Buying Gun at distance

[button]

If you were to buy a gun at an rfd at distance, are you covered by the buying at distance rules, ie if you change your mind for any reason you are entitled to a refund less any charges as long as returned within 14 days?

TIA

[sam triple]

I’m not sure but lighting in shops can make wood etc look better than it actually is , I saw a gun on line went to the shop to view it and it looked nothing like the picture !

[London Best]

Buying a gun at a distance???

Don’t even think about it!!!

[rbrowning2]

I guess yes, but you would have to then apply for a 1:1 variation before you could buy again if a section 1 firearm, less trouble if a section 2 shotgun, other than notify the Police.

 

Edited June 15 by rbrowning2

[Westley]

I prefer to make a 'day out' of the event, possibly taking in a shooting ground too. Otherwise, it's a couple of days away, stopping at a Premier Inn or similar. I have only once used an RFD to RFD, thankfully it all went OK. 

[jeffgg]

Go and look then you no what you are getting 

[steve_b_wales]

I bought a brand new .308 rifle from a RFD (up north) and when it turned up, I couldn't chamber any rounds, so sent it back and had another one. A bit of a nuisance with the variation but my local police (south Wales) helped me out with this. It's a bit different with purchasing new other than second hand, I know, but I believe that the same laws apply.

Edited June 15 by steve_b_wales

[bruno22rf]

If it's RFD - RFD then you would surely have the opportunity to inspect the gun before you agreed that it was "as described"? If not then I cannot see why the Distance Selling (Consumer Protection Act) wont protect you, I believe you have 14 days to inform the seller that you wish to cancel the contract and then a further 14 days to return the item. You do not have to give a reason.

[button]

11 minutes ago, bruno22rf said:

If it's RFD - RFD then you would surely have the opportunity to inspect the gun before you agreed that it was "as described"? If not then I cannot see why the Distance Selling (Consumer Protection Act) wont protect you, I believe you have 14 days to inform the seller that you wish to cancel the contract and then a further 14 days to return the item. You do not have to give a reason.

That’s my thinking👍

[wyn]

If the rfd to rfd is just for transporting it then i'm sure you have to send your cert to the seller for him to fill it in.

Sounds like it could turn into loads of grief.

[bruno22rf]

54 minutes ago, wyn said:

If the rfd to rfd is just for transporting it then i'm sure you have to send your cert to the seller for him to fill it in.

Sounds like it could turn into loads of grief.

I think you may be correct (although I have witnessed it being done without the cert being filled in) but that does not bypass the Law, it can be more hassle but then if you pay for something that is not as described or even not as you hoped (distance) then you are entitled to a refund. Few years ago I got caught by a seller describing a Nikko shotgun as an "INDY" - but it turned out otherwise, gun returned, cert altered and full refund - it was a genuine mistake so I will not name the dealer but it can, and does, happen.

[steve_b_wales]

7 hours ago, wyn said:

If the rfd to rfd is just for transporting it then i'm sure you have to send your cert to the seller for him to fill it in.

Sounds like it could turn into loads of grief.

You are correct. This is the proper and legal way to do this. A certificate must be sent to the selling RFD for them to enter the details of the sale etc.

[Gunman]

19 hours ago, button said:

If you were to buy a gun at an rfd at distance, are you covered by the buying at distance rules, ie if you change your mind for any reason you are entitled to a refund less any charges as long as returned within 14 days?

TIA

Depends on whether you trust the dealer . Always a risk buying unseen even when you are in the trade ,buying from unknows, RFD's or not .

If possible try to get someone local to look on your behalf ,or, Have it sent to an RFD on approval  with a 7 day purchase or return agreement . 

It is not fair to ask the receiving RFD for an opinion as they are acting solely as a go between and could be loosing a sale so may be biased against the gun or the seller .

In the past when I (we) acted as agents in this sort of transaction we would open the package in front of the customer and let him make up his own mind .  

[Westley]

With current notifications of purchases or sales on a Shotgun Certificate being completed 'on line', I don't believe it matters as to who fills in the Shotgun Certificate,  as long as ALL of the details are correct. 

