old man Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 34 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: To put it in perspective, I heard we were spending around 2.5 £B on Ukraine. The whole defence budget is around 52 £B We spend £182 £B on the NHS (inc social care) (https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget) The NHS is VERY VERY expensive. And not sustainable in it's present guise? For instance, being an old lump of turf I tend to be around other old lumps of turf. One of the current waves is hearing aids for all? Currently I am aware of 3 pairs dispensed and not used, 1 has mislaid his for 2 months, his wife can't be bothered as her hair gets in the way and their neighbour hasn't seen his for 6 months and reportedly doesn't give a fig. None interested in giving them back? Hey ho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 She took 150k in 'donations' to pay for her staff and then claimed 220k on top, that is alot of staff to do what exactly. She isn't in power so doesn't dictate policy yet. Also surely the Civil Service will work for her when she gets in. Donations are bribes and should be banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 2 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said: She took 150k in 'donations' to pay for her staff and then claimed 220k on top, that is alot of staff to do what exactly. She isn't in power so doesn't dictate policy yet. Also surely the Civil Service will work for her when she gets in. Donations are bribes and should be banned. Possibly fill in more claim forms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: Not disputing that, but by your reasoning , they are using emotional blackmail to achieve their aims ? Really ? The first responsibility of government is the good health ,prosperity and safety of its OWN subjects, and the people who employ them. Thats just the latest tranche of (wasted) money, we have thrown nearly £10 billion at Ukraine. Thats a lot of wage increases. Bloated, inefficient , badly managed..... Not really, going on strike is the final option for any profession, they are simply employing the same that any other employee could implement by going on strike / walking out. They’ve held off going on strike many many times in the past due to concerns for patients / service users whilst other industries have walked out. 1 hour ago, Newbie to this said: Also seems we can police the Red sea and Suez, but can't police the channel. Back to the NHS, I wonder what are we going to do with all those unemployable big wigs once it goes private. Masses of unemployment, still their welfare cheques will probably be far less than their wages, so there's that....... You‘re absolutely dreaming if you think you could run a modern day health service without middle management. All the shouts of “return to the good old days” were when health care involved a “nurse” (which today would be a health care assistant) washing, emptying your bedpan and feeding watering you and waiting to see if you died or not. Modern medicine is significantly more advanced on every level and as such requires significantly more effort in all areas. My sister has started a job this week in the private sector; the management seem much alike expect they finish early most days, go to the pub for lunch and no one’s in a rush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 9 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: You‘re absolutely dreaming if you think you could run a modern day health service without middle management Possibly not, but the current lot will be out on their ear if it went private. The astronomical waste at present would not be tolerated once private, ultimately it these that are responsible. 11 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: All the shouts of “return to the good old days” were when health care involved a “nurse” (which today would be a health care assistant) washing, emptying your bedpan and feeding watering you and waiting to see if you died or not. Not sure where I said that.... 11 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Modern medicine is significantly more advanced on every level and as such requires significantly more effort in all areas. Agrred, something that seems lacking in the NHS, maybe not by those at the front of it all but...... 13 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: My sister has started a job this week in the private sector; the management seem much alike expect they finish early most days, go to the pub for lunch and no one’s in a rush. You forgot the bit where they are held accountable for their failings, and possibly pay with their job for them. Instead we just get told the NHS needs more money after every failure and failure and failure. Again at least if it does go private, there will be massive changes to the astronomical waste. Starting with the staff. £115,000 per year to be a “Director of Lived Experience” £44,053 a year "climate change manager with a salary of almost double the average nurse" £30,000 a year part-time ‘arts in hospital co-ordinator’ £87,500 a year ‘EU office director’ £35,500 a year ‘energy and carbon manager’ Just a few Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 minute ago, Newbie to this said: but the current lot will be out on their ear if it went private. Any Gov't who tried to privatise the NHS is doomed. The NHS has become 'sacred' and untouchable - which is in itself a big part of the problem. The NHS needs to refocus on treating patient's afflictions - and forget about distractions like 'lived experience', climate change, arts, the EU, diversity, gender confusion etc., and focus looking after, healing and curing ill people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said: Any Gov't who tried to privatise the NHS is doomed. The NHS has become 'sacred' and untouchable - which is in itself a big part of the problem. The NHS needs to refocus on treating patient's afflictions - and forget about distractions like 'lived experience', climate change, arts, the EU, diversity, gender confusion etc., and focus looking after, healing and curing ill people. along with charging those not from the UK to use it's services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 20 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: Possibly not, but the current lot will be out on their ear if it went private. The astronomical waste at present would not be tolerated once private, ultimately it these that are responsible. Not sure where I said that.... Agrred, something that seems lacking in the NHS, maybe not by those at the front of it all but...... You forgot the bit where they are held accountable for their failings, and