Conor O'Gorman Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 (edited) The Metropolitan Police have commenced a trial of new A5-sized firearm and shotgun certificates, taking effect from 3 June 2024. The smaller certificate is already being issued by Hampshire and Isle of Wight police. The new certificates will be identical in format and will use the same official paper, however orientated in ‘landscape’ instead of the traditional ‘portrait’, making them half the size. The move will halve the volume of paper being used for certificates, which will both save money and reduce the environmental impact of issuing new certificates. For the duration of the trial, the Metropolitan Police’s firearms licensing team have asked BASC to seek feedback on the new certificates from shooters located in the force area. This will be will be used when considering whether to make the change permanent. Please email your thoughts and comments to provide input into the decision-making process to BASC's South East regional team at southeast@basc.org.uk and they will collate them and pass on. Edited June 14 by Conor O'Gorman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 It seems worthwhile, providing there is no reduction in the space for adding guns, which is already limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 I have had firearm certificates long enough to remember when they were a little red book about the size of a passport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy H Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 (edited) It may reduce the paper use by half but does it reduce the ammunition acquired and firearm slot's by half leading to some very small handwriting needed. Edited June 14 by Andy H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoli 12 guage Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 19 minutes ago, London Best said: I have had firearm certificates long enough to remember when they were a little red book about the size of a passport. so now, what's wrong with a readable/scannable card sized licence that has all the details carried on a paper licence on an embedded chip? this could be a "card for life" type deal that could be updatable at source and read by the owner or an RFD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down South Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 I have recently received my new SGC & FAC. SGC is a4 folded in half and printed both sides, guns owned on 1 side, grid for transactions the other. FAC is the same but has 2 sheets and the usual entries and grids. Writing will need to be smaller but that will be some one else’s problem as you do’t write on your own certificate. If it’s a money saving exercise then police funding must be dire! It’s the same as admiral Nelson ordering naval ships ensign to be lowered at night when told to reduce costs. I’ve got my new tickets, I’m not too bothered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_b_wales Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 Most police forces should get their acts together and provide a better, quicker service than messing about with different size licences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 I see a fair few Hampshire ones & when I do I always have to go off & find my glasses!! Also too small to write in gun description in box C when filling in a sold/given firearm. And as already said, the ammo boxe is too small. Not very practical for dealers, Gunsmiths, rfd's. If they want my writing and stamp all over it then fine. So be it as that's how I have to fill them in. 9 minutes ago, steve_b_wales said: Most police forces should get their acts together and provide a better, quicker service than messing about with different size licences. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fil Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 55 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said: so now, what's wrong with a readable/scannable card sized licence that has all the details carried on a paper licence on an embedded chip? this could be a "card for life" type deal that could be updatable at source and read by the owner or an RFD. Albeit a great idea but being a gunmaker/dealer/rfd is already expensive enough for me as is with the cost of an rfd that lasts only 3 years, insurance, the premises, electonic register outlay, etc. It would be me having to foot the bill for the machine to do it. Plus they can't even work the data base properly that they have already. Let alone set up a national register that is fed by hundreds of rfd's. But then again, if we take out the manual inputting of details by the police it might just work better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted June 14 Report Share Posted June 14 9 hours ago, steve_b_wales said: Most police forces should get their acts together and provide a better, quicker service than messing about with different size licences. This! I put variation in a month ago in AVS and they've taken my money but not even got to the paperwork yet. My renewal is due in sept and wondering if I'll see my licence before then. Renewal reminder came through today, dated 30th may!! So two weeks after printing.. Sod the size of the paper, sort out the service first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 Still only 5 slots on table 2, and the annoying part is that there's plenty of margin to make the boxes bigger, however they don't go close to the edges of the paper so it makes it hard work for all details to be fully clear. I actually love the smaller format, it makes a lot of sense. I believe it saves HantsPol thousands of pounds a year, but I would love to see bigger boxes, and a consideration to have more boxes so that if you like to buy and sell guns that you aren't wasting time getting replacements! It'll change the market on certificate holders, when I looked 2 years ago there's only really 1 wallet out there for the new format without folding and creasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 13 minutes ago, HantsRob said: a consideration to have more boxes so that if you like to buy and sell guns that you aren't wasting time getting replacements The certificates are granted for ‘good reason to possess’. That does not include a liking to buy and sell guns. If you want to keep buying and selling guns you should apply for an RFD licence. It is very possible that all those constantly buying and selling from an ordinary certificate are what is causing many of the backlogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoli 12 guage Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, London Best said: The certificates are granted for ‘good reason to possess’. That does not include a liking to buy and sell guns. If