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

With current notifications of purchases or sales on a Shotgun Certificate being completed 'on line', I don't believe it matters as to who fills in the Shotgun Certificate,  as long as ALL of the details are correct. 

Read your certificate it is the sellers legal responsibility to complete the purchaser certificate.

lots of other factors could come in to play, like sales of goods act, it is against the law to sell a firearm to someone who does not have authority to possess it. what happens if it arrives at the receiving RFD and the potential buy just walk away given no entry has been completed on their certificate who pays for returning it? What happens if it is faulty. Where or when and to who does the money go.

As always buyer beware.

 

[Westley]

23 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Read your certificate it is the sellers legal responsibility to complete the purchaser certificate.

lots of other factors could come in to play, like sales of goods act, it is against the law to sell a firearm to someone who does not have authority to possess it. what happens if it arrives at the receiving RFD and the potential buy just walk away given no entry has been completed on their certificate who pays for returning it? What happens if it is faulty. Where or when and to who does the money go.

As always buyer beware.

 

Yes, I am well aware of that, but who checks  ?   I recently bought a gun in a private sale, although I complied with the requirements, also making sure he did too........to a point.  I filled in the relevant bits, he signed it. We both then informed the relevant Force on line, which was quite acceptable, to ALL parties. On the only occasion that I have used RFD to RFD, the receiving RFD completed my Certificate. 

Edited June 16 by Westley

[rbrowning2]

Introduction

details on how ‘remote’ (long distance) transactions must work i.e. where a buyer purchases a firearm or shotgun from a dealer/private certificate holder elsewhere in the UK without being present.

What the law says

 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997:

 32 - (Transfers of firearms etc. to be in person).

 (1) This section applies where, in Great Britain—

(a) a firearm or ammunition to which section 1 of the 1968 Act applies is sold, let on hire, lent or given by any person, or

(b) a shotgun is sold, let on hire or given, or lent for a period of more than 72 hours by any person,to another person who is neither a registered firearms dealer nor a person who is entitled to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition without holding a firearm or shotgun certificate or a visitor’s firearm or shotgun permit.

 (2) Where a transfer to which this section applies takes place—

(a) the transferee must produce to the transferor the certificate or permit entitling him to purchase or acquire the firearm or ammunition being transferred;

 (b) the transferor must comply with any instructions contained in the certificate or permit produced by the transferee;

 (c) the transferor must hand the firearm or ammunition to the transferee, and thetransferee must receive it, in person.

 (3) A failure by the transferor or transferee to comply with subsection (2) above shall be an offence.

 Firearms Act 1968 Section 57 (4):

“Acquire” means hire, accept as a gift or borrow and “acquisition” shall be construed accordingly.

“Transfer” includes let on hire, give, lend and part with possession, and “transferee” and “transferor” shall be construed accordingly.

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 The Firearms Rules 1998; (Rule 1(6), Part II of Schedule 1, Rule 5(6) and Part II of Schedule 2):

 The firearms rules set the “Instructions to anybody who sells, lets on hire, gives or lends firearms or ammunition to the holder” (of a certificate).

 Instruction 3 (below) on both a Firearms and Shotgun Certificate; requires the necessary transfer details to be completed by the seller for a long distance sale.

 3. Any circumstances attending the transaction which appear to require investigation must be reported within 48 hours to the chief officer of police who granted this certificate. If you are  selling a firearm [or shotgun] which will be sent or posted to another dealer for the buyer to collect in person you should complete this table and notify the police. The dealer who actually hands over the firearm should not complete the table or notify the police (except in circumstances which may require police investigation as above).

 What the law means

 All certificate instructions provided by the Firearms Rules 1998 are legally binding and supported by Section 32(2)(b) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997.

 Accordingly instruction 3 is binding on any seller. Both private and trade sales are caught. Section 32(2)(a) requires the buyer (transferee) to produce the original certificate to the seller (transferor). This is echoed by a specific offence in Section 3(2) of the Firearms Act 1968 Act. “It is an offence to sell or transfer to any other person in the United Kingdom, other than a registered firearms dealer, any firearm or ammunition to which Section 1 of this Act applies, or a shotgun, unless that other produces a firearm certificate authorising him to purchase or acquire

 it or, as the case may be, his shotgun certificate, or shows that he is by virtue of this Act entitled to purchase or acquire it without holding a certificate.” In the case of a remote (long distance) sale, the certificate will have to be posted to the dealer or private certificate holder selling the firearm. They will endorse it and return it.

