Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Mice!]

11 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The US defence sec has publicly stated they want the war to continue, as it weakens Russia, and that's in our interests

Hence why the Ukraine are still being supplied with weapons, so still able to fight, any physical damage is being done in the Ukraine and no American, British ect soldiers and dying like the Middle East,  so the public aren't calling on their MPs to do anything or bring the troops home.

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

Putin rolling tanks over a border for a land grab, when he didn’t have to, and I apportion culpability on that basis not on ‘what about what happened in Iraq

But Putin has done it twice in recent years without any major reaction from the West, so why would he not? These people never have to do the things they do, but they do it.

The reason Iraq is being used as an example is the action and reaction,  Saddam invaded, this threatening oil and Saudi so the West flattened Iraq, Saddam ruled a harsh regime and carried out acts against the Kurds that needed addressing,  but it was the invasion which brought action,  I doubt any invasion is ever legal, but I don't think that ever concerns the invader.

I can't think of another example where there has been an invasion where NATO has acted to stop it, why did the US and UK act to stop Saddam? Oil is my best guess, as Kuwait aren't members of NATO. 

I don't see how it being 20 years or 5 makes any difference. 

And Saddam couldn't strike back against us.

Thus is why Russia is different,  they can strike back against Europe,  turning off the gas could be a massive blow.

9 hours ago, Mungler said:

at what point do you / the nation turn from supporting Ukraine to forcing Ukraine into a settlement with Putin to get the lights back on’.

The Ukraine seem like they will keep going,  despite the cost and those paying games will let them, it might take Putin turning the power off to stop the West supplying the weapons keeping the conflict going. 

[mick miller]

4 hours ago, McSpredder said:

Are you certain they were all from the West?...

Okay, not all. But a lot.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by mick miller

[McSpredder]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Okay, not all. But a lot.

Agreed, behaviour of Western nations has often been less than perfect, but some African economies have been seriously distorted due to actions of Far Eastern countries over the last 50 years.

Recipient nations are not above criticism, that goes back a long way, and many of their rulers have been intolerant of criticism.   I shall never forget the roars of laughter from the audience during a performance of HMS Pinafore in Kampala (1970) at the line: "...it is one of the happiest characteristics of this glorious country that official utterances are invariably regarded as unanswerable."   We weren't laughing so much the following year, after Idi Amin had become president.

[Rewulf]

Just to back up my story that the US doesn't want peace in Ukraine, apparently Zelensky doesn't want peace either. 

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/ukraine-rules-out-ceasefire-and-insists-only-diplomacy-can-end-war-as-fighting-intensifies-in-donbas-12618644?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQIKAGwASCAAgM%3D#aoh=16532100993896&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Fukraine-rules-out-ceasefire-and-insists-only-diplomacy-can-end-war-as-fighting-intensifies-in-donbas-12618644

No ceasefire unless Russia gives up ALL the territory its taken, but apparently 'diplomacy' will win the day? 

Meanwhile the death and destruction continues. 

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Just to back up my story that the US doesn't want peace in Ukraine, apparently Zelensky doesn't want peace either. 

No ceasefire unless Russia gives up ALL the territory its taken, but apparently 'diplomacy' will win the day? 

Meanwhile the death and destruction continues. 

There should be no reward for an aggressor. 

[Rewulf]

Just now, oowee said:

There should be no reward for an aggressor. 

If only that were the general consensus throughout the free world. 

It's sadly just a saying we would like to believe, a little like karma, a myth. 

[oowee]

Just now, Rewulf said:

If only that were the general consensus throughout the free world. 

It's sadly just a saying we would like to believe, a little like karma, a myth. 

Yep no doubt all sides will just want to get on with things. I can't see the sanctions lasting 5 mins post any kind of settlement. 

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

I can't see the sanctions lasting 5 mins post any kind of settlement

Me neither 👍

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

There should be no reward for an aggressor. 

Indeed, it’s not a totally unreasonable ‘ask’.

Even when you’re on a loser there’s tactical merit it making it attritional if only to be a n a position to cut a better deal.

As an aside it drawing it out helps all neighbouring nations at any threat of ‘more of the same’ from Russia; indeed it’s no coincidence that the countries that don’t mooch on their NATO contributions border Russia.

