Junior Doctors Now About To Start A Six Day Strike ?

[udderlyoffroad]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

The NHS, immigration, taxation, co2, housing, transport, trade, all need to be addressed. None of the solutions are popular. The electoral system does not allow for structural change.

And you'd suggest...what?  Please don't say PR.

Plenty of other nations have PR, still face the same challenges, and are locked in a eternal coalitions at various governmental levels.  There isn't much sense of taking long term difficult decisions that would otherwise be impossible thanks to FPTP.

If we're honest, you can't get a fag paper between Keif Starmer's Labour and Sunak's torees.  Other than a few of their respective fringe MP's they both promise more of the same.  Possibly more nanny-state-ery under Keif, but the torees aren't exactly lacking in that department either.

 

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I want them to make a great life but at the same time hope they might stay. The salary offers and working conditions make the UK look like the dark ages.

Genuinely hope they make the right decision for them.  Was talking to a younger pal of mine (thirties) who moved to BC a couple of years ago last night.  Really worked out well for him, his (not medical) skills are in demand there.  He's not sure the money is much better in terms of pay - minus taxes/cost of living, but certainly the headline amounts are much better.

 

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

In other walks of life in private companies you may get reprimanded, but staff criticising a public company aren’t in that position. 
 

Staff making false and slanderous claims will undoubtedly be talked to by their hospital / trust HR department or media team

🤣  Pull the other one Lloyd, if people went on TV criticising their employer in the private sector the way they do in the NHS, they'd be out the door.

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

My point is, the idea that the majority of NHS staff are intentionally doing a bad job to undermine the Government is far from the truth. 

I never said majority, but I could point a few fingers if it would make you feel better.  You're not seriously telling me that woman was pulling her considerable weight in terms of patient care under evel toree rule.

 

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

n 12-18 months time; those same staff will be working under a different Government, most likely labour. They will continue working just as hard as they are now. Many of the issues will continue and be the exact same.

Exactly my assertion, those people will magically start doing their jobs, even though nothing's changed, there will be a measurable improvement in outcomes.  I'm assuming you're too young to remember '97?

Or even...you know COVID...dancing nurses on TikTok whilst cancer wards stopped treating people?

[oowee]

43 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

On immigration 

The vast majority of the UK wants to seriously limit it and know that doing so would vastly improve their lives, both financially and the availability of all public services. It is the elites and the woke who either have a vested interest or are more concerned with virtue signaling to care about their fellow man.

We may want to limit uncontrolled immigration but we do not have enough workers to sustain the lifestyle that we want. Despite the current level of taxation being the highest ever, there is not enough tax to go around. We are simply living beyond our means.

We have used oil, and the sale of assets to subsidise a life style that we have not earn't. 

[Lloyd90]

34 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

🤣  Pull the other one Lloyd, if people went on TV criticising their employer in the private sector the way they do in the NHS, they'd be out the door.

I never said majority, but I could point a few fingers if it would make you feel better.  You're not seriously telling me that woman was pulling her considerable weight in terms of patient care under evel toree rule.

 

Exactly my assertion, those people will magically start doing their jobs, even though nothing's changed, there will be a measurable improvement in outcomes.  I'm assuming you're too young to remember '97?

Or even...you know COVID...dancing nurses on TikTok whilst cancer wards stopped treating people?

Magically start doing there jobs?!
 

Ah right, there’s no staff shortages in the NHS. There’s plenty of doctors and nurses and staff, they’re not having to sit people in corridors for days on end due to lack of people to see and treat them. 
 

They’re all just on a jolly. 
 

When someone turns up after a major car crash with life threatening injuries, or someone turns up in the middle of a stroke or heart attack, clearly the current staff are saying to one another “don’t get to them too quickly, have another cuppa before we start CPR… we wouldn’t make the Tories to look good, would we?” 
 

When Labour are in power, nurses and doctors won’t take 5 minutes out of their 12+ hour shifts to record a silly video to boost a bit of morale in a grim job that deals with misery 24/7… they’re be busy treating people at double speed, saying “Labours in now, time to actually work and stop taking it easy!”. 
 

They’ll no longer be waiting lists despite there being no additional resources, the shear idea that Labour are in power will have nurses and doctors floating down corridors powered solely by their sense of being valued, healing and discharging people double quick. 

[udderlyoffroad]

Ok now you're just going on a whataboutery rant.

The 'what about when it's life threatening injuries' argument is so bunk it's unreal.  What about when it's not?

 

12 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

They’ll no longer be waiting lists despite there being no additional resources, the shear idea that Labour are in power will have nurses and doctors floating down corridors powered solely by their sense of being valued, healing and discharging people double quick. 

