topic with numbers of men deaths and so on, and I am not sure where you get your facts and figures on the progress of the war, but you should take them with a pinch of salt. Got them from the Ukrainian ministry of TrUth , its a great source of whats really going on over there.... 20 minutes ago, Gordon R said: I believe the main difference is that in this country people don't get locked up for protesting about a war the UK is involved - e.g. in Iraq / Afghanistan, nor do they accidentally fall overboard, out of a window or suddenly die. Really ? https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/23/politics.iraq I wont bore you with the dozens of examples of similar incidents, and if you cant think of anyone who has suddenly died/suicided themselves , and was some way involved in Iraq or Afghan anti war sentiment, some in prominent positions, well , I dont know what to say ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 Quote Really ? https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/oct/23/politics.iraq Rewulf - that is bottom of the barrel. They were detained on a coach for a couple of hours. They were not charged, they didn't go to prison, they did not fall out of the coach window on to a hard road, they did not tumble into the sea and drown, they did not suddenly die. Your "proof" is laughable. You are better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 39 minutes ago, Gordon R said: Rewulf - that is bottom of the barrel. They were detained on a coach for a couple of hours. They were not charged, they didn't go to prison, they did not fall out of the coach window on to a hard road, they did not tumble into the sea and drown, they did not suddenly die. Your "proof" is laughable. You are better than this. Just giving you an example , that this is not all one sided. The people on the coach had done nothing wrong , and their rights were abused and ignored, peaceful protest is not illegal in any way shape or form in this country, but it seems to depend on what it is youre protesting about.... I know Russia doesnt enjoy the same freedoms we do , and yes, people die in mysterious circumstances, often with laughable explanations, no one is saying (despite munglers assertions) that Russia is a liberal western style democracy. That said, people die in mysterious circumstances here and in other western countries, the difference is , when someone points out that doesnt look quite right , they get called a tin foil hat wearing lizard fancier. When it happens in Russia , no one bats an eyelid , and its accepted the dodgy government did it. Talking about laughable 'suicides' https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/mi6-spy-dead-bag-locked-himself-gareth-williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Rewulf said: peaceful protest is not illegal in any way shape or form in this country, but it seems to depend on what it is youre protesting about.... Hereby hangs the rub as to interpretation of peaceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: Hereby hangs the rub as to interpretation of peaceful. Im not sure what you mean ? If I or you were driving, or travelling to a protest, as we have not actually got there, are we committing a crime ? The people on the bus were detained, to be detained , there has to reasonable grounds that an offence has , or is about to be committed. These parameters were not satisfied. If , once they got to the protest, they behaving violently or were intimidating , then its public order or assault, clearly a crime. The way some covid protesters were dealt with, with very heavy handed police action, against people gluing themselves to motorways, and virtual inaction from the police, says much about what is considered 'acceptable'. I digress, Mungler wants to believe that everyone who steps out of line in Russia gets sent to gulag for 20 years hard labour, or one squeak about 'Sauron' , and a group of burly FSB agents will throw you out the nearest window. But these assertions suit his opinion. For the record, again, Russia is not the kind of place I would want to live, but lets try and keep a bit of reality in the debate, because if it were really that bad, it wouldnt be Somalis and Afghans on the beach at Gravesend, it would be Russians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 Quote peaceful protest is not illegal in any way shape or form in this country, but it seems to depend on what it is youre protesting about.... Yet another sweeping statement, with no legal basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 Blimey, paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs about what? It's so pedantic and so wearing and once again whatever point is attempted to be made is lost in reams and reams of..... The key point from today's Russian TV clip is that being locked up (and that is locked up for 15 days, 15 weeks or 15 years) for disagreeing with the government is an appalling state of affairs, but hey, that's living free in Russia right? This isn't even about "protesting" - just "disagreeing" can get you locked up. Indeed, a quick Google lands on this chap who got a 7 stretch https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-08/russia-sends-official-to-prison-for-7-years-for-anti-war-comment?leadSource=uverify wall The very fact that the first recorded broadcast criticism of the Russian government's approach to the war (weak criticism that it was) came only last week on state TV and after a particularly bad week in Ukraine for the Russian government (or highly strategized tactical withdrawal as some would have us believe), and was remarked on because it was the first time. We now wander into how it's just as bad in the UK and with people being locked up and disappeared. Utter nonsense and an attempt to distract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 I was waiting for Rewulf to take the bait. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 Can we keep it on point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boybrit Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 Saw a report that Selenskys cavalcade had a car crash in Kiev with a VW beetle and that he was slightly injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 will be interesting to see if this meeting with the chinese premier.......alters putins thinking....im sure the chinese are loosing money as a result of this debarkle..............and money is the chinese god....they want to see an end to this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 1 hour ago, ditchman said: will be interesting to see if this meeting with the chinese premier.......alters putins thinking....im sure the chinese are loosing money as a result of this debarkle..............and money is the chinese god....they want to see an end to this... It’s reported on MSM (and to save a few the trouble, yes, it must be a pack of lies) but word is the Chinese don’t want to back a loser…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Mungler said: It’s reported on MSM (and to save a few the trouble, yes, it must be a pack of lies) but word is the Chinese don’t want to back a loser…. 🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Mungler said: Blimey, paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs about what? It's so pedantic and so wearing and once again whatever point is attempted to be made is lost in reams and reams of..... The irony 😂 2 hours ago, Mungler said: The key point from today's Russian TV clip is that being locked up (and that is locked up for 15 days, 15 weeks or 15 years) for disagreeing with the government is an appalling state of affairs, but hey, that's living free in Russia right? This isn't even about "protesting" - just "disagreeing" can get you locked up. It actually can't, but hey, Sauron lizards, blah blah 🙊 2 hours ago, Mungler said: Indeed, a quick Google lands on this chap who got a 7 stretch Which I told you about earlier , but as usual, you just fly off on a mad one, and ignore everything except your own tirade.... If you spent less time attacking myself and others, hating Russia, and being self righteous, you might learn something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 15, 2022 Report Share Posted September 15, 2022 I’ve been busy Googling ‘Russian dissent prison’ and there’s loads of reports including 4 women in Putin’s home town. Anyways, where were we? Ah yes ‘saying anything anti Putin or anti war in Russia is hazardous to your personal liberty’. But, dissent has hit Russian media and now the Chinese have openly expressed serious concerns about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the self inflicted results that have followed on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mchughcb Posted September 16, 2022 Report Share Posted September 16, 2022 20 hours ago, Mungler said: It’s machine translated. 15 days or 15 years, it’s locking people up for questioning the government. I was merely pointing out that the reality of the situation in Russia is at odds with some of the claims already made in this thread. If you wish to start a new discussion about what does or does not happen in Ukraine then feel free. It’s a shame there’s a draft on in Ukraine, but that is because that country has been invaded. I can’t see though that the Ukrainian military is particularly in the doldrums or lacking in morale as might be the case with pressed conscription - as is the case for the Russian troops who appear to be more keen on aborting and going home than fighting in another country for someone unknown reason put forward by Putin. Yeah okay. It would never happen in a western democracy right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 16, 2022 Report Share Posted September 16, 2022 13 minutes ago, mchughcb said: Yeah okay. It would never happen in a western democracy right? How random. Australia? And the charges were dropped. Is that the best you’ve got. In other news, mass graves found in Izium. No doubt more MSM lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 16, 2022 Report Share Posted September 16, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, ditchman said: will be interesting to see if this meeting with the chinese premier.......alters putins thinking....im sure the chinese are loosing money as a result of this debarkle..............and money is the chinese god....they want to see an end to this... China is in very deep financial do dah, according to some commentators. Edited September 16, 2022 by Penelope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted September 16, 2022 Report Share Posted September 16, 2022 31 minutes ago, Penelope said: China is in very deep financial do dah, according to some commentators. and alot of their money is tied up in the west.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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