Bioammo composting 2yrs on.

[Conor O'Gorman]

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

What would be really helpful would be for the manufacturer to label how long the wad/ case takes to biodegrade in the environment they are used in 

That is for the manufacturers to label not BASC, as has already been pointed out by others, and as also pointed out by others the concern is more about wads rather than cases. Do you have any suggestions on the wad descriptions on the BASC list? After all you posted about the list.

[Old farrier]

I have plenty of suggestions 

first one as you pointed out I drew attention to the list you quoted that you’re organisation compiled as lead free sustainable non plastic wads ammunition 

1. label then with how long the wads take to decompose 

2. don’t label them as biodegradable if they need to go into a commercial composting facility to achieve the degradation process 

[London Best]

Maybe such cases degrade in the Sun, not when buried?

[rbrowning2]

22 hours ago, London Best said:

Exactly! 
So why are we making anything else?

Possibly because felt wads will not be good for your gun with steel shot.

 

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

What would be really helpful would be for the manufacturer to label how long the wad/ case takes to biodegrade in the environment they are used in 

Possibly because they will degrade at different rates depending, on where you live due to the weather and where they land.

The water soluble type disappears very quickly, however they have their own challenges with respect to wad storage life, loading and possibly cartridge storage, will we see a cartridge use by date in the future?

The card cup type will naturally degrade as made of cellulose so a good option, there are no microorganisms in nature that eat single use plastic, hence it is around for hundreds of years and the major problem it is in the environment.

The other biodegradable wads are made from plant based polymer, the polymer will meet EN 13432 how long it will take to degrade will depend on the thickness of the item made from the material (just because the material meets EN 13432 does not mean the product will) and as said where it ends up in the world, but expect it to take many years to degrade, but not the many hundreds single use plastic will.

The wad performs an important function, it must hold back the expanding high pressure very hot gas, otherwise the pattern will be blown and balling of shot (lead, bismuth) and be strong enough to protect the bore from damage from steel shot. Then stay viable in the cartridge until fired for what may be many years.

The race by each cartridge manufacturers to create their own “biodegradable” wads to give them unique selling points has resulted in the mess we have today, but no quick fix, so get used to it as it is the future if the future is a ban on lead.

Edited May 14 by rbrowning2

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

I have plenty of suggestions 

first one as you pointed out I drew attention to the list you quoted that you’re organisation compiled as lead free sustainable non plastic wads ammunition 

1. label then with how long the wads take to decompose 

2. don’t label them as biodegradable if they need to go into a commercial composting facility to achieve the degradation process 

Thanks I will pass that on. The list was produced in October 2023 and will be getting updated. As posted earlier the wad descriptions are various - ie. Pro Eco, Fibre, Bio-Wad, Quad Seal Fibre, Paper Wad, Earth Wad, Green Core, ACP/Anychoke technology and Hydrowad.

[rbrowning2]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks I will pass that on. The list was produced in October 2023 and will be getting updated. As posted earlier the wad descriptions are various - ie. Pro Eco, Fibre, Bio-Wad, Quad Seal Fibre, Paper Wad, Earth Wad, Green Core, ACP/Anychoke technology and Hydrowad.

Conor good luck getting a definitive answer to time to degrade.

This is a recent reply from one manufacturers of biodegradable wads in use, to save any litigation issues I have not named them or my source of the information.  

 

The literature from xxxxxxxxxx states as follows

" degrades at least 90% in 6 months when subjected to an environment rich in carbon dioxide"
"when in contact with organic materials for a period of 3 months, the mass of the material decomposes for 90% from fragments less than 2mm in size" "The material is EN13432 certified"

However, the time frames are not applicable to the UK climate. It will take longer to degrade . What shooters have to realise is that to retain the performance and ballistics of a plastic wad the bio wad needs to be rigid/stable enough to suffer the pressure and heat when a cartridge is fired. 

These wads will not degrade within weeks or a few months, they will degrade but there are many factors that determine the timeframe. Eg they will start to breakdown quicker in summer, they will breakdown quicker in the South West of the country compared to the north east / Scotland etc due to climate variation. 