Before we got stuck into this, everyone was saying what a tactical genius Putin was - buying Brexit to weaken the Euro alliance etc  but this has been a total disaster for him and with 2 counties who had previously steadfastly resisted joining NATO rushing for the signature page.

[Rewulf]

57 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Before we got stuck into this, everyone was saying what a tactical genius Putin was - buying Brexit to weaken the Euro alliance etc

You don't really believe that do you? 

57 minutes ago, Mungler said:

but this has been a total disaster for him and with 2 counties who had previously steadfastly resisted joining NATO rushing for the signature page

 

59 minutes ago, Mungler said:

As an aside it drawing it out helps all neighbouring nations at any threat of ‘more of the same’ from Russia; indeed it’s no coincidence that the countries that don’t mooch on their NATO contributions border Russia.

It's almost as if..... 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Before we got stuck into this, everyone was saying what a tactical genius Putin was - buying Brexit to weaken the Euro alliance etc  but this has been a total disaster for him and with 2 counties who had previously steadfastly resisted joining NATO rushing for the signature page

I still don't see it like that, Putin isn't going to simply walk away from the territory taken, I'm not sure what the sanctions put in place will really do, given he controls the gas to Europe when he decides to flick the switch I expect the sanctions will be lifted. 

This is an ongoing thing, call it phhase 3, after phase 2 the Ukrainians started getting training from Nato countries and better weapons,  which has lead to where we are now.

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You don't really believe that do you? 

 

It's almost as if..... 

The remoaners claim Brexit was influenced by Russian sponsorship / funding of Farage / UKIP / Banks and on-line shenanigans.

I’m ambivalent, I think getting out of Europe will pay long term dividends and self governance (and not being told what to do by the French and the Germans) is something quite precious right now.

And as for the ‘as if’ well yes, it’s as if Putin’s thrown a massive boomerang. 

[ordnance]

3 hours ago, Mice! said:

I still don't see it like that, Putin isn't going to simply walk away from the territory taken, I'm not sure what the sanctions put in place will really do, given he controls the gas to Europe when he decides to flick the switch I expect the sanctions will be lifted. 

This is an ongoing thing, call it phhase 3, after phase 2 the Ukrainians started getting training from Nato countries and better weapons,  which has lead to where we are now.

Putin won't be there for ever, he might not walk away but he could be forced out. Russia's other choice is to try and hold on the areas they control, and watch the body bags going back to Russia for years to come. What lead us to where we are now, is not Ukraine getting weapon's and training from NATO its a foreign power invading their country. 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

Putin won't be there for ever

He won't be voted out though, he could be in power for another 20 years.

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

What lead us to where we are now, is not Ukraine getting weapon's and training from NATO its a foreign power invading their country

I agree this is down to Russia invading,  but nothing was done about there last two land grabs, if there were sanctions then they achieved nothing.

And I maintain that without the weapons the Ukraine is being supplied with then this would be over by now.

The Russian powers won't care about body bags going back, its the long game, controlling the ports and all that brings.

If they decided that they were taking too many casualties I'm sure they would step up the bombardments to a level the Ukraine bravery simply couldn't stand against. 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

He won't be voted out though, he could be in power for another 20 years.

I agree this is down to Russia invading,  but nothing was done about there last two land grabs, if there were sanctions then they achieved nothing.

And I maintain that without the weapons the Ukraine is being supplied with then this would be over by now.

The Russian powers won't care about body bags going back, its the long game, controlling the ports and all that brings.

If they decided that they were taking too many casualties I'm sure they would step up the bombardments to a level the Ukraine bravery simply couldn't stand against. 

The Afghan war demonstrates that they do care. As the numbers stack up resourcing gets a lot harder without a declaration of war. The babushka will come onto the streets. 

The test will be when Ukraine goes on full offensive. 

[Mice!]

Just now, oowee said:

The Afghan war demonstrates that they do care. As the numbers stack up resourcing gets a lot harder without a declaration of war. The babushka will come onto the streets. 

The test will be when Ukraine goes on full offensive. 

