Gun add ons ?.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Give me strength!  I can assure you that any lack of confidence I may have felt when first starting out with a shotgun, wasn’t down to how a cartridge/choke was performing! 
As we’ve already established, any miss or hit when out shooting simply isn’t down to either the gun, the choke or the cartridge; it just isn’t. 
A consistent and correct mount is paramount to consistently good shooting ( aka gun fit ) arrived at over long periods of good practise, practise and more practise ( a habit which should never lapse ) then you have issues like eye dominance, footwork, addressing the target, followed by loads and loads of experience. 
If after all that, you were interested enough to find out, you could spend time on a pattern plate to see what your choke is actually choked at with a particular cartridge…..but it wont make one iota of difference between a hit and a miss. The other stuff will. 
 

😊

I seem to be able to pick up most guns and use whatever shells I have in and shoot pretty much the same but.............Recently I have been doing a few clays but asking them to be launched at random. I have noticed over the last few days on the blacks how much better my shooting has become. No doubt next week it will all go downhill. 

Switching between rifle and shotgun I find a huge difference is removing the bead on the barrel. It stops me trying to aim and to trust the kill zone picture before squeezing the trigger. 

I am sure for most coaching is the quickest way to improve. 

[Scully]

28 minutes ago, oowee said:

😊

I seem to be able to pick up most guns and use whatever shells I have in and shoot pretty much the same but.............Recently I have been doing a few clays but asking them to be launched at random. I have noticed over the last few days on the blacks how much better my shooting has become. No doubt next week it will all go downhill. 

Switching between rifle and shotgun I find a huge difference is removing the bead on the barrel. It stops me trying to aim and to trust the kill zone picture before squeezing the trigger. 

I am sure for most coaching is the quickest way to improve. 

Our syndicate keeper ( bless him, died far too young ) did a lot of lamping for foxes as he was not only a full time keeper on an adjoining estate, but did part time on ours as well as being a syndicate member, always complained about forgetting to just point his shotgun rather than aiming it. Killed his swing he reckoned. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Absolutely  .I agree it takes a long time to build the muscle memory and sight picture of different birds .

Sometimes an add on can help with that or possibly hinder the process .

Are you a politician?   

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Give me strength!  I can assure you that any lack of confidence I may have felt when first starting out with a shotgun, wasn’t down to how a cartridge/choke was performing! 
As we’ve already established, any miss or hit when out shooting simply isn’t down to either the gun, the choke or the cartridge; it just isn’t. 
A consistent and correct mount is paramount to consistently good shooting ( aka gun fit ) arrived at over long periods of good practise, practise and more practise ( a habit which should never lapse ) then you have issues like eye dominance, footwork, addressing the target, followed by loads and loads of experience. 
If after all that, you were interested enough to find out, you could spend time on a pattern plate to see what your choke is actually choked at with a particular cartridge…..but it wont make one iota of difference between a hit and a miss. The other stuff will. 
 

Thanks for that. I did pick up on quite a lot of it from Gerry Turner, John King, Chris Craddock and Mike Aldis while qualifying as a coach back in '86. It's not just about hitting and missing but having the confidence and knowledge that permits one to do better. Pointless, of course, if one is already perfect, but could tightening things up a little give a better kill ratio with less runners or could the opposite allow you to hit what you just missed. You'll never know.

Not quite right, by the way. Proper gun fit is what enables a consistent and correct mount.

Edited October 19, 2022 by wymberley

[Scully]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Thanks for that. I did pick up on quite a lot of it from Gerry Turner, John King, Chris Craddock and Mike Aldis while qualifying as a coach back in '86. It's not just about hitting and missing but having the confidence and knowledge that permits one to do better. Pointless, of course, if one is already perfect, but could tightening things up a little give a better kill ratio with less runners or could the opposite allow you to hit what you just missed. You'll never know.

Not quite right, by the way. Proper gun fit is what enables a consistent and correct 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Scully

[London Best]

I would be prepared to bet that the best shots I know have never patterned a shotgun in their lives.

