Unlawful changes to England gamebird release licence challenged by BASC

[Rewulf]

I'd also read your telegraph link again. 

We followed all the extra restrictions that the Government put in place in 2021 on the number of birds we could release on an SPA and in the 500m buffer zone and we thought it was done, but now they have decided to move the goal posts again without any warning and whilst avian flu is declining,” he said.

“Where we are in East Anglia was one of the worst areas for bird flu last year, but we saw no ill effects in our game. We saw dead geese and dead seagulls, but it didn’t impact the pheasants.

“The shoot has been running for more than 100 years and if they refuse a licence, it will be the death of us, and most probably the bird species the SPA is designated to protect. We have already spent thousands preparing.”

A Defra spokesman said: “We are currently experiencing the worst global outbreak of avian influenza on record and are taking all necessary steps to mitigate the impact and spread of the disease.

“Following a robust scientific assessment, we are having to limit the release of gamebirds in areas of conservation concern in an effort to reduce the impact of this insidious disease. We will review this change, alongside all available evidence, and modify the licence should the risk change

The case is solid, DEFRA say bird flu is a problem, hence the action, shoots say it isn't, as their livelihoods depend on it, so shall we ignore the scientists at DEFRA, or listen to the shoots affected? 

I'll say again, unless DEFRA say they've got it all wrong, and bird flu isn't an issue this year, your legal challenge hasn't got a partridge leg to stand on. 

[Penelope]

23 hours ago, grahamch said:

you are great at bashing the BASC but have little positive to say about anything, the last thing shooting sports need at the moment are numpties picking fault for the sake of it.

 

[Gordon R]

I have read a fair number of posts telling Rewulf that he is anti-shooting, anti BASC etc, but I don't recall one post refuting what he says, point by point. All posts seem to be generalised, head in the sand, referring him to links, or saying he already has his answer. If he has had his answer, please point me to it.. 

I have read the links and don't see the answer.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Gordon R

[Penelope]

6 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I have read a fair number of posts telling Rewulf that he is anti-shooting, anti BASC etc, but I don't recall one post refuting what he says, point by point. All posts seem to be generalised, head in the sand, referring him to links, or saying he already has is answer. If he has had his answer, please point me to it.. 

I have read the links and don't see the answer.

Ditto.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I'll say again, unless DEFRA say they've got it all wrong, and bird flu isn't an issue this year, your legal challenge hasn't got a partridge leg to stand on. 

I suggest it rather depends on the 'experts' within DEFRA and how much scrutiny their modelling has faced.  If they're using the same geniuses as they did for Foot and Mouth, or COVID....

In any case ;

1) They can also challenge the process, the 'how' the decision was arrived at, not just the decision itself.

2) BASC are not going show their hand by explaining their precise legal strategy on a public internet forum, nor how much they have in the kitty, nor how much of said fund they're willing to throw at this.

You'll get the answers to these unknowns in court.

But repeatedly pressing BASC for answers they can't give in public, is, IMO, opinion a waste everyone's time.

@Rewulf, I agree with a lot of what you post on other topics, but I'm afraid on this you're just asking for something you won't get. And if you did, the case would go pear-shaped and people would be knocking BASC for playing into the enemies hands by showing their cards.

I respectfully suggest putting your skills and energy towards something else - how about writing to your MP re that Lords members' bill attempting to criminalise the possession of lead ammo?

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I suggest it rather depends on the 'experts' within DEFRA and how much scrutiny their modelling has faced.

Game shoot owners scrutiny - 'None of our pheasants have died, so it's safe to ignore DEFRA' 

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

But repeatedly pressing BASC for answers they can't give in public, is, IMO, opinion a waste everyone's time.

I never actually expected an answer to be honest, but it's always amusing to ask questions from them, and wait for the tirade of abuse, and weak attempts at character assassination, hardly the hallmark of a respected organisation, but hey ho. 

 

3 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

respectfully suggest putting your skills and energy towards something else - how about writing to your MP re that Lords members' bill attempting to criminalise the possession of lead ammo?

I'm not worried about that at all 🤔 BASC have got our backs on that one.... 

