Scully Posted June 29, 2023 Report Share Posted June 29, 2023 3 minutes ago, Gas seal said: The game keeper was sentenced today. He said in court all game keepers kill birds of prey. I wonder if people are going to shoot on the shoots were this is happening. Another black mark on all shooters. BASC should ask members to keep away from any of these shoots. At least name them in the magazines. Despite what he claims, not ‘all game keepers kill birds of prey’, and I seriously doubt they would leave them in plain view if they did. I don’t know of any keepers who kill birds of prey, and I seriously doubt many shooters do. It’s not legal and certainly not good for business. Any gun paying for a day on a commercial shoot will be totally unaware of what the keeper does, and having paid for the day will no doubt rightly assume everything is above board. I also doubt syndicate members would approve if they knew their keeper was up to no good….I certainly wouldn’t. Do we know who this keepers employer was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 29, 2023 Report Share Posted June 29, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, Gas seal said: He said in court all game keepers kill birds of prey. I (and I'm sure a lot of users here) know several gamekeepers, both professional and part time 'amateurs'. They do NOT kill birds of prey. They know the law and comply. Edited June 30, 2023 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted June 29, 2023 Report Share Posted June 29, 2023 The game keeper was also fined for a number of firearms and shotgun offences, killing a woodpigeon and releasing pheasants. Last year a game keeper from the same area was convicted for killing birds of prey, firearms and shot gun offences and keeping poison. I wonder who there referees were for their firearms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 9 hours ago, Gas seal said: The game keeper was also fined for a number of firearms and shotgun offences, killing a woodpigeon and releasing pheasants. Last year a game keeper from the same area was convicted for killing birds of prey, firearms and shot gun offences and keeping poison. I wonder who there referees were for their firearms. I’m wondering who their employer was? Got a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushandpull Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 Regarding the goshawks, he was convicted of possession of dead schedule 1 birds (which had been shot) via a DNA swab from one of the birds. Apparently he found them, removed them and then put them back as I understand it.Who shot them remains a matter of speculation. Aye right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 15 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: I (and I'm sure a lot of users here) know several gamekeepers, both professional and part time 'amateurs'. They do NOT kill birds of prey. They know the law and comply. most of the keepers I know and have known keep/kept a fairly closed shop of what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, old'un said: most of the keepers I know and have known keep/kept a fairly closed shop of what they do. I used to run a shoot and (not at the same time) had 3 keepers - and know several others. For us (and other estates I know), the law was/is the law. You may not agree with it, but you comply with it. Keepers know that having the shoot running is what pays their wages, and if the shoot closes (which it would in a major breach of the law) - they are out of a job - and other estates will know the history of why they are in that situation. I've no doubt it does happen, but I don't think it is widespread at all - certainly round here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 15 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: I used to run a shoot and (not at the same time) had 3 keepers - and know several others. For us (and other estates I know), the law was/is the law. You may not agree with it, but you comply with it. Keepers know that having the shoot running is what pays their wages, and if the shoot closes (which it would in a major breach of the law) - they are out of a job - and other estates will know the history of why they are in that situation. I've no doubt it does happen, but I don't think it is widespread at all - certainly round here. well done them for telling you they are complying with the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 My only interest in this court case was the killing of a woodpigeon. This man was a game keeper. I would have thought a game keeper would control woodpigeon and maybe sell woodpigeon shooting. I would have thought this would be of interest as this is a pigeon shooting website. All the discussion about the general licences and the reasons for shooting woodpigeon on this website and a game keeper was prosecuted for killing one . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 25 minutes ago, Gas seal said: My only interest in this court case was the killing of a woodpigeon. This man was a game keeper. I would have thought a game keeper would control woodpigeon and maybe sell woodpigeon shooting. I would have thought this would be of interest as this is a pigeon shooting website. All the discussion about the general licences and the reasons for shooting woodpigeon on this website and a game keeper was prosecuted for killing one . as you say a little worrying as the police do not give any circumstances for the offence of killing a woodpigeon...https://www.suffolk.police.uk/news/latest-news/man-sentenced-offences-relation-birds-prey-found-dead-west-suffolk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 minute ago, old'un said: as the police do not give any circumstances for the offence of killing a woodpigeon My understanding is that any quarry killed outside the terms of the appropriate license would be illegal. For a pigeon, that would be GL42 and pigeons are covered IF damaging livestock foods/feeding and/or spreading disease - or damaging crops fruit and vegetables. It would be up to the person using the license to show that the pigeon was 'damaging' feeds or crops, fruit and veg. There are also sections that before shooting you should have taken other (less lethal such as scarers) methods - and those have proved unsatisfactory. There are also certain specific people (previous offenders mainly) who may not use the license. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wild-birds-licence-to-kill-or-take-to-prevent-serious-damage-gl42/gl42-general-licence-to-kill-or-take-certain-species-of-wild-birds-to-prevent-serious-damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 48 minutes ago, Gas seal said: My only interest in this court case was the killing of a woodpigeon. This man was a game keeper. I would have thought a game keeper would control woodpigeon and maybe sell woodpigeon shooting. I would have thought this would be of interest as this is a pigeon shooting website. All the discussion about the general licences and the reasons for shooting woodpigeon on this website and a game keeper was prosecuted for killing one . In the link provided by Old’un, there is no mention of the man being a gamekeeper, nor any mention of gamekeeping at all, unless I’ve missed it. 