Difficult to decoy

[kitchrat]

In this video, at minutes 5.30-7.00, Geoff Garrod describes exactly what I have been finding.

Fieldsports Britain – Decoying without decoys - Fieldsports Channell

(right click then "open link in new tab")

Interesting to see he does not use a magnet and gives up with the flapper and that he is using 3/4 choke to take not-so-close shots. Of course, he is a much better shot than I ever was but the thought's the same.

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Careful, you'll only wind other Members up....................

[mellors]

What he says at the end is more important. 

An afternoon in the hide shot a few pigeons. 

I don't think he's as good a shot as they show watch the last 3 videos pause them when they show outside the hide there's at least 100 empty cartridges around the front of the hide. 

Also watch andy crow watch the slabs of cartridges empty during the videos. 

They never show how many they miss. 

 

[Old Boggy]

4 minutes ago, mellors said:

What he says at the end is more important. 

An afternoon in the hide shot a few pigeons. 

I don't think he's as good a shot as they show watch the last 3 videos pause them when they show outside the hide there's at least 100 empty cartridges around the front of the hide. 

Also watch andy crow watch the slabs of cartridges empty during the videos. 

They never show how many they miss. 

 

I once asked Jack Hargreaves how his programmes always showed him catching fish. His reply was that if they showed all the times that no catches were made, it wouldn`t make for good television and would be pretty boring. He admitted that time spent not catching, by far outweighed the catches.

Not quite the same as pigeon shooting but on a similar vein.

OB

[Wilts#Dave]

24 minutes ago, mellors said:

What he says at the end is more important. 

An afternoon in the hide shot a few pigeons. 

I don't think he's as good a shot as they show watch the last 3 videos pause them when they show outside the hide there's at least 100 empty cartridges around the front of the hide. 

Also watch andy crow watch the slabs of cartridges empty during the videos. 

They never show how many they miss. 

 

Everyone misses, don’t care what they say! As others no doubt are I consider myself a fair shot, but some days when the birds are jinking on the wind etc or not playing ball I’ll miss my fair share…..other days they present themselves much better and I’ll consistently knock them down one after the other. 
 

[mellors]

There's one of Mr Garrod set up on a failed crop half way through the hedges had been cut so obviously filmed over more than one day. . 

Another where you could see a quad in the distance moving pigeons. 

Yes they have been difficult to decoy recently no idea why. 

 

[yickdaz]

17 minutes ago, Wilts#Dave said:

Everyone misses, don’t care what they say! As others no doubt are I consider myself a fair shot, but some days when the birds are jinking on the wind etc or not playing ball I’ll miss my fair share…..other days they present themselves much better and I’ll consistently knock them down one after the other. 
 

Yep I shot a flightline last sat and half the birds were coming down wind and not  slowing I shot some corkers and missed some corkers I picked 27 and fired approx 45 carts on a decoying day I average 8 for 10  even had 24 for 25 once and hit the other one I ended up with 32 for 35 shots  that day  but add a good wind and that rate falls right off 

Edited June 26 by yickdaz

[kitchrat]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Careful, you'll only wind other Members up....................

Ha Ha, good one!!

[marsh man]

What you find with a lot of the old time decoyers is shooting over decoys become a knack and the one who is holding the gun seem to know what the Pigeon is going to do before the Pigeon do , this changed a lot when the rotary first came on the scene and more so nowadays when just about every Pigeon up and down the country have seen two Pigeons going around in circles and ending up the same place where they started , add the glinting arms and the rotary might have been placed in the wrong place , this make a very good average that much more difficult , my brother who is now over 80 can still hold his own on a round of sporting clays but in his prime when he was decoying sometimes three or even four times a week he was a very good decoyer and a decent shot to go with it , this was well before the rotary came on the scene and in those days if a Pigeon started to commit to his decoys then he had to be a very lucky Pigeon to survive , when the session was over then you did get the odd Pigeon that was dropped outside the decoys but the bulk were laying amongst the decoys and very often on top of each other , alright some were very easy and this down to how he decoyed and was at a time when every Pigeon shot was going to be sold , so the better his average then the less it was going to cost him for the cartridges .