 Section 32(2)(c) requires a ‘face-to-face’ transfer between all certificate holders and where a dealer sells to a certificate holder. Section 32(1) exempts the face-to-face requirement for a dealer to dealer transfer. Accordingly the firearm cannot be sent to the certificate holders (buyers) home address. This means a selling dealer may freely send the firearm via carrier (courier) to a second dealer for the customer to collect in person. A private seller has two options;

 a) They may send a firearm (through legal postal means) to the dealer in the locality of the buyer.

 b) They may engage their local dealer to act as a ‘bailee’ (a person to whom property is entrusted for a particular purpose by another; such as the forwarding of goods). A dealer will need to use a registered carrier service. Carriers are exempt from the certificate requirement under Section 9 of the Firearms Act 1968.

 The following processes apply:

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 1) The process for private sales by firearm or shotgun certificate holders.

 a) The private seller must make the necessary entries on the buyer’s firearm or shotgun

 certificate and notify the chief officer of police who issued that certificate. Once the transfer is

 made on paper, the certificate can be returned to the buyer by post.

 b) The seller then sends the firearm to the relevant dealer in the buyers locality to effect the final

‘face-to-face’ transfer required by Section 32(2)(c) of the 1997 Act. The seller may also utilisenhis own local dealer to send to the buyer’s dealer. (See (c) below)

 2) The process for trade (dealer) sale of stock items.

 a) The selling dealer (Dealer A) must make the necessary entries on the buyer’s firearm or

 shotgun certificate and notify the ‘sale’ to the chief officer of police who issued that certificate.

 Once the transfer is made on paper, the certificate can be returned to the buyer by post.

 b) The dealer must also make an entry in his dealer’s register showing that he has ‘sold’ the firearm to a customer, which must include;

“The quantities and descriptions of firearms and ammunition sold or transferred with the names and addresses of the purchasers or transferees and (except in cases where the purchaser or transferee is a registered firearms dealer) the area in which the firearm certificates were issued and the dates of the several transactions.” [Firearms Act 1968,

 Schedule 4 (as amended)].

 The entry must show his transfer to the buyers local dealer (Dealer B) as well as to the customer i.e. “sale to customer via Dealer B”.

c) The seller (Dealer A) may then send the firearm to the relevant dealer in the buyer’s locality (Dealer B) to effect the final ‘face-to-face’ transfer with the buyer required by Section 32(2)(c) of the 1997 Act.

 3) The process for Dealer B receiving and transferring firearms to a buyer.

 a) Upon receipt of the firearm, it must be booked into his dealer’s register as normal.

 b) When the buyer comes to collect their purchase (with their previously endorsed certificate) the dealer checks the details to ensure he is entitled to take possession of the firearm and hands the firearm over. The 1968 definition of ‘transfer’ includes “parting with possession which must be something other than selling, letting on hire, giving or lending. Accordingly; it follows that the procedures set out in Section 32(2) of the 1997 Act do not apply if the

 transaction is no more than a parting with possession (see 3 below). Therefore there isn’t any requirement to notify the police of such a transfer as the certificate instructions would normally require.

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 d) ‘Parting with possession’ does not create a duty to make an entry on the certificate nor to notify the police.

 e) There remains the duty to make the appropriate entry (showing disposal of the firearm) in the

 dealer’s register kept under Section 40 of the 1968 Act perhaps with the reference - “transfer on behalf of Dealer A or certificate holder Z”. The entry must include;

“The quantities and descriptions of firearms and ammunition sold or transferred with the names and addresses of the purchasers or transferees and (except in cases where the purchaser or transferee is a registered firearms dealer) the area in which the firearm certificates were issued and the dates of the several transactions.” [Firearms Act 1968, Schedule 4 (as amended)]