Teslas not charging in the cold

[Rupert]

I had a really old sherpa van,diesel back in the eighties, it would never start, nobody binned diesel off as a bad idea,they sorted it in time. Get used to the demise of the ICe as there are too many people sucking on that finite resource, in fact on all resources. I dont believe EV is the answer as the mining is too onerous on the planet. Also i am thinking all those dead batteries will be the asbestos of the future. 

[243deer]

On 06/01/2023 at 16:54, udderlyoffroad said:

The Norwegians have embraced them wholehartedly

Errrrmmmm - not quite it seems

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/01/norwegian-shipping-company-bans-electrified-vehicles-over-fire-fears/

[Newbie to this]

14 hours ago, Mungler said:

Wonder why they’re selling so many now?

Might have something to do with the tax incentives. 

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Might have something to do with the tax incentives. 

Quite possibly. That’s a strong reason as any to buy one ie they are cheaper / more economic for some people.

Or that per mile they are cheaper to run and more fun behind the wheel. 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Rupert said:

I had a really old sherpa van,diesel back in the eighties, it would never start, nobody binned diesel off as a bad idea,they sorted it in time. Get used to the demise of the ICe as there are too many people sucking on that finite resource, in fact on all resources. I dont believe EV is the answer as the mining is too onerous on the planet. Also i am thinking all those dead batteries will be the asbestos of the future. 

I went round a friends house a couple of weeks ago and they were in the process of sacking off gas and running their house 100% electric with a ton of solar panels and a dirty great big Tesla battery at the heart of the house. 

Batteries and battery storage are the big thing of the future and we’re still on only the second rung of that ladder. They say necessity is the mother of all invention and whilst there was a plentiful supply of materials to make a battery and no real massive market place demand, we had the same basic battery technology for decades, or until now when everyone started to throw the kitchen sink at developing battery technologies. 

Recycling batteries has to follow. Mind you they never really got on top of car tyres or asbestos as you mention. 

[London Best]

23 hours ago, Mungler said:

 

This is a stock £50k on the road car (with a 7 year 100k mile warranty). It’s been built as an EV from the chassis up and so has 50/50 weight distribution and handles well despite being so heavy. It’s 0-60 is 3 seconds, top speed knocking 170 mph and it eats M3s, 911s, AMG Mercs for breakfast.

Round the Nurburgring.  This has no relevance in the real world.

23 hours ago, Mungler said:

People moan that EVs are too expensive but comparatively they’re not. They afford even a teacher or a (well paid) train driver the means to stuff a £250,000+ super car at the lights. EVs are the embodiment of levelling up 😆

Once again, no relevance to the real world. Only a very small percentage of people who want to drive like a T. W. A. T. fantasies about “stuffing a £250,000 super car at the lights”

[Mungler]

52 minutes ago, London Best said:

 

An EV is not for you then. 

I appreciate that people want different things from cars at different points of their life. Indeed, it’s rare for a single twenty something to want a people carrier with cracking fuel economy and it’s more likely they’ll be looking for something nippy or a roof that goes down 😀

So, just searching on Autotrader for all cars currently for sale that book a 0-60 in under 5 seconds, it turns out there are 27,015 cars that fit that bill. There’s 126,121 cars that have a 0-60 in under 8 seconds.

That’s a lot of cars that are only fit for the Nurburgring according to you. I wonder why the motor manufacturers make so many? It could be that people who aren’t you may want one?

[London Best]

For posing, and bragging in the pub.

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, London Best said:

For posing, and bragging in the pub.

You sound like a right barrel of laughs 😀

So, F1 motor racing, Le Mans 24 hour, Paris Dakar, Indy 500 (and so on) and the tech that falls out of all motor racing from ABS to paddle shift (and so on) and then trickling into hyper / super cars and then into normal cars… 

I’d love to hear your take on Ferraris, a Lamborghinis, Porsches, high end Mercs and BMWs - huge industries and brands all just for posing and bragging eh? We should ban them all and force everyone to have Trabants that are limited to 55 mph? 

[Gordon R]

I am unsure where the assumption that if you like nippy cars, you are some kind of poser. My eldest has had nippy motors for many years - first car was a 2.0 litre Sierra, progressing through Mondeo ST200, Focus ST 170, Mondeo 2.5 turbo, Merc ML350, Volkswagen Touareg (big horsepower model), Mercedes E Class, Mercedes CLS 350 AMG and now has Mercedes EQ400 electric. He doesn't drive like an idiot and has never had an accident claim against him. No speeding or traffic offences. He would sooner drive a nippy motor than a slug.

We were driving back from Huddersfield this morning, in his wife's V Class Mercedes and I asked him how he was getting on with his EQ, as he has had it for about 4 months. Loves the performance, but won't be going on holiday in it. 

As Mungler has repeatedly said and taken stick for some obscure reason - if you like one and can afford one - give them a try. If you don't like them be content to let others like the. They aren't perfect and range is a consideration, but they do have advantages.