Once again you've totally missed my point.

There will be a noticeable improvement despite nothing changing.  That is my prediction, and I'm not alone in this. 

 

13 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

When Labour are in power, nurses and doctors won’t take 5 minutes out of their 12+ hour shifts to record a silly video to boost a bit of morale in a grim job that deals with misery 24/7

My complaint about the TikToking nurses was that this *wasnt* people taking five minutes from their busy shifts.

They shut the wards.  There are plenty of NHS workers who reported having nothing to do during COVID.  Are you getting it yet?  They shut. Cancer. Wards.

It's an absolute disgrace, and no other civilised country did this

Good night. 

[clangerman]

 now we had all the cobblers to support rat boy saving a few quid let’s have the real story so yesterday the nhs found within mere hrs my brother has leukaemia and by 12 o’clock today he was already having a bone marrow biopsy now tell me service that good is not exactly what you want your taxes spent on especially as some of YOU are going to end up in his boat! 

[Lloyd90]

21 minutes ago, clangerman said:

 now we had all the cobblers to support rat boy saving a few quid let’s have the real story so yesterday the nhs found within mere hrs my brother has leukaemia and by 12 o’clock today he was already having a bone marrow biopsy now tell me service that good is not exactly what you want your taxes spent on especially as some of YOU are going to end up in his boat! 

If the staff had been working at full speed he could have had it by 9am and been home in time for lunch (apparently anyways). 
 

On a serious note, I hope your brother is ok and gets better soon. 
 

Best wishes  

[Lloyd90]

31 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Once again you've totally missed my point.

There will be a noticeable improvement despite nothing changing.  That is my prediction, and I'm not alone in this. 

That’s not the entirely of what you said.
 

You said suggestively and quite blatantly that staff are intentionally doing a bad job or doing minimal work in some sort of crazy conspiracy to undermine and bring down the Government.

 

I also predict that there will be an improvement when Labour gets in. However I don’t think that improvement will be because all the staff have been sat around avoiding work. 
 

Most likely it will come from manipulating figures and statistics and the media being less critical of the stats coming out. 

 

 

36 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

My complaint about the TikToking nurses was that this *wasnt* people taking five minutes from their busy shifts.

They shut the wards.  There are plenty of NHS workers who reported having nothing to do during COVID.  Are you getting it yet?  They shut. Cancer. Wards.

It's an absolute disgrace, and no other civilised country did this

Good night. 

Who’s they?
They who shut cancer wards? 
 

It certainly wasn’t the individual doctors, nurses, staff on the ground etc who decided which services stayed open and which were closed. 
 

It was the Government (and most likely senior NHS officials working with the Government) that decided about lockdowns and what was classed as essential. 
 

Matt Hancock as Health Secretary and Boris Johnson were in charge and making decisions on that level. 

It is a joke and disgrace that such services were deemed non essential, and such a big reduction in screening took place. 

Despite that. Individual NHS on the frontline were absolutely not involved in making those decisions and blaming them for those failings is ludicrous. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

We may want to limit uncontrolled immigration but we do not have enough workers to sustain the lifestyle that we want. Despite the current level of taxation being the highest ever, there is not enough tax to go around. We are simply living beyond our means.

We have used oil, and the sale of assets to subsidise a life style that we have not earn't. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[12gauge82]

20 hours ago, oowee said:

We may want to limit uncontrolled immigration but we do not have enough workers to sustain the lifestyle that we want. Despite the current level of taxation being the highest ever, there is not enough tax to go around. We are simply living beyond our means.

We have used oil, and the sale of assets to subsidise a life style that we have not earn't. 

Nonsense, we simply have companies accustomed to employing cheap foreign labour rather than training our own. The young aren't having children due to the cost of living being too high for them, predominantly due to housing costs which are being artificially inflated in part due to mass migration and a housing shortage immigration inflames.

Creating a pyrimid ponzi scheme by importing ever more immigrants is simply saving up problems for our children and grandchildren and on the other end, you have climate change, mainly driven by too many people on the planet, by allowing free movement from poor countries to rich ones is fanning the flames.

[clangerman]

20 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

On a serious note, I hope your brother is ok and gets better soon. 
 

Best wishes  

thanks he’s just been complaining about the coming chemo being a sensitive soul I pointed out he’s almost bald anyway! 

[Lloyd90]

33 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Nonsense, we simply have companies accustomed to employing cheap foreign labour rather than training our own. The young aren't having children due to the cost of living being too high for them, predominantly due to housing costs which are being artificially inflated in part due to mass migration and a housing shortage immigration inflames.

