Eley pro eco wads - awful!

[neutron619]

8 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

Seams to me that the best argument for not going to steel and away from lead  is all the confusion about  steel and chokes and super steel etc .

If  most the very experienced people on this forum are in doubt  how does the average shooter stand a chance .? 

 

But wasn't that always the case, really?

This (sub-)forum is a pretty self-selecting group of folk who are actually interested in cartridges, how they work and perform and want to talk about them. Oh - and 6.5x55SE who seems to get most of his sport here, I suppose. The number of people who actually bother to read / research enough to want to join in here aren't "average shooters" in that regard.

I'd say the "average shooter" is the one who goes to the shop once a season and asks for cartridges for pheasant or partridge, can probably answer which brand and whether he wants #5, #6 or #7 on the basis of whether he had a good season with them last time but gets hung up (a la Shooting Times etc.) on whether he should get a 30g or 32g cartridge and doesn't really know the answer - but blags it all the same depending on how fat his wallet is feeling that day. He doesn't care about wads, patterns or how hard the shot is - he just shoots the gun, is happy when it goes bang and hopefully hits some birds without caring much whether something about his kit was handicapping him.

Most folk are going to carry on exactly like that. The curious few will end up here, asking questions, testing stuff out, talking about it, answering questions as they always have and enjoying that. 6.5x55SE will keep trying to shoot them down, still not realising that just because we like to talk about this stuff, we are aware of how much (or little) difference it makes in the field. The world will continue to turn on its axis. OK -  a few more guns will probably get ruined when HP steel goes down Damascus barrels through ignorance, but I imagine most of the work will be done by RFDs who will steer customers away from stuff that will endanger them, just as they do now.

[Ultrastu]

About sums it up .

I'm a pigeon shooter .

I currently go to my rfd and pick up a slab of cheap lead carts mainly based on cost and then shot size and  brand last .

And again I'm happy if birds fall out the sky . As a technically minded person (airguns mainly ) but I still pattern test and work out energy retention etc . I can't be bothered about all this super steel stuff . The whole conversion leaves me cold .

What chance do others even less bothered than I have of getting it right .?? 

[Ttfjlc]

It’s remarkably easy to get it right if you’re responsible enough 👍

[enfieldspares]

I used to be a bit anal in that I'd only ever suggest folk use one of 1 ounce #7, or 1 1/16 ounce #6, or 1 1/8 ounce #5. I found that lighter payloads of #5 didn't have good pattern density on partridge and that on pheasant you could tell the ones shot by the guys using (as some did...harumph) 1 1/16 ounce of #7. Those last were not birds you'd want as "grace birds!

Edited November 26, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Stonepark]

10 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Those last were not birds you'd want as "grace birds!

Maybe, maybe not it depends more on the range they are shot at but chances are they would be very "dead" as opposed to pricked and picked with the 1 1\8 no5. 

1oz no7 is 340 pellets, 1 1\16 no7 has 361 pellets,  1 1\16 no 6 is 287 pellets and 1 1\8 no5 is 247 pellets, but they are spread over the pattern, it is not as if every extra pellet in the cartridge hits the bird.

Birds shot with no7 also have significantly less bruising than those shot with no5, no4, etc, so even an extra 4 to 2 hits per bird (which is all we are talking about if shooting at 25 to 40 yards) does not make the carcass inedible and they will likely still have less damage than those shot with no5 or larger.

Saying that, shooting full choke on birds 15 yards out will make them inedible, no matter the cartridge and my guess is that wastes far more than an extra pellet or two from no7.

[enfieldspares]

58 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Maybe, maybe not it depends more on the range they are shot at but chances are they would be very "dead" as opposed to pricked and picked with the 1 1\8 no5. 

Yes when you do the figures there's little in the count for that extra 1 1/16 ounce. Best, by far the best, all around cartridge were an ounce of English 6 1/2 as they had range, good pattern and yet lighter recoil than loads with greater payload.

That used to be the old Winchester GB back in the day. Having said that an internet search shows that some thought them awful! I keep thinking of getting some Hull "Grouse" but have, now, so little shooting, yet so many cartridges to hand that it'd be money not well used.

