Eley pro eco wads - awful!

[mgsontour]

For what it's worth, I've previously used the Eley eco wad 32/3's and felt they were underpowered ( or maybe I'm just not that good a shot ) however ( I'm either getting better or had a lucky day today ) as shot just under a 100 again 32/3's as I was given them and was pretty impressed tbh, maybe they have changed something in production

[Jimbo yorks]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

What the Yanks figured out was that 32g in 3inch or 28g in 2.75 inch doing 1600ft/sec did a lot better than 36g in 3 inch and 32g in 2.7inch doing 1300/1400 ft/sec.

As long as the pressure is this side of reasonable, velocity does help steel.

100% agree with you.

In the us kent (gamebores owners) have a cartridge called fast steel 2.0 that does about 1550fps.

It's easy with modern powders to keep the pressure down but get the velocity up. 

With steel speed genuinely kills.

Driven light and fast the kills are very good. I use 42 gram bb in 10 bore which is lighter than the normal 48 gram load and it really does work well.

As for eley - their QC must be a joke as ive brought a slab of vip 28 gauge and they rip the crimps off on firing and had the knock down power of a wet ****. Will never ever buy them again now I've been bitten twice.

[Dave at kelton]

18 minutes ago, Jimbo yorks said:

100% agree with you.

In the us kent (gamebores owners) have a cartridge called fast steel 2.0 that does about 1550fps.

It's easy with modern powders to keep the pressure down but get the velocity up. 

With steel speed genuinely kills.

Driven light and fast the kills are very good. I use 42 gram bb in 10 bore which is lighter than the normal 48 gram load and it really does work well.

As for eley - their QC must be a joke as ive brought a slab of vip 28 gauge and they rip the crimps off on firing and had the knock down power of a wet ****. Will never ever buy them again now I've been bitten twice.

This is a point I have made previously. That is, CIP rules hamper us where steel loads are concerned. They are using faster more efficient steel factory loads because we are not allowed to. They are using exactly the same guns with no ill effects. 

This is another reason that many of us load our own. We can genuinely produce a better product because we aren’t subject to CIP rules.

[neutron619]

28 minutes ago, Dave at kelton said:

This is another reason that many of us load our own. We can genuinely produce a better product because we aren’t subject to CIP rules.

Probably won't or even can't change, unfortunately, since they're regulating 30-odd countries, most of which have institutionalized risk-aversion via EU law and the precautionary principle, rather than one country, where a certain amount of personal risk management still seems to be de rigeur.

Unless they go down the handgun route of adding a "+" for higher and higher pressures so that we get something like "HP", "HP+", "+HP+" and so on, like they do with 9mm Luger and various other cartridges.

Then again, given the confusion that HP steel is currently causing, it might cause more trouble that it's worth!

Edited January 11, 2023 by neutron619

[Jimbo yorks]

25 minutes ago, neutron619 said:

 

Unless they go down the handgun route of adding a "+" for higher and higher pressures so that we get something like "HP", "HP+", "+HP+" and so on, like they do with 9mm Luger and various other cartridges.

Thing is they don't even need to, the new generation of steel orientated powders the pressure is well below what cip states as max...

I can not wait for high performance (1500 fps +) with bio wads to hit the market in america. Would be an absolute game changer where steel shot is concerned and show the world what propper cartridges can actually do.

[rbrowning2]

CIP is not just about pressure but for steel momentum, from my simple observations the US market is all about 3” or 3.5” autos not your fine english side by side on a driven game shoot.
 

Edited January 11, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Dave at kelton]

36 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

CIP is not just about pressure but for steel momentum, from my simple observations the US market is all about 3” or 3.5” autos not your fine english side by side on a driven game shoot.
 

Agreed but for fine English side by sides you use standard steel as many of us are. What I see on one of the UKs premier estates were I pick up three times a week the vast majority are using modern OU’s that will handle the US loads

[Smudger687]

2 hours ago, Jimbo yorks said:

100% agree with you.

In the us kent (gamebores owners) have a cartridge called fast steel 2.0 that does about 1550fps.

It's easy with modern powders to keep the pressure down but get the velocity up. 

With steel speed genuinely kills.

Driven light and fast the kills are very good. I use 42 gram bb in 10 bore which is lighter than the normal 48 gram load and it really does work well.

As for eley - their QC must be a joke as ive brought a slab of vip 28 gauge and they rip the crimps off on firing and had the knock down power of a wet ****. Will never ever buy them again now I've been bitten twice.

I used to hold a similar opinion, but I'm not convinced anymore - velocity decays so quickly with spheres that any speed advantage at the muzzle is essentially negligible at 40 yards and beyond. High velocities also have the unwelcome side effect of causing your pattern to deteriorate faster, and to even achieve those high velocities in the first place requires payload to be sacrificed to stop the pressure going too high. 