Also, we need the wads to have a good shelf life, so shooters can store them for a number of months without fear of the wad breaking down in storage. There must be some compromise. Even a fibre wad doesn't degrade within days/ weeks. It can remain for a while.
 

[wymberley]

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

What would be really helpful would be for the manufacturer to label how long the wad/ case takes to biodegrade in the environment they are used in 

What chance is there of that when although there will be a shot size number given on the packaging what size that physically is is anyone's guess. 

[rbrowning2]

47 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks I will pass that on. The list was produced in October 2023 and will be getting updated. As posted earlier the wad descriptions are various - ie. Pro Eco, Fibre, Bio-Wad, Quad Seal Fibre, Paper Wad, Earth Wad, Green Core, ACP/Anychoke technology and Hydrowad.

That’s not a description, just a marketing name given to the various wads, technically tells the user nothing of any value to help make an informed choice. But we cannot be seen to litter the countryside with single use plastic when lead shot is banned so just pick one and go shoot.

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

Maybe such cases degrade in the Sun, not when buried?

Not so as I have buried some half buried others and left some on the top in full light and the elements 

[Old farrier]

2 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor good luck getting a definitive answer to time to degrade.

This is a recent reply from one manufacturers of biodegradable wads in use, to save any litigation issues I have not named them or my source of the information.  

 

The literature from xxxxxxxxxx states as follows

" degrades at least 90% in 6 months when subjected to an environment rich in carbon dioxide"
"when in contact with organic materials for a period of 3 months, the mass of the material decomposes for 90% from fragments less than 2mm in size" "The material is EN13432 certified"

However, the time frames are not applicable to the UK climate. It will take longer to degrade . What shooters have to realise is that to retain the performance and ballistics of a plastic wad the bio wad needs to be rigid/stable enough to suffer the pressure and heat when a cartridge is fired. 

These wads will not degrade within weeks or a few months, they will degrade but there are many factors that determine the timeframe. Eg they will start to breakdown quicker in summer, they will breakdown quicker in the South West of the country compared to the north east / Scotland etc due to climate variation. 

Also, we need the wads to have a good shelf life, so shooters can store them for a number of months without fear of the wad breaking down in storage. There must be some compromise. Even a fibre wad doesn't degrade within days/ weeks. It can remain for a while.
 

Many thanks 😊👍

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I think you'll find all of these cases require industrial size composting set ups to work.

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

That’s not a description, just a marketing name given to the various wads, technically tells the user nothing of any value to help make an informed choice. But we cannot be seen to litter the countryside with single use plastic when lead shot is banned so just pick one and go shoot.

I think that's a good point - aside from the fibre and paper descriptions. Although, it is interesting that nobody is questioning how long fibre wads take to decompose in the field nor what the various fibre wads are made of.  It is also interesting that nobody is asking for evidence about the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads, whilst questioning evidence of the negative impacts of lead shot. Food for thought perhaps.

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think that's a good point - aside from the fibre and paper descriptions. Although, it is interesting that nobody is questioning how long fibre wads take to decompose in the field nor what the various fibre wads are made of.  It is also interesting that nobody is asking for evidence about the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads, whilst questioning evidence of the negative impacts of lead shot. Food for thought perhaps.

Certainly it is food for thought

however the HSE isn’t looking into the issue of plastic wads at the moment nor do the plastic wads have any impact on the sales of game

most game shoots have been fibre wad only for a good number of years along with most game shooters

the plastic is the result of the transition to non lead shot as a fibre wad isn’t adequate to protect the barrel from damage with certain non lead pellets 

it’s been generally accepted that fibre wad’s are more eco friendly than plastic and more so if ingested by livestock 

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

13 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Certainly it is food for thought

however the HSE isn’t looking into the issue of plastic wads at the moment nor do the plastic wads have any impact on the sales of game

most game shoots have been fibre wad only for a good number of years along with most game shooters

the plastic is the result of the transition to non lead shot as a fibre wad isn’t adequate to protect the barrel from damage with certain non lead pellets 

it’s been generally accepted that fibre wad’s are more eco friendly than plastic and more so if ingested by livestock 

 

I am not aware of any evidence of livestock ingesting plastic wads. Can you provide any?