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

 

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

Thanks for that. I did pick up on quite a lot of it from Gerry Turner, John King, Chris Craddock and Mike Aldis while qualifying as a coach back in '86. It's not just about hitting and missing but having the confidence and knowledge that permits one to do better. Pointless, of course, if one is already perfect, but could tightening things up a little give a better kill ratio with less runners or could the opposite allow you to hit what you just missed. You'll never know.

Not quite right, by the way. Proper gun fit is what enables a consistent and correct mount.

Sorry about that; all fingers and thumbs for some reason! 
Right! 
Good for you! Then you’ll be aware that no one can fit a gun to someone with an inconsistent mount. We can all point a gun at a spot on a wall in a shop, but doing it consistently time after time in different shooting clothes in the field when a target suddenly appears is a different matter all together. And a different topic. 
It IS all about hitting and missing, that’s exactly what it’s all about! No one ever, has had that eureka moment when they’ve discovered that the reason they’re missing enough to cause concern is because that choke they thought was half is in fact 3/8 or 5/8 with the cartridge they’re using! If that’s the case then it follows their shooting goes to pot again when they have to use a different cartridge. Not the case in my experience. 
I’m far from being a perfect shot, and I think the most I’ve ever scored on a sporting round of 100 clays, is 85, but I am usually ( not always, am only human ) for whatever reason, a good live quarry shooter.
My last two outings in the hide have returned ratios of 1.68 and 1.88. The first was with Teague 3/8 and 1/2 ( so I’m led to believe 😉) the latter with a trap gun fixed choke at anywhere between 1/2 and 3/4 and full and extra full…..no one seems to know. I excel at shooting game….usually. 
Patterning a shotgun with a particular cartridge may be the correct method of determining choke, but it will NOT, it simply can’t, improve your shooting. 

[wymberley]

20 minutes ago, London Best said:

I would be prepared to bet that the best shots I know have never patterned a shotgun in their lives.

Yep, as ever it’s not what you know but who.

[Old farrier]

16 minutes ago, London Best said:

I would be prepared to bet that the best shots I know have never patterned a shotgun in their lives.

Probably not 

however if they are shooting best proper guns I’ll wager they were pattern testing before delivery 😊

ive pattern tested plenty of loads and cartridges to see just what they do 

am I a good shot not really but I can usually hit the middle of the paper or the plate 

if the pattern is no good it won’t matter where I put the gun as it’s pattern that kills 

usually from the same gun as it gives me a benchmark to work from I’m fortunate to have the time and safe area to do It 

now it’s soon going to be down to the individual to test steel loads in there guns and see what pattern they get 

there’s no books on steel and non toxic stuff for reference a lot of myths and my mate said stuff 

so for game shooting anyone that wants a cylinder pattern had best try a few loads and see what they actually get 

[wymberley]

16 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

Sorry about that; all fingers and thumbs for some reason! 
Right! 
Good for you! Then you’ll be aware that no one can fit a gun to someone with an inconsistent mount. We can all point a gun at a spot on a wall in a shop, but doing it consistently time after time in different shooting clothes in the field when a target suddenly appears is a different matter all together. And a different topic. 
It IS all about hitting and missing, that’s exactly what it’s all about! No one ever, has had that eureka moment when they’ve discovered that the reason they’re missing enough to cause concern is because that choke they thought was half is in fact 3/8 or 5/8 with the cartridge they’re using! If that’s the case then it follows their shooting goes to pot again when they have to use a different cartridge. Not the case in my experience. 
I’m far from being a perfect shot, and I think the most I’ve ever scored on a sporting round of 100 clays, is 85, but I am usually ( not always, am only human ) for whatever reason, a good live quarry shooter.
My last two outings in the hide have returned ratios of 1.68 and 1.88. The first was with Teague 3/8 and 1/2 ( so I’m led to believe 😉) the latter with a trap gun fixed choke at anywhere between 1/2 and 3/4 and full and extra full…..no one seems to know. I excel at shooting game….usually. 
Patterning a shotgun with a particular cartridge may be the correct method of determining choke, but it will NOT, it simply can’t, improve your shooting. 