[Gas seal]

If poultry keepers have to take bio security measures before letting their birds out how can shoots take bio security measures when releasing millions of birds into the environment. How can anyone try to keep millions of game birds away from wild birds. The government have websites and advice regarding avian flu, and updates. I think some people only read part of the general licences that suits what they want to do. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Click here for an update on GB News with input from BASC and NGO

[Conor O'Gorman]

Click here for an update on Shooting UK

[Penelope]

One of the 1,000 cuts to die by.

[Terry2016]

On 25/06/2023 at 21:06, clangerman said:

if thats the case you need to shut up shop because basc are the ones who called for a lead ban and screamed our best tool is toxic toxic louder than anyone else causing more damage to the shooting world than the antis ever will try taking your own advise matey! 

BASC ? when did BASC call for a lead ban ?

https://basc.org.uk/an-update-on-the-five-year-transition-towards-sustainable-ammunition/

if you look at that link you will see that there are a number of organisation supporting a transition away from lead shot. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

52 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

BASC ? when did BASC call for a lead ban ?

https://basc.org.uk/an-update-on-the-five-year-transition-towards-sustainable-ammunition/

if you look at that link you will see that there are a number of organisation supporting a transition away from lead shot. 

Well said and for many years, and long before the 2020 voluntary phase out of lead shot for live quarry with shotguns was launched by the shooting organisations, there has been relentless lobbying of government by antis for a complete ban on lead ammunition.

And all those attempts to ban lead ammunition have been successfully fought off and in recent years the voluntary phase out being encouraged by the shooting organisations away from lead shot for live quarry with shotguns has been key to avoiding any cliff edge.

The Health and Safety Executive continues its review of all uses of lead ammunition in England, Wales and Scotland and the next consultation will launch sometime this month and we need a significant well informed response to that.

Last year's consultation on the HSE lead ban proposals had 2,759 responses which was enough to delay the review process by six months. Hopefully more of us will respond to the next one.

For anyone reading this whose shoot is impacted by the exclusion of Special Protection Areas in England from GL43 the game bird releasing general licence please don't leave it just to your club chair or secretary - please also contact your MP to keep the pressure going.

For anyone reading this considering posting further misinformation about BASC's continued fight against a lead ammunition ban please click here to use that spare time to respond to the firearms consultation instead and encourage everyone you know to do the same.
 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Conor O'Gorman

[enfieldspares]

On 07/06/2023 at 19:35, Rewulf said:

But more harm will come to those same shoots when the lead ban comes in, and shooters in general decide not to renew.

This, Well put Sir.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Click here for BASC update

Click here for Shooting UK update

Click here for Salisbury Plain update

Edited July 20, 2023 by Conor O'Gorman

[Scully]

On 04/07/2023 at 23:09, enfieldspares said:

This, Well put Sir.

There are those to whom shooting is merely a past-time or hobby,  and those to whom it is a way of life.

In my opinion those in the former group are those least likely to renew in the advent of a total lead shot ban, and therefore least likely to respond to any consultation. 
Those in the latter group will fight on rather than give up, and continue to shoot in any way they can. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC accuses Defra of issuing illegal advice

[Gas seal]

Hi would it  be against the law regarding the 1831 game act for killing game out of season, 

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC accuses Defra of issuing illegal advice

From the link.

'BASC has sought legal advice and believes the Defra advice is at odds with the law contained within the Game Act 1831 and insists it leaves gamekeepers and shoot managers at risk of criminal charges.'

Im pretty sure DEFRA can use emergency powers when there is a need ?

IE , foot and mouth , avian flu ect, it may be at odds with a 200 year old law , but when necessity arises....However , BASC disagrees with that necessity.
'BASC also claims the advice has been issued in response to an avian influenza risk that is unproven.'

How is it 'unproven' ?

https://www.countryside-alliance.org/resources/news/updated-mitigation-strategy#:~:text=11th April 2023&text=Following ongoing monitoring using the,are in a Protection Zone.

Also from BASC

'Dr Marnie Lovejoy, BASC’s head of evidence and environmental law, said: “Defra has pulled this advice out of the hat as a half-baked response to a growing crisis of their own making. Defra knew about the potential licence changes in January this year, but its failure to publicise the changes until May meant it permitted hundreds of thousands of gamebirds to be reared knowing that they would never be released.'