I have no axe to grind, as I won't be getting one. They aren't versatile enough if you are running one motor. If you run a couple, as we did for 30 years, they make sense.

[Mungler]

2 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Loves the performance, but won't be going on holiday in it. 

 

Nail on head.

[Westward]

7 hours ago, Mungler said:

Or that per mile they are cheaper to run  

Only as long as you can charge it at home.

Several recent tests pointed out that longer journeys in a standard EV using public fast charge points - if you can find one that works - cost significantly more than petrol cars for the same journey and take significantly longer door to door.

There are 100s of thousands of people in this country living in houses with no on property parking or in blocks or towers of flats who will have to rely on the few public charge points for which the infrastructure is years away. Here in Glos, as with most shire counties, there are dozens of small villages tucked away miles from any town. For the residents personal transport is essential as buses are virtually extinct. How will EVs work for them if they don't have private parking? No charging infrastructure company is going to install charge points for a dozen people who only use their car twice a week.

Boris' idiotic, knee jerk law banning new ice powered cars by 2030 is a fantasy dreamt up by people who have no clue what life is like for the majority in this country.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Westward

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Westward said:

Only as long as you can charge it at home.

Several recent tests pointed out that longer journeys in a standard EV using public fast charge points - if you can find one that works - cost significantly more than petrol cars for the same journey and take significantly longer door to door.

There are 100s of thousands of people in this country living in houses with no on property parking or in blocks or towers of flats who will have to rely on the few public charge points for which the infrastructure is years away. Here in Glos, as with most shire counties, there are dozens of small villages tucked away miles from any town. For the residents personal transport is essential as buses are virtually extinct. How will EVs work for them if they don't have private parking? No charging infrastructure company is going to install charge points for a dozen people who only use their car twice a week.

Boris' idiotic, knee jerk law banning new ice powered cars by 2030 is a fantasy dreamt up by people who have no clue what life is like for the majority in this country.

Again, one more time. 

I have a charger at home, I have off street parking, my daily commute is less than 15 miles each way. Electric cars are ideal for me. They are also ideal for my business partner (who has an EV) and 2 members of our staff who separately and independently bought their own EVs (BMW i3 and some Peugeot jobby) and who have off street parking and home charging.

Everyone else at work has a petrol car and that’s great for them.

Using work as a random example sample, 13% of people have pure EVs and I’d say another 20% have hybrids. Go back 2 years and it would be zero for both pure EV and hybrid. I wonder what the stats will be in another 2 years.

 

[udderlyoffroad]

15 hours ago, Mungler said:

Again, one more time. 

I'd save your metaphorical breath.

I've written it on here before: "these horseless carriages will never catch on"   Seemingly am being too conceited or too up myself with this remark for some posters to understand what I mean.

A hundred years ago, all a certain group of old farts saw when an early car went by, were the problems & costs associated with running one.  They knew and understood horses, and to them they were 'peak technology'.  They just couldn't envisage things changing.  A very similar situation exists now.

The point is not that EVs are a drop-in replacement for all applications now, it's that the technology is coming.  Absolutely, with current battery technology, EVs don't work for certain applications.  What's slightly surprising to me is that this 'current' generation of old farts grew up with battery-powered milk floats delivering to their doors daily - EV's have been practicable, for some applications, since the 60s!!  Equally, back then, nobody was seriously suggesting milk-float technology be used a replacement for a sales rep's Ford Anglia either.

And this persistant idea that people without driveways or dedicated parking will be unable to charge their cars?  Absolute hogwash.  True, there have been a few lamppost-based ham-fisted attempts that don't work too well, but the idea that we can't solve the problem that is a cable strewn across a pavement is pure defeatism.

A final thought: Even the likes of Clarkson & James May have opined than an electric motor is superior to an ICE as means of powering a car, for many reasons. Torque curve, orders of magnitude fewer moving parts, RAM, no need to idle the thing...It's just that how precisely you power that motor isn't a settled question yet.

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I'd save your metaphorical breath.

I've written it on here before: "these horseless carriages will never catch on"   Seemingly am being too conceited or too up myself with this remark for some posters to understand what I mean.

A hundred years ago, all a certain group of old farts saw when an early car went by, were the problems & costs associated with running one.  They knew and understood horses, and to them they were 'peak technology'.  They just couldn't envisage things changing.  A very similar situation exists now.

The point is not that EVs are a drop-in replacement for all applications now, it's that the technology is coming.  Absolutely, with current battery technology, EVs don't work for certain applications.  What's slightly surprising to me is that this 'current' generation of old farts grew up with battery-powered milk floats delivering to their doors daily - EV's have been practicable, for some applications, since the 60s!!  Equally, back then, nobody was seriously suggesting milk-float technology be used a replacement for a sales rep's Ford Anglia either.