Going to knock this on the head as I’m confused. Can’t seem to understand why anyone who would see no need to pattern their gun but does need to calculate their bag returns to two decimal places.

[JohnfromUK]

15 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

there’s no books on steel and non toxic stuff for reference a lot of myths and my mate said stuff

This is an interesting point. 

My understanding is that to obtain similar striking energy (penetration) you need larger (heavier) individual pellets.  That means fewer, which means a more 'open' pattern.

That in turn means that in order to have a decent pattern (without big holes) you would expect to need more choke; however - the characteristics of the steel cartridge - full cup wad, hard shot means (apparently) that it patterns more tightly anyway.  So - when I can get my hands on a suitable box of 2 1/2" 'game' steel cartridges, I will try a patterning exercise.

The guns I use for game have IC, 1/4 and 1/2 nominal chokes.  The one I did pattern is nominally IC and 1/4 and with a fibre wad 1 oz (the old William Powell "Super Velocity" by Hull Cartridge Co) - was pretty close to expected.  I have not patterned the other two guns I use for game.

Edited October 19, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Going to knock this on the head as I’m confused. Can’t seem to understand why anyone who would see no need to pattern their gun but does need to calculate their bag returns to two decimal places.

Have you forgotten what you posted?
I do it out of interest, to see how I’m shooting, but pointed it out to you as you made a reference regarding ‘better kill ratios’. They’ve never been much better for me personally. 
No doubt there are some who can do better, but it won’t be through patterning their gun with a particular cartridge. 

1 hour ago, London Best said:

I would be prepared to bet that the best shots I know have never patterned a shotgun in their lives.

I don’t know anyone who has patterned their gun. 🤷‍♂️

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

This is an interesting point. 

My understanding is that to obtain similar striking energy (penetration) you need larger (heavier) individual pellets.  That means fewer, which means a more 'open' pattern.

That in turn means that in order to have a decent pattern (without big holes) you would expect to need more choke; however - the characteristics of the steel cartridge (full cup wad, hard shot means (apparently) that it patterns more tightly anyway.  So - when I can get my hands on a suitable box of 2 1/2" 'game' steel cartridges, I will try a patterning exercise.

The guns I use for game have IC, 1/4 and 1/2 nominal chokes.  The one I did pattern is nominally IC and 1/4 and with a fibre wad 1 oz (the old William Powell "Super Velocity" by Hull Cartridge Co) - was pretty close to expected.  I have not patterned the other two guns I use for game.

It’s a bit of untrodden ground we are walking on 

it’s easy to get the shot count up by increasing the number of pellets in the cartridges this will give you a decent pattern 

however my 2.1/2 inch chamber guns don’t have the capacity for the extra steel shot this is where I think the problem is going to be apreciate you get more shot steel to lead in weight but you can’t increase the capacity of your cartridge 

im experimenting with some home loads at the moment most open I’ve got pattern wise with steel would equate to a tight 1/2 pattern with lead on the % of pellet strikes 

note due to less energy im pattern test at 30 with steel 40 with lead on the smaller shot size 

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

note due to less energy im pattern test at 30 with steel 40 with lead

I haven't really thought through the 'how' bit yet in any detail; my past patterning was done as described earlier in the thread ........... and was a massive amount of effort.  I think I will do direct comparisons (steel versus my usual lead) possibly at 30 yards.  It won't give me the actual 'choke value', but will show me if I have a decent pattern at a realistic range, which is what really counts for a clean kill on game.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I haven't really thought through the 'how' bit yet in any detail; my past patterning was done as described earlier in the thread ........... and was a massive amount of effort.  I think I will do direct comparisons (steel versus my usual lead) possibly at 30 yards.  It won't give me the actual 'choke value', but will show me if I have a decent pattern at a realistic range, which is what really counts for a clean kill on game.