Why can they not be released ?
The ruling only extends to 500M from a protected area, why can they not , in most cases , be released past this exclusion zone ?
It wont work for everyone, but in many , if not most cases, it should, is it not better than culling them ?

 

“It is shocking that Defra has allowed this situation to manifest to a point where an estimated 200 shoots are facing financial turmoil and potential illegal actions.'

Why do they have to do anything illegal ?
And as financial 'turmoil' goes , how many shoots did not survive the last 2 years of covid , surely that situation was far worse ?

 

[Gas seal]

Hi yes what are the illegal actions. Game birds in captivity are livestock not wild birds. Will they be  protected under the 1830 game act in captivity as well as the animal welfare act . How many birds could be culled , who would cull them. How long are they allowed to be in captivity for. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Rewulf @Gas seal if you are members of an affected shoot and have legal queries beyond what is contained in the update please email me and I will pass them onto our team for review and to help your shoot.

[Rewulf]

15 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@Rewulf @Gas seal if you are members of an affected shoot and have legal queries beyond what is contained in the update please email me and I will pass them onto our team for review and to help your shoot.

Ill take it from that reply , that Im not spreading disinformation this time then ? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 27/07/2023 at 15:27, Rewulf said:

Ill take it from that reply , that Im not spreading disinformation this time then ? 

I don't know what your intention is but from your posts you come across as anti-shooting which is a pity because with the spare time you spend trolling to derail threads on here you could be doing great work to protect and promote shooting on here. For example, your engagement and positive support on the PW threads on the firearms consultation and the United Utilities issue would be a great start. I am also still waiting for that chat on the phone you promised many moons ago. I am not engaging further with you on this thread so you may as well keep your avalanche of further questions and postulations on hold and do the decent thing and DM me to arrange a chat. 

[Rewulf]

15 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I don't know what your intention is but from your posts you come across as anti-shooting

And you have managed to glean this opinion from what , that I occasionally question BASCs policy and intentions ?
Does 2+2=5 Conor ?

 

15 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

because with the spare time you spend trolling to derail threads on here you could be doing great work to protect and promote shooting on here.

I spend a great deal of time promoting all manner of shooting sports, I offer advice on PW and the SD , I run 2 target clubs , and introduce and coach  novices on clays and pest control, but Im anti shooting ?

 

15 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I am also still waiting for that chat on the phone you promised many moons ago.

I asked you a simple question Conor, you wanted to 'discuss' it in private , I explained to you several times I wanted the discussion to be public, but for some inexplicable reason you dont want that.
One can only draw a conclusion that you dont want it to be public because it would be very embarrassing.

But to keep this thread relevant, how about answering some of the questions pertinent to it , like.

On 27/07/2023 at 13:00, Rewulf said:

'BASC also claims the advice has been issued in response to an avian influenza risk that is unproven.'

How is it 'unproven' ?

 

On 27/07/2023 at 13:00, Rewulf said:

Defra knew about the potential licence changes in January this year, but its failure to publicise the changes until May meant it permitted hundreds of thousands of gamebirds to be reared knowing that they would never be released.'

Why can they not be released ?
The ruling only extends to 500M from a protected area, why can they not , in most cases , be released past this exclusion zone ?

You have disengaged from this conversation, or just ignored the questions. Convenient.
One can only think that the answers dont fit with BASC ideology , or are just again, plain embarrassing.

[Gas seal]

Hi I’m not member of  an effected shoot I have no interest in driven game shooting.I know that game birds are livestock when they are kept in pens. It states this on GL42. If hundreds of thousands game birds aren’t released into the countryside it will have a major impact on the wildlife predators and scavengers that feed on them . No roadkill as happened overnight when rabbits disappeared. I noticed less magpies in the fields and more corvids around farmyards, and more in town. Predators and scavengers will only breed when a food supply is available. Or move to another food supply. One in four game birds are lost each season .hundreds of thousands not released is a lot of food for other wildlife one way or another. It’s not just the shooting effected it’s also the environment. 

[Gordon R]

I don't always agree with Rewulf, but I have never thought of him as anti-shooting or a troll.

I see no evidence to support that allegation.