you want to keep buying and selling guns you should apply for an RFD licence. It is very possible that all those constantly buying and selling from an ordinary certificate are what is causing many of the backlogs. how can you buy and sell on a firearms licence 🤷♀️ you need an open slot for each firearm acquired AND THEN hope you get a bargain in that/those calibre/s AND THEN find someone that wants it so you can move it on. i would suspect that even dimmest plod could work out a pattern if you were doing that. doing it on an SGC is a different matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, Zoli 12 guage said: how can you buy and sell on a firearms licence 🤷♀️ you need an open slot for each firearm acquired AND THEN hope you get a bargain in that/those calibre/s AND THEN find someone that wants it so you can move it on. i would suspect that even dimmest plod could work out a pattern if you were doing that. doing it on an SGC is a different matter. Correct, but a Shotgun Certificate give you ‘authority to possess’ shotguns, not to buy and sell ad infinitum for a hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoli 12 guage Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 1 hour ago, London Best said: Correct, but a Shotgun Certificate give you ‘authority to possess’ shotguns, not to buy and sell ad infinitum for a hobby. I didn't say it did, it's just possible to do it on an SGC until you get rumbled by the old bill 👍😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 5 hours ago, London Best said: The certificates are granted for ‘good reason to possess’. That does not include a liking to buy and sell guns. If you want to keep buying and selling guns you should apply for an RFD licence. It is very possible that all those constantly buying and selling from an ordinary certificate are what is causing many of the backlogs. Yes, we have had this discussion before. I don't think 6 gun purchases in 5 years is unreasonable, and I am sure my FEO wouldn't approve me being an RFD for buying and selling 6-8 guns in 5 years. If those that are "constantly" buying and selling give enough perpetual volume to a team, then it is a case they are understaffed and not the SGC holders to blame.If anything I am saying more boxes on a licence so it lasts 5 years would stop unnecessary cost and re-printing and time, which would reduce time spent and less backlogs. 57 minutes ago, Zoli 12 guage said: I didn't say it did, it's just possible to do it on an SGC until you get rumbled by the old bill 👍😉 I only have a SGC, and not FAC. Also I doubt having a re-print of a licence because I have built an initial collection and need a second licence in 5 years is something I will particularly get rumbled with. I suspect some folk forget the excitement of a new shooter, and then trying different calibres, and also upgrading in the first few years. Or, they only have 1 gun and haven't changed for 20 years, maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 @HantsRob No, six purchases in five years is not unreasonable as a one off event on a single certificate, but if people carry on like that on certificate after certificate then they are taking the P out of the right to possess shotguns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 46 minutes ago, London Best said: @HantsRob No, six purchases in five years is not unreasonable as a one off event on a single certificate, but if people carry on like that on certificate after certificate then they are taking the P out of the right to possess shotguns. Objectively - why? I am not sure why it would take the P. I ask with a view of open and honest debate, and I wonder what your personal tipping point is. My thought, to answer it indirectly.... The right to possess is in law, it doesn't say a reasonable amount that you can own, or how often you change? I would suspect peoples level of tolerance to what is acceptable is very subjective, however I wonder at what point an FEO would define "personal purchasing and selling" to become a business, and therefore require an RFDs licence. What if you have friends moving home and need you to look after their gun for more than 72 hours? It is possible if you do that for a few friends that own 4-5 guns each, that's in essence a licence every time a friend moves home. It is within the realms of possibility that buying yourself 1 gun a year and helping 1 friend a year that you could need 5 licences a year, meaning cost and re-printing etc. I would suggest it is not all black and white, and the burden on reprinting and processing also falls down to only having 5 boxes. I am aware you have a wealth of knowledge and experience, and certainly more than me, but as we have such differing opinions I am trying to learn also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 2 hours ago, London Best said: @HantsRob No, six purchases in five years is not unreasonable as a one off event on a single certificate, but if people carry on like that on certificate after certificate then they are taking the P out of the right to possess shotguns. Six is definitely not enough new license holder will fill them in no time first gun cheap one for starting (gift ) better one game gun side by side twenty bore 410 or moderated something probably a semiautomatic or pump trap gun skeet gun that’s just a newcomer to the sport Then you have a older long term license holder friends retire from shooting and give up their license and give them to you or worse ill health forces them to move them on or the friend that you look after them for while they move house it doesn’t take much to fill up the slots my uncle had to go into a nursing home gave me his 6 guns (left handed)with the instructions that upon his demise I was to dispose of them for the best price and buy myself a decent gun with the money not enough slots to get the new one without sending it off so in my opinion more space would save some time and money for some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HantsRob Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 14 hours ago, Old farrier said: 410 or moderated something How is it going with the 410 by the way? That is such a lovely piece that you own! ❤️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 2 hours ago, HantsRob said: How is it going with the 410 by the way? That is such a lovely piece that you own! ❤️ It’s fine seems to be able to hold its own against the others 😂😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Best Posted June 18 Report Share Posted June 18 35 minutes ago, Old farrier said: It’s fine seems to be able to hold its own against the others 😂😂😂 All down to the ‘nut behind the butt’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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