welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 1 hour ago, ditchman said: the responsibility of this killing rests squarely with the force commanding officer the perpertrator./accused hitting on the armed police i believe is unfair...........they are only a weapon that is the way i see it.............very difficult choice The responsibiity of this killing rests squarely with the person that pulled the trigger, it is that person's decision to fire and they know they must justify their actions should they discharge the firearm and kill another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 1 minute ago, welsh1 said: The responsibiity of this killing rests squarely with the person that pulled the trigger, it is that person's decision to fire and they know they must justify their actions should they discharge the firearm and kill another. no ...disagree with that statement................the firearms unit are a weapon...thats all...they are not trained to be Judge Dredd..... the decision of life or death rests with the commanding officer the presumed perpertrator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 1 minute ago, welsh1 said: The responsibiity of this killing rests squarely with the person that pulled the trigger, it is that person's decision to fire and they know they must justify their actions should they discharge the firearm and kill another. Do we know that for sure, as in some instances although individual officers would also need to justify their actions, the largest part of the responsibility could be the commander if certain information is received and they issue certain orders. Take a look at the 'operation cratos' order that was given to the de menezes officers on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, ditchman said: no ...disagree with that statement................the firearms unit are a weapon...thats all...they are not trained to be Judge Dredd..... the decision of life or death rests with the commanding officer the presumed perpertrator 6 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Do we know that for sure, as in some instances although individual officers would also need to justify their actions, the largest part of the responsibility could be the commander if certain information is received and they issue certain orders. Take a look at the 'operation cratos' order that was given to the de menezes officers on the ground. Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger, he must justify his or her actions, you can refuse an order if you believe it is wrong. It's very simple. Do you see any of the commanders charged in this recent shooting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkedUp Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 41 minutes ago, Westley said: Anyway, someone wearing shorts and Crocs and in possession of a firearm, deserves locking up 🙄 Cannot disagree 🤣🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centrepin Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 38 minutes ago, ditchman said: no ...disagree with that statement................the firearms unit are a weapon...thats all...they are not trained to be Judge Dredd..... Really? I would say at least 99%+ think they are but that would be another thread completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 52 minutes ago, welsh1 said: Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger, he must justify his or her actions, you can refuse an order if you believe it is wrong. It's very simple. Do you see any of the commanders charged in this recent shooting? It was the FIRST thing that was drilled into me on my Firearms course..........NOBODY can order or make you pull that trigger, that decision rests entirely with you, but you must be able to justify your actions afterwards. That was back in 1980's when we had to make back into the Station to obtain a gun, prior to making to the incident. Only Special Branch and Protection Officers routinely carried firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rim Fire Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 (edited) so can someone tell me why did the officer pull the trigger 1) was it because he thought he had a weapon if so he got that completely wrong 2) Did command tell him the driver had a weapon if so they got it completely wrong 3) was it because he would not exit the vehicle which is no excuse to shoot through the window where is the bodycam footage ? Edited September 26, 2023 by Rim Fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 22 minutes ago, Rim Fire said: so can someone tell me why did the officer pull the trigger 1) was it because he thought he had a weapon if so he got that completely wrong If he had a genuine and honest belief his life or others were in imminent danger at the time he pulled the trigger then that is his defense, it will be weakend somewhat if there was no weapon. 2) Did command tell him the driver had a weapon if so they got it completely wrong Intel is just advise, you have to make the decision on the ground 3) was it because he would not exit the vehicle which is no excuse to shoot through the window where is the bodycam footage ?If that's his defense then he is up the creek without a paddle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 1 hour ago, welsh1 said: Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger, he must justify his or her actions, you can refuse an order if you believe it is wrong. It's very simple. Do you see any of the commanders charged in this recent shooting? That's not correct, going back to the de mendezes case, the commanders had to justify giving a operation cratos order, which to the best of my knowledge and in layman terms is an, I don't have time to give you the full picture why, but assassinate on contact using shots to the head order unless you find a very good reason not to. I definitely wouldn't want to be the person receiving that order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: That's not correct, going back to the de mendezes case, the commanders had to justify giving a operation cratos order, which to the best of my knowledge and in layman terms is an, I don't have time to give you the full picture why, but assassinate on contact using shots to the head order unless you find a very good reason not to. I definitely wouldn't want to be the person receiving that order. The commanders were not tried there was an inquiry to which they gave evidence. As i have said it is the person that pulls the trigger that holds the responsibility, as they have to justify their actions. In the case you mention their justification was that they genuinly believed that there was an imminent danger to themselves and others and so they shot him through the head as per their training for suicide bombers. They at anytime could have withdrawn if they belived he was no threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 1 minute ago, welsh1 said: The commanders were not tried there was an inquiry to which they gave evidence. As i have said it is the person that pulls the trigger that holds the responsibility, as they have to justify their actions. In the case you mention their justification was that they genuinly believed that there was an imminent danger to themselves and others and so they shot him through the head as per their training for suicide bombers. They at anytime could have withdrawn if they belived he was no threat. Your right that anyone including the police that use force are responsible for their actions, but it is also true that others involved in the decision making process could also have to do the same, not solely the person pulling the trigger and the scenario is possible that the person pulling the trigger has done nothing wrong, but the person giving an order has, although I'm not suggesting that's what has happened in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Your right that anyone including