Edited November 26, 2022 by enfieldspares

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Ttfjlc said:

It’s remarkably easy to get it right if you’re responsible enough 👍

You'd have thought so, yet BASC elect to use a shot size which qualifies as HP steel in a penetration exercise comparing that of a No 5 lead and a supposedly standard steel shot measuring 3.3mm.

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Maybe, maybe not it depends more on the range they are shot at but chances are they would be very "dead" as opposed to pricked and picked with the 1 1\8 no5. 

1oz no7 is 340 pellets, 1 1\16 no7 has 361 pellets,  1 1\16 no 6 is 287 pellets and 1 1\8 no5 is 247 pellets, but they are spread over the pattern, it is not as if every extra pellet in the cartridge hits the bird.

Birds shot with no7 also have significantly less bruising than those shot with no5, no4, etc, so even an extra 4 to 2 hits per bird (which is all we are talking about if shooting at 25 to 40 yards) does not make the carcass inedible and they will likely still have less damage than those shot with no5 or larger.

Saying that, shooting full choke on birds 15 yards out will make them inedible, no matter the cartridge and my guess is that wastes far more than an extra pellet or two from no7.

Good post.

[Old farrier]

3 hours ago, neutron619 said:

But wasn't that always the case, really?

This (sub-)forum is a pretty self-selecting group of folk who are actually interested in cartridges, how they work and perform and want to talk about them. Oh - and 6.5x55SE who seems to get most of his sport here, I suppose. The number of people who actually bother to read / research enough to want to join in here aren't "average shooters" in that regard.

I'd say the "average shooter" is the one who goes to the shop once a season and asks for cartridges for pheasant or partridge, can probably answer which brand and whether he wants #5, #6 or #7 on the basis of whether he had a good season with them last time but gets hung up (a la Shooting Times etc.) on whether he should get a 30g or 32g cartridge and doesn't really know the answer - but blags it all the same depending on how fat his wallet is feeling that day. He doesn't care about wads, patterns or how hard the shot is - he just shoots the gun, is happy when it goes bang and hopefully hits some birds without caring much whether something about his kit was handicapping him.

Most folk are going to carry on exactly like that. The curious few will end up here, asking questions, testing stuff out, talking about it, answering questions as they always have and enjoying that. 6.5x55SE will keep trying to shoot them down, still not realising that just because we like to talk about this stuff, we are aware of how much (or little) difference it makes in the field. The world will continue to turn on its axis. OK -  a few more guns will probably get ruined when HP steel goes down Damascus barrels through ignorance, but I imagine most of the work will be done by RFDs who will steer customers away from stuff that will endanger them, just as they do now.

Looking like I’m one of the curious so I’ll ask a few questions 

1  does anyone know what load is used to superior steel proof a gun? 
 

2  the pellet count for steel compared to lead 

3 has anyone on here ever (not a mate) blown up a gun while using it 

I’m asking because I’m curious 

[London Best]

3. I know someone who has TRIED to blow one up.......and failed. 
The 20 bore shell ahead of the 12 bore shell was simply fired straight down range.

[wymberley]

9 hours ago, wymberley said:

What has changed regarding the use of steel shot - and in particular any legislative change - that has seemingly - I can’t seem to find it - caused the comprehensive piece by BASC which made everything perfectly clear to be removed?

On the odd chance that anyone can make use of it, it's still here:

CIP/SAAMI Regulations (steel-shot.com)

Edited November 26, 2022 by wymberley

[Old farrier]

24 minutes ago, London Best said:

3. I know someone who has TRIED to blow one up.......and failed. 
The 20 bore shell ahead of the 12 bore shell was simply fired straight down range.

3 actually blown one up ? 
not a friend 🙄

it’s important as if it actually happened to you we could get more information 

gun /type/make/circumstances ect along with pictures of barrels scored with steel forcing cone damage 

 

 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Looking like I’m one of the curious so I’ll ask a few questions 

1  does anyone know what load is used to superior steel proof a gun? 
 