And this persistant idea that people without driveways or dedicated parking will be unable to charge their cars?  Absolute hogwash.  True, there have been a few lamppost-based ham-fisted attempts that don't work too well, but the idea that we can't solve the problem that is a cable strewn across a pavement is pure defeatism.

A final thought: Even the likes of Clarkson & James May have opined than an electric motor is superior to an ICE as means of powering a car, for many reasons. Torque curve, orders of magnitude fewer moving parts, RAM, no need to idle the thing...It's just that how precisely you power that motor isn't a settled question yet.

 

Thank you. It was getting to be a bit of a struggle.

My brother has had EV's since 2012 and for every year I would take the mickey out of him and his various milk floats. Like me, he would argue the corner of the EV and then after time he would say "you'll see what it's all about when you get one". How right he was.

 

 

[Westward]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I'd save your metaphorical breath.

I've written it on here before: "these horseless carriages will never catch on"   Seemingly am being too conceited or too up myself with this remark for some posters to understand what I mean.

A hundred years ago, all a certain group of old farts saw when an early car went by, were the problems & costs associated with running one.  They knew and understood horses, and to them they were 'peak technology'.  They just couldn't envisage things changing.  A very similar situation exists now.

The point is not that EVs are a drop-in replacement for all applications now, it's that the technology is coming.  Absolutely, with current battery technology, EVs don't work for certain applications.  What's slightly surprising to me is that this 'current' generation of old farts grew up with battery-powered milk floats delivering to their doors daily - EV's have been practicable, for some applications, since the 60s!!  Equally, back then, nobody was seriously suggesting milk-float technology be used a replacement for a sales rep's Ford Anglia either.

And this persistant idea that people without driveways or dedicated parking will be unable to charge their cars?  Absolute hogwash.  True, there have been a few lamppost-based ham-fisted attempts that don't work too well, but the idea that we can't solve the problem that is a cable strewn across a pavement is pure defeatism.

A final thought: Even the likes of Clarkson & James May have opined than an electric motor is superior to an ICE as means of powering a car, for many reasons. Torque curve, orders of magnitude fewer moving parts, RAM, no need to idle the thing...It's just that how precisely you power that motor isn't a settled question yet.

How amazingly patronising. 

I haven't ever said EVs will always be useless except for short to medium runs. No doubt they will get better - but that's not the issue. Charging is the issue, both availability of charge points and time spent charging, and there's no way that problem can be properly and fully resolved by 2030. the National Grid is in trouble today 23rd Jan, and paying consumers to limit use between 5 and 6 to avoid the eye watering costs of starting up coal power. How will they cope with 30 or 40 million EVs in 15 years or so?

If people want to drive an EV that's okay but I don't, and I suspect that a majority feel the same way. 

[udderlyoffroad]

48 minutes ago, Westward said:

How amazingly patronising

Already told you I was conceited and  up myself 😂

 

48 minutes ago, Westward said:

I haven't ever said EVs will always be useless except for short to medium runs.

Not sure my previous post was direct at you specifically...

 

49 minutes ago, Westward said:

Charging is the issue, both availability of charge points and time spent charging, and there's no way that problem can be properly and fully resolved by 2030.

What's this 2030 deadline got to do with the price of fish?  At the moment it's a ban on sales of new ICE passenger vehicles.  Prediction: it won't happen in 2030, it'll be delayed.  Or if it does, suddenly pickups will get exceedingly popular.  In any case, that's still 7 years away.  Technology moves at a fast pace.

 

51 minutes ago, Westward said:

the National Grid is in trouble today 23rd Jan, and paying consumers to limit use between 5 and 6 to avoid the eye watering costs of starting up coal power.

Agreed, energy policy in this country is bat **** insane.  Devised originally by Ed Miliband, and the various coalition/tory governments since have done nothing to change it, only make it worse.

I actually started a thread on what people were doing to prepare for the (increasingly realistic) prospect of rolling blackouts this winter, and was poo-poo'd.

53 minutes ago, Westward said:

How will they cope with 30 or 40 million EVs in 15 years or so?

It may actually help the grid, as solar and wind both need energy storage.  Guess what, if a significant majority of (suburban) households suddenly have this hulking great battery parked in their drive...

It's possible, today*, to charge your EV up at night on the cheaper rate, and use the electricity in your house during the day.

This doesn't negate the fact the we have a massive shortfall in domestic generation capacity in this country, today.  EV's will only add to the problem, but it's not all negative, they may in fact be part of the solution.

*Though admittedly not in the UK yet

56 minutes ago, Westward said:

If people want to drive an EV that's okay but I don't, and I suspect that a majority feel the same way.

But will you at least concede it's possible that technology will change to the extent that, at some point, you may feel differently?

I don't have one yet either, and it will likely be a long time before I get one too. But I don't look at the current state of affairs and expect it to remain static.

I drive a pick up, and there just isn't one on the market yet, for a good reason.  Drag increases with the square of speed, so a pickup towing any sort of trailer has real range issues....see video I  linked to above.