the police that use force are responsible for their actions, but it is also true that others involved in the decision making process could also have to do the same, not solely the person pulling the trigger and the scenario is possible that the person pulling the trigger has done nothing wrong, but the person giving an order has, although I'm not suggesting that's what has happened in this case. Nope pulling the trigger is one persons responsibility, he may use the fact that on the information given to him he believed there was a threat, but he must justify why he pulled the trigger, and that is when his life or the life of others is in imminent danger. "person pulling the trigger has done nothing wrong" He commited to pulling that trigger, the moment he did he is the loneliest man on the planet, it is he/she who will have to justify why and as in this case may find themselves in the courts,all the intel and all the orders are only to form a picture, the armed officer has to make the crucial final decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 9 minutes ago, welsh1 said: Nope pulling the trigger is one persons responsibility I'm no expert, but in limited circumstances I still don't believe that's correct. How can the person pulling the trigger be soley accountable for carrying out what is nearly an execution order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 be interesting to see how this pans out in court.........it certainly needs sorting ..forever i still stand by my statement.......but to a certain extent i can see others point of view........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 10 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I'm no expert, but in limited circumstances I still don't believe that's correct. How can the person pulling the trigger be soley accountable for carrying out what is nearly an execution order? Because he pulled the trigger, just following orders is not a defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottletopbill Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 We need to see bodycam footage before we judge as we all think twice before we pull a trigger. But if information as stated a firearm as been linked to the car or other intelligence . Then shoot or be shot we was not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 6 minutes ago, welsh1 said: Because he pulled the trigger, just following orders is not a defense. I've just pulled this cut and paste from college of policing website, there is obviously alot more with regard critical shot, but it shows that sometimes it is actually the commander who has by far the largest part of justifying a shooting. The authorisation of a critical or a conventional shot is one of the most extreme decisions a commander can take. The circumstances in which a commander will authorise either a critical or a conventional shot are likely to be rare. The commander who authorises either a critical shot or a conventional shot will be later required to justify the authorisation, while the AFO will be required to explain their individual response and any action taken. Post-incident responsibility and accountability rests with the commander for giving the authorisation and the AFO for their response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 54 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I've just pulled this cut and paste from college of policing website, there is obviously alot more with regard critical shot, but it shows that sometimes it is actually the commander who has by far the largest part of justifying a shooting. The authorisation of a critical or a conventional shot is one of the most extreme decisions a commander can take. The circumstances in which a commander will authorise either a critical or a conventional shot are likely to be rare. The commander who authorises either a critical shot or a conventional shot will be later required to justify the authorisation, while the AFO will be required to explain their individual response and any action taken. Post-incident responsibility and accountability rests with the commander for giving the authorisation and the AFO for their response. It is always the one who pulls the trigger call, you can always refuse an order if you believe it to be wrong. While the commander may authorise it and have to show why later, the person who pulls the trigger has to account for their actions in pulling the trigger, and they are the ones liable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 17 minutes ago, welsh1 said: It is always the one who pulls the trigger call, you can always refuse an order if you believe it to be wrong. While the commander may authorise it and have to show why later, the person who pulls the trigger has to account for their actions in pulling the trigger, and they are the ones liable. You said in the beginning "Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger, he must justify his or her actions, you can refuse an order if you believe it is wrong." I said that was incorrect and I stand by that, sometimes it can be other people to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: You said in the beginning "Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger, he must justify his or her actions, you can refuse an order if you believe it is wrong." I said that was incorrect and I stand by that, sometimes it can be other people to. Then we will have to disagree,because under your scenario just about every police shooting should have seen a commander charged, but as we all know not one has, and yet we have seen many Soldiers and police officers charged over the years who made the decision to pull the trigger, most have been found to have had a justifiable reason to shoot another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 16 minutes ago, welsh1 said: ,because under your scenario just about every police shooting should have seen a commander charged, Not at all, it is limited to very specific circumstances, but like I said in the beginning when I replied to what you said "Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger" This is not always correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 29 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: Not at all, it is limited to very specific circumstances, but like I said in the beginning when I replied to what you said "Only one person will be tried in a court of law, that is the person that pulled the trigger" This is not always correct Then show me one commander who was charged and tried for shooting another person when they did not pull the trigger, you cannot, because you cannot charge a person with killing another when they did not. You can bring other charges but not the one of murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 Just now, welsh1 said: Then show me one commander who was charged and tried for shooting another person when they did not pull the trigger, you cannot, because you cannot charge a person with killing another when they did not. You can bring other charges but not the one of murder. I would suggest it's because there is only one instance a critical shot (formally known as operation kratos) has been ordered, none the less, it is still possible for someone other than the shooter to be held accountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted September 26, 2023 Report Share Posted September 26, 2023 2 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said: I would suggest it's because there is only one instance a critical shot (formally known as operation kratos) has been ordered, none the less, it is still possible for someone other than the shooter to be held accountable. You cannot charge someone with murder if they did not murder anyone. only the person pulling the trigger can be charged with murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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