2  the pellet count for steel compared to lead 

3 has anyone on here ever (not a mate) blown up a gun while using it 

I’m asking because I’m curious 

1 -

Proof of smooth bore guns designed to fire 12 bore steel shot cartridges. This proof is carried out as follows:

7.1 Three steel shot proof cartridges, loaded with shot of diameter 4.6 mm (between BB and AAA!), and with hardness values of VH1 between 80 and 110 (see para 1.1), are fired per barrel. Each proof cartridge must develop simultaneously: - a mean pressure of at least 137 MPa (1,370 bar) at the first measuring point; - a mean pressure of at least 50 MPa (500 bar) at the second measuring point; - for 12/70 cartridges a momentum Mo 15 Ns (see para 2.3); - for 12/73 or longer cartridges, a momentum Mo 17.5 Ns (see para 2.3).

7.2 If the shotgun, after proof firing, complies with CIP regulations and requirements, it will be marked with the Steel Shot proof (see para 3) and in any other way laid down in the CIP regulations.

 

2 -

Size  Diameter in mm  Diameter in Inches  Pellets per oz.

8/9  2.29mm  .09   

7  2.54mm  .10  422

6  2.79mm  .11  315

5  3.05mm  .12  243

4  3.25mm  .13  192

3  3.56mm  .14  158

2  3.81mm  .15  125

1  4.06mm  .16  103

B  4.32mm  .17  87

BB  4.57mm  .18  72

BBB  4.83mm  .19  62

T  5.08mm  .20  52

 

3 -

The little shotgun that could videos demonstrate how hard it is to blow up a gun.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAnbDvLIAac

1370bar is 19870psi, yet 44,000 to 55,000 psi cartridges are cable of being fired without the gun blowing up. Unless there is an obstruction in barrel, steel only really stretches the thinner area behind the choke wider... Guns do not blow up from it.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Stonepark

[wymberley]

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

On the odd chance that anyone can make use of it, it's still here:

CIP/SAAMI Regulations (steel-shot.com)

Someone did. Here's the same for 20 bore:

Proof of smooth bore guns designed to fire 20 bore steel shot cartridges. This proof is to be conducted as follows: 

8.1 Three proof cartridges, each loaded with steel shot pellets of 3.7 mm diameter (English no.1) and having a hardness value of between 80 and 110 VH1 (see para 1.1), are to be fired per barrel. Each proof cartridge must develop simultaneously:  a mean pressure of at least 137 MPa (1,370 bar) at the first measuring point ? a mean pressure of at least 50 MPa (500 bar) at the second measuring point ? a momentum Mo 14.5 Ns (see para 2.3). 

8.2 If the weapon, after being fired, complies with CIP specifications then it is to be marked with the Steel Shot proof mark (see para 3) and any other markings as laid down in CIP regulations.

Edited November 26, 2022 by wymberley

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Someone did. Here's the same for 20 bore:

Proof of smooth bore guns designed to fire 20 bore steel shot cartridges. This proof is to be conducted as follows: 

8.1 Three proof cartridges, each loaded with steel shot pellets of 3.7 mm diameter (English no.1) and having a hardness value of between 80 and 110 VH1 (see para 1.1), are to be fired per barrel. Each proof cartridge must develop simultaneously:  a mean pressure of at least 137 MPa (1,370 bar) at the first measuring point ? a mean pressure of at least 50 MPa (500 bar) at the second measuring point ? a momentum Mo 14.5 Ns (see para 2.3). 

8.2 If the weapon, after being fired, complies with CIP specifications then it is to be marked with the Steel Shot proof mark (see para 3) and any other markings as laid down in CIP regulations.

I see the hardness of the material used 

 

but is that steel?  
seems a bit soft for steel/iron  to me 

[wymberley]

1 minute ago, Old farrier said:

I see the hardness of the material used 

 

but is that steel?  
seems a bit soft for steel/iron  to me 

That's the trouble with American; it sounds just like English. Steel shot never has been it's soft iron.

[Old farrier]

53 minutes ago, wymberley said:

That's the trouble with American; it sounds just like English. Steel shot never has been it's soft iron.

But it seems very soft for even soft iron almost as soft as hardened lead  

 

2 hours ago, Stonepark said:

1 -

Proof of smooth bore guns designed to fire 12 bore steel shot cartridges. This proof is carried out as follows:

7.1 Three steel shot proof cartridges, loaded with shot of diameter 4.6 mm (between BB and AAA!), and with hardness values of VH1 between 80 and 110 (see para 1.1), are fired per barrel. Each proof cartridge must develop simultaneously: - a mean pressure of at least 137 MPa (1,370 bar) at the first measuring point; - a mean pressure of at least 50 MPa (500 bar) at the second measuring point; - for 12/70 cartridges a momentum Mo 15 Ns (see para 2.3); - for 12/73 or longer cartridges, a momentum Mo 17.5 Ns (see para 2.3).