Creating a pyrimid ponzi scheme by importing ever more immigrants is simply saving up problems for our children and grandchildren and on the other end, you have climate change, mainly driven by too many people on the planet, by allowing free movement from poor countries to rich ones is fanning the flames.

I agree we have seen wages forced down / held down by the ability to employ cheap foreign workers who will put up with living in poor quality / overcrowded properties because they can eventually save some cash and move back home where that money buys them a much higher quality of life. 
 

If they couldn’t get the staff for such low wages many businesses would either be deemed unviable or pay higher wages to staff and not make as much profit. 
 

Considering CEO wages are now 344 times more than the average worker (in 1965 they were only 21 times great than the average worker) I hazard a guess that the businesses would likely still be viable if they paid staff more, but the CEO’s and shareholders wouldn’t be happy about losing the huge bonuses and profits I reckon. 
 

I don’t agree that immigrants are driving the housing crisis, they may contribute to it but the biggest driver is population growth of our own citizens, people’s kids looking to move out into their own homes but not enough homes being build. 
 

Immigrants, second homes / buy to lets / Air B&B / holiday lets, land banking of empty properties are all issues that impact on our housing stock but you can’t singularly lay the blame on migrants. 

12 minutes ago, clangerman said:

thanks he’s just been complaining about the coming chemo being a sensitive soul I pointed out he’s almost bald anyway! 

Who needs eyebrows anyway? 😭

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I don’t agree that immigrants are driving the housing crisis, they may contribute to it but the biggest driver is population growth of our own citizens, people’s kids looking to move out into their own homes but not enough homes being build. 
 

Immigrants, second homes / buy to lets / Air B&B / holiday lets, land banking of empty properties are all issues that impact on our housing stock but you can’t singularly lay the blame on migrants. 

Who needs eyebrows anyway? 😭

Housing crisis is caused because market structure needs price increases to work. Biggest driver is new household formations and older peops living longer. 

[12gauge82]

I fully agree immigration is not the largest driver of house price increases but it's certainly not helping, it's simple supply and demand, more people equals less available houses, leading to higher prices.

[udderlyoffroad]

21 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

You said suggestively and quite blatantly that staff are intentionally doing a bad job or doing minimal work in some sort of crazy conspiracy to undermine and bring down the Government.

Nope.  What I actually said was

Quote

I suspect a good number of "our NHS heros" already do (work to rule), and will magically start doing their job as soon as the evel torees are deposed and Sir Keir is crowned El Presidente, even though nothing else will have changed.

This remember, was following on from @oowee's suggestion that staff *should* work to rule.  No crazy conspiracy, I'm not the only one to say it, and I said a 'good number', not 'many', 'lots' or 'all'.

Whilst we're on this subject; I said something both suggestively and quite blatantly?  Those are two mutually exclusive statements, it can't be both - which is it? 

Or, let's be honest, are you unhappy because I dared blaspheme the new national religion, the NHS and its heroes?

22 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

I also predict that there will be an improvement when Labour gets in. However I don’t think that improvement will be because all the staff have been sat around avoiding work. 

So...you agree with me that there'll be an improvement, 

Let's agree to differ, and say we *do* agree on the that there'll be an effect, but not on its cause.

22 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Most likely it will come from manipulating figures and statistics and the media being less critical of the stats coming out. 

I'd suggest that the media landscape isn't what it was, and we now have right-of-centre broadcasters (Talk TV, GBN) as well as left-of-centre (C4, BBC, Sky) so a '97 style 'things can only get better' media honeymoon isn't going to happen.

 

22 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

Who’s they?
They who shut cancer wards? 

The NHS.  The front line workers seemed quite happy with it.  Where were the protests, the defiantly carrying on, the sticking to fingers up to management?  Nope, what we got instead was TikToks on empty wards by bored nurses.

The culture is rotten to the core, with zero accountability.  They shut the wards, and the medical personnel went along with it, with few honourable exceptions. 

Once again, nobody else in the world did this, because they knew they would only create themselves problems down the line, and costs themselves more money.  But in the infinite money pit that is the NHS, no problem, we can just stop treating people, because there'll be no comeback.  Must be the evel torees to blame for the massive waiting lists.

I quite agree that those at the top want to be held accountable, Hancock in particular.  But let's not exempt NHS middle and senior management from this, and that definitely includes clinical staff!

57 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I fully agree immigration is not the largest driver of house price increases but it's certainly not helping, it's simple supply and demand, more people equals less available houses, leading to higher prices.

Anyone who doesn't think that the official net migration figure - a city the size of Leeds or Glasgow every year - isn't going to put a strain on housing or healthcare (of whichever system) is living in utter denial.