For me, once the muzzle velocity tips over 1400 fps, I would much rather go for additional payload than additional velocity. This is especially true for longer range shots. 

I think that the main advantage of higher velocity loads is that it cuts your lead distance down - if you look at US waterfowler shotkam footage, they almost universally give less lead to ducks and geese. I know that if I gave the same amount of forward allowance using CIP-compliant shells, I would miss behind. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Smudger687

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

1 I used to hold a similar opinion, but I'm not convinced anymore - velocity decays so quickly with spheres that any speed advantage at the muzzle is essentially negligible at 40 yards and beyond.

2 High velocities also have the unwelcome side effect of causing your pattern to deteriorate faster, and to even achieve those high velocities in the first place requires payload to be sacrificed to stop the pressure going too high. 

3 For me, once the muzzle velocity tips over 1400 fps, I would much rather go for additional payload than additional velocity. This is especially true for longer range shots. 

4 I think that the main advantage of higher velocity loads is that it cuts your lead distance down - if you look at US waterfowler shotkam footage, they almost universally give less lead to ducks and geese. I know that if I gave the same amount of forward allowance using CIP-compliant shells, I would miss behind. 

1 1600fps gives 50fps over 1300 (most CIP shells are well inside the cup limit and 1200\1250 is probably average) at range, equating to 0.35ftlbs extra with No4 steel 1.69ftlbs v 1.34ftlbs at 50 yards. If we accept 1.5ftlbs as a pheasant\mallard killer, speed does make a difference.

2 High velocity is not responsible for poorer patterns, in lead it is the pressure as a side effect of high velocity which causes deformation, steel is much harder and as such at normal magnum pressures does not deform.

3 Longer range shots require more pellets to form a pattern at range but for sub 40 yards, a light fast load will do the job, 28g no 4 (192 pellets) will give circa 150 pellets in 30 inch circle with steel full choke (lead 1\2 choke) at 40 yards. Perfect for pheasant\mallard, whilst no5 or no 6 will do the job on pigeons.

4 Lead varies insignificantly in close but the time on target difference is 1600fps 0.178sec and 1300fps 0.193sec at 50 yards, the difference being 0.015sec, in which a bird flying at 45mph at 90 degrees to the gun covers 11.88inch, so the faster shell at 50 yards requires 12 inches less lead than the slower shell.

[Smudger687]

10 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

1 1600fps gives 50fps over 1300 (most CIP shells are well inside the cup limit and 1200\1250 is probably average) at range, equating to 0.35ftlbs extra with No4 steel 1.69ftlbs v 1.34ftlbs at 50 yards. If we accept 1.5ftlbs as a pheasant\mallard killer, speed does make a difference.

2 High velocity is not responsible for poorer patterns, in lead it is the pressure as a side effect of high velocity which causes deformation, steel is much harder and as such at normal magnum pressures does not deform.

3 Longer range shots require more pellets to form a pattern at range but for sub 40 yards, a light fast load will do the job, 28g no 4 (192 pellets) will give circa 150 pellets in 30 inch circle with steel full choke (lead 1\2 choke) at 40 yards. Perfect for pheasant\mallard, whilst no5 or no 6 will do the job on pigeons.

4 Lead varies insignificantly in close but the time on target difference is 1600fps 0.178sec and 1300fps 0.193sec at 50 yards, the difference being 0.015sec, in which a bird flying at 45mph at 90 degrees to the gun covers 11.88inch, so the faster shell at 50 yards requires 12 inches less lead than the slower shell.

1) A fair point, but personally I don't think it's enough of a difference to compensate for the recoil and payload sacrifice. I'd rather bump the size up to 3's. Also I believe the upper velocity limit for CIP is 1450 fps @ 2.5m. This would translate to a muzzle velocity ~1500 fps. 

2) Have to disagree with you here. Strictly speaking pressure has no direct on lead deformation (as the expanding gases will be separated from the shot by the wad), it's the forces generated during the rapid acceleration that cause the lead to deform. Steel patterns do degrade as velocity increases, though not to the extent of softer pellets. There are videos on youtube that demonstrate this effect, Zeekupp has one iirc. 

3) Yep, don't disagree. Most cartridges will bring down pheasant sized and smaller at sub-40 yards.

4) A foot difference at 50 yards, agreed, insignificant. Which shot size were these values derived from? Admittedly waterfowlers will be using steel, so it will decelerate faster.  

[wymberley]

With all the talk of higher, heavier and bigger it may just pay to bear in mind momentum should CIP come into play.

Top end CIP for MV2.5 is 430m/s

Edited January 12, 2023 by wymberley