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I think that's a good point - aside from the fibre and paper descriptions. Although, it is interesting that nobody is questioning how long fibre wads take to decompose in the field nor what the various fibre wads are made of.  It is also interesting that nobody is asking for evidence about the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads, whilst questioning evidence of the negative impacts of lead shot. Food for thought perhaps.

The most commonly used fibre wad is made from cellulose material caped at each end with a thin plastic material. So with the exception of the capping will biodegrade and certainly they look to do so in a matter of weeks, otherwise my local clay ground would be knee deep in them. But must also depend on the climate and where they fall.

When you say nobody is asking about the negative impact of plastic shotgun wads that depends on who the nobody is as certainly an acknowledged problem on the Danish foreshore. 

As has been said HSE, WJ are looking at lead not plastic wads, but a transition to steel shot and single use plastic wads would see a massive change in the number of plastic wads used given how popular fibre wads are for live quarry shooting in the U.K. Are we then not likely just to see WJ move from lead to plastic pollution?

7th May.

https://wildjustice.org.uk/lead-ammunition/game-meat-with-high-lead-levels-still-being-sold/

 

Edited May 14 by rbrowning2

[Konor]

🤣

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

It is also interesting that nobody is asking for evidence about the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads, whilst questioning evidence of the negative impacts of lead shot. Food for thought perhaps.

Questions regarding the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads will soon follow after a legislative ban on lead is enacted. Did you seriously think the appeasement to Wild Justice etc of calling for a voluntary lead ban would halt the drive to see game shooting restricted or abolished? 🤣

[Conor O'Gorman]

22 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

The most commonly used fibre wad is made from cellulose material caped at each end with a thin plastic material. So with the exception of the capping will biodegrade and certainly they look to do so in a matter of weeks, otherwise my local clay ground would be knee deep in them. But must also depend on the climate and where they fall.

When you say nobody is asking about the negative impact of plastic shotgun wads that depends on who the nobody is as certainly an acknowledged problem on the Danish foreshore. 

As has been said HSE, WJ are looking at lead not plastic wads, but a transition to steel shot and single use plastic wads would see a massive change in the number of plastic wads used given how popular fibre wads are for live quarry shooting in the U.K. Are we then not likely just to see WJ move from lead to plastic pollution?

7th May.

https://wildjustice.org.uk/lead-ammunition/game-meat-with-high-lead-levels-still-being-sold/

 

Yet still it is interesting that nobody is questioning how long fibre wads take to decompose in the field nor what the various fibre wads are made of. It is also interesting that nobody is asking for evidence about the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads, whilst questioning evidence of the negative impacts of lead shot.

As per my earlier question, I am not aware of any evidence of livestock ingesting plastic wads, and would be interested in evidence of this.

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 minutes ago, Konor said:

🤣

Questions regarding the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads will soon follow after a legislative ban on lead is enacted. Did you seriously think the appeasement to Wild Justice etc of calling for a voluntary lead ban would halt the drive to see game shooting restricted or abolished? 🤣

BASC Council elections voting closes tomorrow at 10.30am and BASC AGM is this Saturday. Are you going to engage with BASC or is this the fifth year running since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting supported be nine orgs began, that you would prefer to continue to hide behind your keyboard with rather childlike comments on PW? 

[Terry2016]

23 hours ago, Old farrier said:

there on the list of non lead non plastic wads that Basc published on here and Counting appears there are approximately 46 different bioammo cartridges endorsed 🤔

indeed, a list is -not labelling its to show the type of wad etc 

 

8 hours ago, Old farrier said:

What would be really helpful would be for the manufacturer to label how long the wad/ case takes to biodegrade in the environment they are used in 

a great idea... if they knew ... as they do not, they cannot and of course. there would be to many variables due to conditions and temperature for them to state it i recall hull stating 2 years on a video with TGS,. 