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Scully said: In the link provided by Old’un, there is no mention of the man being a gamekeeper, nor any mention of gamekeeping at all, unless I’ve missed it. 🤷♂️ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-66055112 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old'un Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 33 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: My understanding is that any quarry killed outside the terms of the appropriate license would be illegal. For a pigeon, that would be GL42 and pigeons are covered IF damaging livestock foods/feeding and/or spreading disease - or damaging crops fruit and vegetables. It would be up to the person using the license to show that the pigeon was 'damaging' feeds or crops, fruit and veg. There are also sections that before shooting you should have taken other (less lethal such as scarers) methods - and those have proved unsatisfactory. There are also certain specific people (previous offenders mainly) who may not use the license. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wild-birds-licence-to-kill-or-take-to-prevent-serious-damage-gl42/gl42-general-licence-to-kill-or-take-certain-species-of-wild-birds-to-prevent-serious-damage so what were the circumstances for his prosecution?, did they catch him shooting the pigeon? Did they find it in his possession? In his freezer? If its a case of the police finding him in possession of a dead pigeon and he was prosecuted for such then we all need to be worried, as I am sure most of us have a few frozen birds in the freezer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 42 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-66055112 Grand. Thankyou. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 Hi Scully i don’t know how to do links on the website, if you go to rapture persecution U.K. on the website and press the blog sign it gives details. The article of the court case l think is the third one down. I ask the younger family members to find these website for me very interesting reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, Gas seal said: Hi Scully i don’t know how to do links on the website, if you go to rapture persecution U.K. on the website and press the blog sign it gives details. The article of the court case l think is the third one down. I ask the younger family members to find these website for me very interesting reading. No worries. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 26 minutes ago, old'un said: so what were the circumstances for his prosecution?, did they catch him shooting the pigeon? Did they find it in his possession? In his freezer? If its a case of the police finding him in possession of a dead pigeon and he was prosecuted for such then we all need to be worried, as I am sure most of us have a few frozen birds in the freezer. I have no idea what the circumstances of his prosecution were. My guess is that when the goshawk case file was being made up, they looked at compliance with all other relevant legislation - and found more non compliances. On having pigeons, everyone shooting pigeons, corvids or anything other than legitimate game (or clays!) should ensure that they comply with the terms of the license (to which I included a link). If they don't - there would be (at least a risk of) a prosecution. It isn't really difficult if you are doing it to protect crops/animal feed etc., but you might need to show that you have tried other methods (e.g. scarer, scarecrow) without success and to know what feed/crop/fruit etc. is being damaged. The license doesn't allow for 'sport'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jall25 Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 I can only think his response to the question Why have you shot the pigeon Perhaps made no reference to the licence under which he shot it Maybe he said - just to eat or something Again just speculation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 As above, sport doesn’t come into the equation and nowhere does it say he shot it - possibly inappropriate use of traps. Also, was he actually authorised to kill pigeon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 Hi JohnfromUK i don’t know why or how the man killed the woodpigeon. With regards to crop damage the legislation is covered in GL42 footnote number 6 . And this is what he would have to show the court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Gas seal said: Hi JohnfromUK i don’t know why or how the man killed the woodpigeon. With regards to crop damage the legislation is covered in GL42 footnote number 6 . And this is what he would have to show the court. I don't know either, but maybe he had no suitable feeds/crops to protect either on the estate/shoot where he was employed - and no other local farmers from whom he had a request to deal with damaging pigeon? Just guesswork, but under GL42 you need to have suitable reason and also to have tried other non license subject measures to make sure you are using the license in line with it's conditions. My understanding is that IF you have a farmer who says "please help, my crop is being seriously damaged by pigeons and they take no notice of my banger or scarecrow" you will be safe. However, if you said I went roost shooting in the wood to have a bit of fun and get a few for a pie for Sunday dinner, you will very likely be in trouble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gas seal Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 The GL42 is to kill or take not just shoot. Anyone with authority can use it . If he had authority it means nothing at all if he can’t show how he acted under foot note number 6 . Maybe he thought the word game keeper would be all he needed to say instead of no comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 minute ago, Gas seal said: The GL42 is to kill or take not just shoot. Anyone with authority can use it . If he had authority it means nothing at all if he can’t show how he acted under foot note number 6 . Maybe he thought the word game keeper would be all he needed to say instead of no comment. Agreed. As you say - you need to tick all the right boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39TDS Posted June 30, 2023 Report Share Posted June 30, 2023 11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: However, if you said I went roost shooting in the wood to have a bit of fun and get a few for a pie for Sunday dinner, you will very likely be in trouble! Another fine example of how ridiculous this country has become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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