possibly pay with their job for them. Instead we just get told the NHS needs more money after every failure and failure and failure. Again at least if it does go private, there will be massive changes to the astronomical waste. Starting with the staff. £115,000 per year to be a “Director of Lived Experience” £44,053 a year "climate change manager with a salary of almost double the average nurse" £30,000 a year part-time ‘arts in hospital co-ordinator’ £87,500 a year ‘EU office director’ £35,500 a year ‘energy and carbon manager’ Just a few Like the privately run water companies that we just bailed out for how much whilst they pump our rivers and seas with raw sewage? Whilst paying themselves multiple millions in bonuses. Like the privately run utility companies who are “forced” to put up prices cos they can’t manage whilst paying record profits and bonuses to themselves? Like the privately run railways which are some of the most expensive whilst providing awful service? Personally I’d be significantly better off financially if it was privatised but I’m not mad enough to think it’s a great idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Like the privately run water companies that we just bailed out for how much whilst they pump our rivers and seas with raw sewage? Whilst paying themselves multiple millions in bonuses. Like the privately run utility companies who are “forced” to put up prices cos they can’t manage whilst paying record profits and bonuses to themselves? Like the privately run railways which are some of the most expensive whilst providing awful service? That makes it Okay then 🤷♂️ But good point all those were previously publicly owned, so maybe the NHS will keep the same managers and the waste will continue. Seems once in the wasteful rut of public owned management, it hard to shake it. Especially when the good old tax payer will bail you out........... 42 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Personally I’d be significantly better off financially if it was privatised but I’m not mad enough to think it’s a great idea. Personally I don't know if I'd be better off or not, depends what happens with NI. I personally don't want it to be privatised either, was just thinking, what would we do with all those working for the NHS that shouldn't be, that you'd like to think privatisation would get rid of. But looking at your other examples of ex-public companies, still run on the old 'tax payer's money is no object' mantra, even though now privately owned, I'm thinking they will still be employed and still wasting money, and the tax payer called apon to bail them out. Edited January 13 by Newbie to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Any Gov't who tried to privatise the NHS is doomed. The NHS has become 'sacred' and untouchable - which is in itself a big part of the problem. The NHS needs to refocus on treating patient's afflictions - and forget about distractions like 'lived experience', climate change, arts, the EU, diversity, gender confusion etc., and focus looking after, healing and curing ill people. Yep sickening the total **** they waste taxpayers money on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Any Gov't who tried to privatise the NHS is doomed. The NHS has become 'sacred' and untouchable - which is in itself a big part of the problem. The NHS needs to refocus on treating patient's afflictions - and forget about distractions like 'lived experience', climate change, arts, the EU, diversity, gender confusion etc., and focus looking after, healing and curing ill people. Or decide what services it can properly provide within budget, and agree what it can step away from. The Govt should in turn campaign for health reducing associated tax, and campaign against poor health and increase associated tax. 10 hours ago, Rewulf said: Fire crews Ambulance crews Doctors They don't work , people die, it's a fact. We can afford to send billions to Ukraine, 3rd world countries ? But e can't afford the NHS? We don't send billions to Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 9 minutes ago, oowee said: The Govt should in turn campaign for health reducing associated tax, and campaign against poor health and increase associated tax. We already have several; alcohol, sugar products (drinks only?), tobacco products, arguably motoring. What do you add? I can think of the other nicotine related, but they are (in theory anyway) linked to reduction of tobacco, so are apparently to be encouraged; indeed it has even been suggested some are prescribed by the NHS! (including those vile vape things). Fat related products are hard to scope because there are many benefits from (for example) dairy products (which are mostly high fat). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 22 minutes ago, oowee said: decide what services it can properly provide within budget, and agree what it can step away from. The Govt should in turn campaign for health reducing associated tax, and campaign against poor health and increase associated tax. As John says already happening, and many more plans in the pipeline. 22 minutes ago, oowee said: We don't send billions to Ukraine. 8 billion so far , and a huge amount of equipment and training provided free. Plus free intelligence from agents , satellite, and AWACs, all costing the taxpayer money , and has achieved nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weihrauch17 Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 Just now, Rewulf said: As John says already happening, and many more plans in the pipeline. 8 billion so far , and a huge amount of equipment and training provided free. Plus free intelligence from agents , satellite, and AWACs, all costing the taxpayer money , and has achieved nothing. And we can't float an Aircraft Carrier due to a lack of staff, quite unbelievable and a total and utter embarrassment for the Government and Defence Ministers past and present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 21 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: We already have several; alcohol, sugar products (drinks only?), tobacco products, arguably motoring. What do you add? I can think of the other nicotine related, but they are (in theory anyway) linked to reduction of tobacco, so are apparently to be encouraged; indeed it has even been suggested some are prescribed by the NHS! (including those vile vape things). Fat related products are hard to scope because there are many benefits from (for example) dairy products (which are mostly high fat). Higher tax on ultra processed foods, high sugar, high salt, vapes. Tax relief on private health. Tax reduction on veg. Advert restrictions and health warnings on fast food. ................. Govt program of health promotion, and a concerted campaign against processed foods, bring back the tobacco age ban its endless. 