7.2 If the shotgun, after proof firing, complies with CIP regulations and requirements, it will be marked with the Steel Shot proof (see para 3) and in any other way laid down in the CIP regulations.

 

2 -

Size  Diameter in mm  Diameter in Inches  Pellets per oz.

8/9  2.29mm  .09   

7  2.54mm  .10  422

6  2.79mm  .11  315

5  3.05mm  .12  243

4  3.25mm  .13  192

3  3.56mm  .14  158

2  3.81mm  .15  125

1  4.06mm  .16  103

B  4.32mm  .17  87

BB  4.57mm  .18  72

BBB  4.83mm  .19  62

T  5.08mm  .20  52

 

3 -

The little shotgun that could videos demonstrate how hard it is to blow up a gun.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAnbDvLIAac

1370bar is 19870psi, yet 44,000 to 55,000 psi cartridges are cable of being fired without the gun blowing up. Unless there is an obstruction in barrel, steel only really stretches the thinner area behind the choke wider... Guns do not blow up from it.

Many thanks for your time in posting this information 

nice little video not scientific but useful to watch 

[Sweet11-87]

not to insult anyone but to me the worrying part is this isnt new regulation or methods. the fleur de lis has been the mark of  "high performance" and the 3rd tier proofing for nearly 20 years.  standard and superior tier 1 and tier 2 proofing has been used since the mid 50s. if youve shot a duck or goose since 1999  its your buisness to understand this stuff. not to say your gun wont handle it it just means its not been tested to make sure.

 

just google uk proof marks go to images and save 1 of the hundreds of diagram images. and check your guns its really not that confusing or difficult  you dont even have to read its  picture based

and just to make apsolutly sure you cant mix it up most if not all "high performance" steel loads are stamped on the box with the fleur de lis or say high performance on the box and many also on every single cartridge

i  understand number crunching and  data is a bit stuffed shirt for some but when your detonating explosions in metal tubes that generate tonnes of force inches from your face often alone in the middle of nowhere you really should make it your buisness to understand what exactly these symbols mean and get a basic grasp of what your gun/cartrdge combo is doing

 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

But it seems very soft for even soft iron almost as soft as hardened lead  

 

Many thanks for your time in posting this information 

nice little video not scientific but useful to watch 

Coming out of my comfort zone now but imagine with your profession you'll understand better than me (aircraft = aluminium). With the Vickers quoted, mild steel is 140 whereas our 'steel' is 80 to 110. The Brinell equivalent for this is 76 to 105 and on this system hardened lead is down at 22.

[Stephen-H]

23 hours ago, Stephen-H said:

Picked this box up of there 32gram 3's Pro eco about 12 months ago from mickley Hall they were a sort of bin ends sale with other boxes of cartridges I got at the time. I'm still yet to try them after reading some of the posts on here it is a bit worrying with the age & wads possibly breaking down. I presume they are standard steel & not high performance can't find anything on the box stating High performance so I imagine 1/4 & 1/2 choke would be fine & just check the barrels after a shot for possible wad problems 

Update on these shot them tonight at the pigeons didn't have a single issue with failing wads /blocked barrs etc I agree with the mess/fouling they leave in the barrel but I've shot lyalvale cartridges that were worse. The pigeons i did hit were stone dead in the air will post a picture up of the inside of the barrels & the contents after cleaning them. 

[Scully]

23 hours ago, 8 shot said:

Read the bottom line of the top of the box !

Right. From subsequent posts it’s all clear now; what I didn’t understand was how someone could come to the conclusion it ‘clearly isn’t an HP load’ from the words ‘only to be used in steel proof guns’! 
Just to add, around 12 years ago or more I was putting Gamebore 32g Super steel 3’s through a Winchester 101 Diamond Grade 1/2 choke, and a Browning 2000 self loader fixed 3/4 choke. These are not standard steel cartridges as far as I’m aware. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Scully

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Right. From subsequent posts it’s all clear now; what I didn’t understand was how someone could come to the conclusion it ‘clearly isn’t an HP load’ from the words ‘only to be used in steel proof guns’! 