[armsid]

Changing the economy from high wage industrial to lower wage services economy with the same prices and workforce does not help.This situation has occured since the mid seventies after we joined the Common Market and found we could bring in European workers ready trained we closed our apprentice schools and tech colleges and eventually our factories as well as recruiting nurses and doctors and not home grown ones. Gordon Brown (the scourge of pension raids) went to Eastern Europe to tempt people to come and work here to drive down wages in the UK this is why it now takes 10 times wages to buy a house where i live and these people are commuting 75 miles each way to work as the local economy is low wage and rural

[Newbie to this]

9 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Nope.  What I actually said was

This remember, was following on from @oowee's suggestion that staff *should* work to rule.  No crazy conspiracy, I'm not the only one to say it, and I said a 'good number', not 'many', 'lots' or 'all'.

Whilst we're on this subject; I said something both suggestively and quite blatantly?  Those are two mutually exclusive statements, it can't be both - which is it? 

Or, let's be honest, are you unhappy because I dared blaspheme the new national religion, the NHS and its heroes?

So...you agree with me that there'll be an improvement, 

Let's agree to differ, and say we *do* agree on the that there'll be an effect, but not on its cause.

I'd suggest that the media landscape isn't what it was, and we now have right-of-centre broadcasters (Talk TV, GBN) as well as left-of-centre (C4, BBC, Sky) so a '97 style 'things can only get better' media honeymoon isn't going to happen.

 

The NHS.  The front line workers seemed quite happy with it.  Where were the protests, the defiantly carrying on, the sticking to fingers up to management?  Nope, what we got instead was TikToks on empty wards by bored nurses.

The culture is rotten to the core, with zero accountability.  They shut the wards, and the medical personnel went along with it, with few honourable exceptions. 

Once again, nobody else in the world did this, because they knew they would only create themselves problems down the line, and costs themselves more money.  But in the infinite money pit that is the NHS, no problem, we can just stop treating people, because there'll be no comeback.  Must be the evel torees to blame for the massive waiting lists.

I quite agree that those at the top want to be held accountable, Hancock in particular.  But let's not exempt NHS middle and senior management from this, and that definitely includes clinical staff!

 

10 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Anyone who doesn't think that the official net migration figure - a city the size of Leeds or Glasgow every year - isn't going to put a strain on housing or healthcare (of whichever system) is living in utter denial.

There are none so blind, as those who refuse to see.

[12gauge82]

15 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Anyone who doesn't think that the official net migration figure - a city the size of Leeds or Glasgow every year - isn't going to put a strain on housing or healthcare (of whichever system) is living in utter denial.

Absolutely spot on.

The fact people won't admit it is ridiculous and don't forget the strain on all public services.

15 hours ago, armsid said:

Changing the economy from high wage industrial to lower wage services economy with the same prices and workforce does not help.This situation has occured since the mid seventies after we joined the Common Market and found we could bring in European workers ready trained we closed our apprentice schools and tech colleges and eventually our factories as well as recruiting nurses and doctors and not home grown ones. Gordon Brown (the scourge of pension raids) went to Eastern Europe to tempt people to come and work here to drive down wages in the UK this is why it now takes 10 times wages to buy a house where i live and these people are commuting 75 miles each way to work as the local economy is low wage and rural

I was going to go into this but didn't bring it up as it's another subject.

Your exactly right of course and unfortunately to undo the damage done from being in the EU could take decades.

[oowee]

16 hours ago, armsid said:

Changing the economy from high wage industrial to lower wage services economy with the same prices and workforce does not help.

This is the wrong way around. The UK cannot support the low paid industrial economy without the higher service sector. 

Industry manufacturing jobs are head to head with India and China and require us to have low wages and long hours. The well paid jobs are in design, innovation and the knowledge driven economy. We have to be simply a small part of a global economy to be competitive. The only way manufacturing jobs will work is local production or special products or where manufacturing is highly mechanised. UK economic policy has not been in favour of mechanisation. 

Services is where the UK will and does lead. It can be very highly paid and in the case of the UK pays the vast majority of our bills. It relies upon a supporting service sector which by it's nature will be lower paid. 

Without service skills we would be in an even worse state than we are now. The NHS is a service industry that the Government try's to keep as low paid hence (in part) the mess its in. 

[Penelope]

On 17/01/2024 at 18:14, oowee said:

It's such a waste of talent that we need here. Its the same for my daughter (GP in the next month)  and her husband ( Research Doctor with NHS). I want them to make a great life but at the same time hope they might stay. The salary offers and working conditions make the UK look like the dark ages. 

 

Don't worry, loads of doctors, etc,coming over on the dinghies to replace them.