But how long did they stay in Afghanistan? And that wasn't a fertile country with ports on their border

[ordnance]

Quote

He won't be voted out though, he could be in power for another 20 years.

I didn't say he would be voted out.

Quote

And I maintain that without the weapons the Ukraine is being supplied with then this would be over by now.

Could be, its just as well then they were supplied and trained so they could defend their country.

Quote

I agree this is down to Russia invading,  but nothing was done about there last two land grabs, if there were sanctions then they achieved nothing.

More should have being done in the past,  but something was done, training and supplying the Ukraine army.  As for sanctions they are on a whole differing level now, than they were in the past. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by ordnance

[Mungler]

As above, I still don’t see or agree with the proxy war hoo ha in helping Ukraine defend itself.

Referencing other countries that weren’t helped to the same extent - well not helping hasn’t somehow become a precedent and perhaps Ukraine was ‘the line’ that got crossed. 

The only argument for not helping Ukraine appears to be because it would be over sooner, but that does rather skip over the whole Russian occupation, genocide and the Ukrainian people not being too keen on that.

[ordnance]

6 minutes ago, Mungler said:

As above, I still don’t see or agree with the proxy war hoo ha in helping Ukraine defend itself.

Referencing other countries that weren’t helped to the same extent - well not helping hasn’t somehow become a precedent and perhaps Ukraine was ‘the line’ that got crossed. 

The only argument for not helping Ukraine appears to be because it would be over sooner, but that does rather skip over the whole Russian occupation, genocide and the Ukrainian people not being too keen on that.

Yes, a bit like saying if America didn't help arm the UK during WW2 it could have being over sooner. 

[Newbie to this]

12 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Yes, a bit like saying if America didn't help arm the UK during WW2 it could have being over sooner. 

The US were not arming us for free

[ordnance]

11 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

The US were not arming us for free

And ?  

Quote

The US Congress last week approved a Lend-lease Act for Ukraine, resurrecting the World War II program of that name.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by ordnance

[Newbie to this]

20 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The US Congress last week approved a Lend-lease Act for Ukraine, resurrecting the World War II program of that name.

Good for them.

[Rewulf]

50 minutes ago, Mungler said:

genocide

Is that another one of those over used terms? 

 

19 minutes ago, ordnance said:

The US Congress last week approved a Lend-lease Act for Ukraine, resurrecting the World War II program of that name

Well that's good of them 😂

How are they supposed to pay them back, by the time it's finished there won't be any infrastructure, millions have left, never to return. And it's not like they were rolling in money to start with! 

I notice the Ukrainians still haven't laid a finger on any of the multiple Russian pipelines going across the country, wonder why that is? 🤔

[ordnance]

Quote

How are they supposed to pay them back, by the time it's finished there won't be any infrastructure, millions have left, never to return. And it's not like they were rolling in money to start with! 

You would have to ask them that. 

Quote

I notice the Ukrainians still haven't laid a finger on any of the multiple Russian pipelines going across the country, wonder why that is? 

Maybe they don't want to cut off gas supplies to countries that are arming and supporting them, just a thought 

 

Quote

 

Is that another one of those over used terms

 

 

 

You think, Ukraine's would disagree. I would guess they don't want go down that road again, or Soviet / Russian rule something they have experienced in the past. 

 In 1932 and 1933, millions of Ukrainians were killed in the Holodomor, a man-made famine engineered by the Soviet government of Joseph Stalin. The primary victims of the Holodomor (literally "death inflicted by starvation") were rural farmers and villagers, who made up roughly 80 percent of Ukraine's population in the 1930s. While it is impossible to determine the precise number of victims of the Ukrainian genocide, most estimates by scholars range from roughly 3.5 million to 7 million (with some estimates going higher). The most detailed demographic studies estimate the death toll at 3.9 million. Historians agree that, as with other genocides, the precise number will never be known.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by ordnance

[Mungler]

13 hours ago, ordnance said:

Yes, a bit like saying if America didn't help arm the UK during WW2 it could have being over sooner. 

Spot on. Indeed, it was arm and feed.

Oh and don’t forget, apparently that would have been the US carrying out a ‘proxy war’ against Germany 😉

.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Mungler