I think the point is that they will break down, plastic does not, even some fibre wads have bitumen and many have a plastic caps at the bottom 

[Smudger687]

8 minutes ago, Terry2016 said:

indeed, a list is -not labelling its to show the type of wad etc 

 

a great idea... if they knew ... as they do not, they cannot and of course. there would be to many variables due to conditions and temperature for them to state it i recall hull stating 2 years on a video with TGS,. 

I think the point is that they will break down, plastic does not, even some fibre wads have bitumen and many have a plastic caps at the bottom 

That's an incredible admission - so the manufacturers of these so-called biowads, who market their ammunition as being biodegradable, themselves don't know how long it takes for it to biodegrade? They can't give an estimate for biodegradation, but they're certain that it will break down?

There are not too many variables for them to know, yes there will be differences in degradation rate between environments but they're not so extreme as to make estimation impossible. It's just an excuse for them to hide behind as they know full well that the "biocompostible" materials do not biodegrade at all under normal conditions. Even a cursory investigation into PLA reveals that most environments, especially marine environments, do not possess any of the select few microorganisms that can break down PLA.

BASC really would benefit from a healthy dose of scepticism in relation to manufacturers claims, and dare I say a bit more scientific literacy amongst its more senior members. 

[Konor]

10 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC Council elections voting closes tomorrow at 10.30am and BASC AGM is this Saturday. Are you going to engage with BASC or is this the fifth year running since the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting supported be nine orgs began, that you would prefer to continue to hide behind your keyboard with rather childlike comments on PW? 

Childlike /straight forward  comments that you have no answer to Conor. Why is that?? You would be better taking your focus off me and fighting to represent the interests of ordinary shooters before it's too late or perhaps you know it already is. 

Edited May 15 by Konor
Addition

[Smudger687]

38 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yet still it is interesting that nobody is questioning how long fibre wads take to decompose in the field nor what the various fibre wads are made of. It is also interesting that nobody is asking for evidence about the negative impacts of plastic shotgun wads, whilst questioning evidence of the negative impacts of lead shot.

As per my earlier question, I am not aware of any evidence of livestock ingesting plastic wads, and would be interested in evidence of this.

There's plenty of us, myself included, that dislike plastic wads with a passion. I even homeload with fibre cup wads to avoid slingling plastic onto the foreshore, but have incurred damage to more than one gun from their use. Rather frustrating if you want my opinion on it and I had hoped that the latest factory biowad offerings would offer a viable alternative to these card cup wads. 

In actuality, none of them perform like a plaswad, they all cost significantly more, and only the card and water soluble wads break down at all. 

Very disappointing, not helped by the fact that BASC continues to advertise the biocompostible wads as a green alternative to plaswads, which they are not. 

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I am not aware of any evidence of livestock ingesting plastic wads. Can you provide any?

I doubt there is any evidence 
however the livestock farmers in my area are cautious about the possibility that it could happen and have asked for them not to be used 

 

[Konor]

I notice that on May 24th 2022 that BASC/Conor O'Gorman wrote in a press release that BASC would fight to oppose any restrictions on the use of lead shot where the impact of using such would be negligible. The answer to the question I posed and which was ignored on numerous occasions on this forum.

My questions now Conor are

"Is that still the case and can we look forward to BASC supporting the use of lead shot where the impact of doing so is negligible and of course not supporting it's use where the impact would be considered detrimental to the environment"? 

"Do you feel you let your personal feelings hinder your ability to represent BASC policy"? 

Edited May 14 by Konor
Addition

[rbrowning2]

is not the fact that all of the biodegradable plastic wads will eventually decompose in very much shorter time span than single use plastic wads not satisfactory?  so what if it’s several or tens of years has that not got to be very much better than hundreds of years.  The transition to biodegradable wads makes steel shot tenable and therefore the only sensible way forward.  I for one would not like to have to use steel shot with single use plastic wads. The cartridge cases is not an issue as easy to collect, or let’s go back to paper cases.