17 minutes ago, Rewulf said: As John says already happening, and many more plans in the pipeline. 8 billion so far , and a huge amount of equipment and training provided free. Plus free intelligence from agents , satellite, and AWACs, all costing the taxpayer money , and has achieved nothing. Where was the cash spent, how is it measured. It's not all money going to Ukraine more benefit and value. The payback to UK is tax weapons sales, jobs. Results, degrade Russian forces, stop Russian advance and who knows where next. There is no benefit in appeasement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 36 minutes ago, oowee said: degrade Russian forces, stop Russian advance and who knows where next You know the daftest thing about it ? NATO countries have poured 200 billion into Ukraine, and that's a Conservative estimate. If we say there's 200,000 dead Russians, that's a million a man , it would have been cheaper to pay each one 100,000 a piece to surrender themselves and equipment, likely more money than they've ever seen. But then the arms manufacturers wouldn't have made as much would they ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 Just now, Rewulf said: You know the daftest thing about it ? NATO countries have poured 200 billion into Ukraine, and that's a Conservative estimate. If we say there's 200,000 dead Russians, that's a million a man , it would have been cheaper to pay each one 100,000 a piece to surrender themselves and equipment, likely more money than they've ever seen. But then the arms manufacturers wouldn't have made as much would they ? No they would not have made as much money. We would also not have taken so much tax, created so many jobs, had the opportunity to field test so much equipment, dispose of old stocks. Helped save lives in Europe at the cost of only £ not blood. Where will the US be in saving Taiwan? What next for a European super army? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, oowee said: No they would not have made as much money. We would also not have taken so much tax, created so many jobs, had the opportunity to field test so much equipment, dispose of old stocks. Helped save lives in Europe at the cost of only £ not blood Seriously? Half a million people dead, but at least we made some money. Bit like covid really, but that's another story. Anyways , we're going way off topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 On LBC around 8am this morning. A chief exec of the NHS saying the resources are extremely limited, and they need to start prioritising who gets care on waiting lists. He said younger people with cancer should be skipped ahead of the older people on waiting lists. The 18 year old with cancer should be jumped ahead of the 80 year olds, instead of them all waiting in the same line. Add in the push for legalising assisted suicide you can see the way it’s going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 11 hours ago, oowee said: Higher tax on ultra processed foods, high sugar, high salt, vapes. Tax relief on private health. Tax reduction on veg. This is immediately likely to be trumpetted as a 'tax on the lower incomed'. Political suicide rather like Osboirnes 'pasty tax'. "Ultra processed foods" are difficult to define (in any legally watertight form) and also tend to be the cheaper 'staples' on which many on low incomes depend - and high sugar and salt also includes many of the foods bought by those on lower incomes. Some 'snacks most confectioneries, soft and hard drinks and takeaways' are already taxed (VAT). Meanwhile you are suggesting tax relief for private health (basically only affordable by the wealthy, or more likely included in the 'packages' offered to the better off as part of their remuneration). I don't believe veggies are taxed anyway, though some imported veggies and out of season are very 'carbon intensive' - and so pay tax on indirectly via fuels used in heating/transport. The rest 11 hours ago, oowee said: Govt program of health promotion, and a concerted campaign against processed foods, bring back the tobacco age ban I can agree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 16 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Add in the push for legalising assisted suicide Something I do for my dogs - and have no problem being applied to me under appropriate legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said: Something I do for my dogs - and have no problem being applied to me under appropriate legislation. The future of the NHS, you will be classed as too old and the “more productive” will be constantly skipped ahead of you in the queue. You’ll either die untreated on a waiting list or quality of life decline so much you’d opt for the lethal injection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 I try (and think I succeed the vast majority of the time) in providing the best treatment for my dog(s) - and have used euthanasia in every case when the time was right. I would like that choice for myself as well. 3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: The future of the NHS, you will be classed as too old and the “more productive” will be constantly skipped ahead of you in the queue. Happens already. Nothing new in that. 3 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: You’ll either die untreated on a waiting list or quality of life decline so much you’d opt for the lethal injection. Entirely possible. It's called the "Welfare State". No one can live for ever and having no waiting lists is entirely beyond the abilities of the NHS under any conceivable circumstance. Equally, as a 'sacred cow', the NHS is untouchable. Handing out huge pay rises to the politically active and those prepared to bring misery on others is the wrong answer in every case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 I am personally concerned about where we are being manipulated to, not liking the current version of democracy at all seemingly driven as it is by those of a despotic nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted January 14 Report Share Posted January 14 22 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: Not really, going on strike is the final option for any profession, they are simply employing the same that any other employee could implement by going on strike / walking out. As highlighted earlier, prison officers and police don't. Why are the critically ill less important than prisoners or law and order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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