A very good plan 

I was trying to get a suitable pattern for a good kill but retain game in a fit state to eat 

anyone who’s shot rabbits with steel will tell you how damaging steel can be 

I’m sure we can get there in the end it’s a fine line obtaining the pattern required along with the required energy at the distance we regularly shoot our choice of game from a 2.1/2 inch cartridge 

[Scully]

42 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

A very good plan 

I was trying to get a suitable pattern for a good kill but retain game in a fit state to eat 

anyone who’s shot rabbits with steel will tell you how damaging steel can be 

I’m sure we can get there in the end it’s a fine line obtaining the pattern required along with the required energy at the distance we regularly shoot our choice of game from a 2.1/2 inch cartridge 

Yes, hitting rabbits with HP steel is without doubt humane. Haven’t tried it with standard. 

[Old farrier]

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

Yes, hitting rabbits with HP steel is without doubt humane. Haven’t tried it with standard. 

That’s the problem we’re going to shoot game with steel to make it a saleable product (allegedly)

however the damage of the product needs to be addressed or there will be a lot more unsaleable game

appreciate a lot of wildfowl are shot with steel with minimal damage so it’s possible 

 

just need a 2.1/2 inch cartridge with a fibre/ degradable wad now 

[Scully]

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

That’s the problem we’re going to shoot game with steel to make it a saleable product (allegedly)

however the damage of the product needs to be addressed or there will be a lot more unsaleable game

appreciate a lot of wildfowl are shot with steel with minimal damage so it’s possible 

 

just need a 2.1/2 inch cartridge with a fibre/ degradable wad now 

Admittedly they were through 3/4 choke, so were very hard hitting. I used the same load on mallard through 1/2 and they were fine for eating, but it was flighting on ponds at average ranges. 
I intend to start off with standard steel through 3/8 on game and take it from there. 
Thin barrelled game guns are going to struggle to begin with I think, I was shooting on the moors last weekend with a bloke who had with him a H&H 20 bore back actioned gun. A beautiful bit of kit which he admitted wouldn’t be used with steel by him. He only fired 3 shots all day so for that kind of day I’d be using Bismuth. 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 19, 2022 by Scully

[wymberley]

16 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I haven't really thought through the 'how' bit yet in any detail; my past patterning was done as described earlier in the thread ........... and was a massive amount of effort.  I think I will do direct comparisons (steel versus my usual lead) possibly at 30 yards.  It won't give me the actual 'choke value', but will show me if I have a decent pattern at a realistic range, which is what really counts for a clean kill on game.

Although one should never say never, it's some 35 years since I shot steel and a few less for zinc and have no intention of repeating it - obviously not the zinc. I'm wondering if in order to reduce the "massive amount of effort" the 'patchiness factor' could be used as the comparator. It would, though, require a check to ensure that the pattern central thickening is pretty much the same between steel and lead patterns containing the same number of pellets. Finding and counting just a few 5" dia pellet empty areas is much quicker than counting 'x' pellets and has long been known to be an accurate assessment of performance.

[JohnfromUK]

16 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I'm wondering if in order to reduce the "massive amount of effort" the 'patchiness factor' could be used as the comparator.

Yes, that is the sort of thing I had in mind.  The 'counting pellets' is not valid (I think) at 30 yards even if scaled because I don't believe it scales linearly (i.e counting in a 30" circle at 40 yards isn't the same as a 15" circle at 20 yards).

[wymberley]

On 20/10/2022 at 11:36, JohnfromUK said:

Yes, that is the sort of thing I had in mind.  The 'counting pellets' is not valid (I think) at 30 yards even if scaled because I don't believe it scales linearly (i.e counting in a 30" circle at 40 yards isn't the same as a 15" circle at 20 yards).

 

On 19/10/2022 at 18:20, JohnfromUK said:

and was a massive amount of effort. 

For whatever reasons which are of no consequence here, I've never found the job onerous - possibly because it's something that I've always done and considered it part and parcel of shooting live quarry. Getting on now so have changed my method. As the whole of the 30" circle is not effective, I still count the inner 20" circle to ensure a sufficient pellet count for, hopefully, a clean kill and use the patch test on the whole 30" to assess quality.