Because it doesn't say it is, it has to state on the box and cartridge it is a HP load, as i have said before

[Scully]

24 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Because it doesn't say it is, it has to state on the box and cartridge it is a HP load, as i have said before

Eh? When I queried ‘wasn’t 3 shot HP’, you told me to read the bottom line of the box, which simply states ‘only to be used in steel shot proofed guns’. 
Now, I’ll admit I haven’t bought any modern steel shot cartridges of late due to an extensive stock of SAGA and Gamebore Super Steel cartridges, but I haven’t seen any boxes marked HP, so is this recent legislation? 
However, Gamebore, as I’ve said above, stipulate their 32grm 3’s are high performance and should only be used in guns marked with a fleur de lis. 

Here's another question. 🙂 If the Eley cartridges in the photo’ in question are just standard steel and not HP, then why does it state on the box, as you rightly point out ‘only to be used in steel shot proofed guns’ ? Because as we all know, your gun doesn’t have to be proofed for steel to use standard steel. 🤷‍♂️

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Eh? When I queried ‘wasn’t 3 shot HP’, you told me to read the bottom line of the box, which simply states ‘only to be used in steel shot proofed guns’. 
Now, I’ll admit I haven’t bought any modern steel shot cartridges of late due to an extensive stock of SAGA and Gamebore Super Steel cartridges, but I haven’t seen any boxes marked HP, so is this recent legislation? 
However, Gamebore, as I’ve said above, stipulate their 32grm 3’s are high performance and should only be used in guns marked with a fleur de lis. 

Here's another question. 🙂 If the Eley cartridges in the photo’ in question are just standard steel and not HP, then why does it state on the box, as you rightly point out ‘only to be used in steel shot proofed guns’ ? Because as we all know, your gun doesn’t have to be proofed for steel to use standard steel. 🤷‍♂️

Think we also know there is no standard steel proof 

only HP fleur de lyes proof 

just to add 😉

[Sweet11-87]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Eh? When I queried ‘wasn’t 3 shot HP’, you told me to read the bottom line of the box, which simply states ‘only to be used in steel shot proofed guns’. 
Now, I’ll admit I haven’t bought any modern steel shot cartridges of late due to an extensive stock of SAGA and Gamebore Super Steel cartridges, but I haven’t seen any boxes marked HP, so is this recent legislation? 
However, Gamebore, as I’ve said above, stipulate their 32grm 3’s are high performance and should only be used in guns marked with a fleur de lis. 

Here's another question. 🙂 If the Eley cartridges in the photo’ in question are just standard steel and not HP, then why does it state on the box, as you rightly point out ‘only to be used in steel shot proofed guns’ ? Because as we all know, your gun doesn’t have to be proofed for steel to use standard steel. 🤷‍♂️

1. gamebore super steel can be bought in  5s 4s and 3s. the 5s and 4s are standard steel the 3s are high performance.  as the larger shot cannot compress, move and deform as easy as the smaller shot. It can cause pressure at the muzzle creating barrel bulges. its not just chamber pressure  that is tested at proofing. The rule of thumb is no more than half choke for anything over shot size 4  but its recommendation not requirment. The size 3 shot super steel boxes are stamped accordingly, id imagine when made gamebore wanted the best performance possible from standard proof so are probably right up against the margin and the backpressure from 3s tips them into fleur de lis territory. As stated earlier the eley 3s eco wad are standard steel but they are also shifting 200fps slower than the super steel 3s and likley dont generate the back pressure

 

2. all steel cartridge boxes regardless of standard or high performance have this "steel shot proofed guns" warning i imagine its probably to cover the manufacturer against people putting them through firearms proofed pre 1954 which is the date we started using the current standard we use and what cartridge manufacturers work too. as a note proof authoritys wont give guidance on guns pre 1954 and just tell you to get them reproofed.

 

i think this is were the confusion is calling it steel proofed as none of the 3 proof tiers are for steel its a pressure rating (standard,superior and high performance) it just happens that at the higer end of these ratings is usually reserved for  loads that are steel due the the pressure spikes generated by the powders used and how steel shot columns behave moving up the barrel.

 

long winded but hope it helps

Edited November 26, 2022 by Sweet11-87