How would he get on nowadays ? , I don't know really but it would jarr him off if he had a rotary out and Pigeon's took a dislike when they came within 50/60 yards so I think he would just stick to putting 12 dead Pigeons out on cradles and maybe two on floaters , then if he was killing a lot of Pigeons the dead ones would be put out until he thought he had enough decoys out , this would normally be around 50  , without a shadow of doubt I would say Pigeon shooting have changed a lot since Archie Coates days, are the Pigeons wiser now ? some maybe but the ones I get nowadays are not that clever 

[kitchrat]

43 minutes ago, marsh man said:

What you find with a lot of the old time decoyers is shooting over decoys become a knack and the one who is holding the gun seem to know what the Pigeon is going to do before the Pigeon do , this changed a lot when the rotary first came on the scene and more so nowadays when just about every Pigeon up and down the country have seen two Pigeons going around in circles and ending up the same place where they started , add the glinting arms and the rotary might have been placed in the wrong place , this make a very good average that much more difficult , my brother who is now over 80 can still hold his own on a round of sporting clays but in his prime when he was decoying sometimes three or even four times a week he was a very good decoyer and a decent shot to go with it , this was well before the rotary came on the scene and in those days if a Pigeon started to commit to his decoys then he had to be a very lucky Pigeon to survive , when the session was over then you did get the odd Pigeon that was dropped outside the decoys but the bulk were laying amongst the decoys and very often on top of each other , alright some were very easy and this down to how he decoyed and was at a time when every Pigeon shot was going to be sold , so the better his average then the less it was going to cost him for the cartridges .

How would he get on nowadays ? , I don't know really but it would jarr him off if he had a rotary out and Pigeon's took a dislike when they came within 50/60 yards so I think he would just stick to putting 12 dead Pigeons out on cradles and maybe two on floaters , then if he was killing a lot of Pigeons the dead ones would be put out until he thought he had enough decoys out , this would normally be around 50  , without a shadow of doubt I would say Pigeon shooting have changed a lot since Archie Coates days, are the Pigeons wiser now ? some maybe but the ones I get nowadays are not that clever 

Do I start out with a magnet tomorrow or not?? Out in the middle maybe they can't miss seeing the decoys (the crop is very short), so perhaps I'll put a couple of birds on floaters and see what happens. If they go right by I'll go to the magnet. Will report!

[Wilts#Dave]

1 hour ago, kitchrat said:

Do I start out with a magnet tomorrow or not?? Out in the middle maybe they can't miss seeing the decoys (the crop is very short), so perhaps I'll put a couple of birds on floaters and see what happens. If they go right by I'll go to the magnet. Will report!

Very rarely find I get more sport without the magnet personally! But then again I’ve never rated floaters either, only ever use them alongside the magnet in standing wheat/barley. 

[marsh man]

3 hours ago, kitchrat said:

Do I start out with a magnet tomorrow or not?? Out in the middle maybe they can't miss seeing the decoys (the crop is very short), so perhaps I'll put a couple of birds on floaters and see what happens. If they go right by I'll go to the magnet. Will report!

We have had many , many threads about the advantage and the disadvantages of using a magnet while Pigeon shooting and for a lot of decoyers it more a part of the kit than the decoys and even the cartridges , most who take a magnet will put it out to begin with and alter it maybe once or twice as the day wear on , if the alterations don't work then it's a good chance the decoyer will bring it back in , slightly less are the ones who take a magnet and set up with static decoys and see what effect they have without any battery devices , if the decoys themselves don't have the desired effect then the magnet might come into play , so whatever you decide it will most likely be the wrong decision , it's your choice 

[yickdaz]

5 hours ago, marsh man said:

What you find with a lot of the old time decoyers is shooting over decoys become a knack and the one who is holding the gun seem to know what the Pigeon is going to do before the Pigeon do , this changed a lot when the rotary first came on the scene and more so nowadays when just about every Pigeon up and down the country have seen two Pigeons going around in circles and ending up the same place where they started , add the glinting arms and the rotary might have been placed in the wrong place , this make a very good average that much more difficult , my brother who is now over 80 can still hold his own on a round of sporting clays but in his prime when he was decoying sometimes three or even four times a week he was a very good decoyer and a decent shot to go with it , this was well before the rotary came on the scene and in those days if a Pigeon started to commit to his decoys then he had to be a very lucky Pigeon to survive , when the session was over then you did get the odd Pigeon that was dropped outside the decoys but the bulk were laying amongst the decoys and very often on top of each other , alright some were very easy and this down to how he decoyed and was at a time when every Pigeon shot was going to be sold , so the better his average then the less it was going to cost him for the cartridges .

How would he get on nowadays ? , I don't know really but it would jarr him off if he had a rotary out and Pigeon's took a dislike when they came within 50/60 yards so I think he would just stick to putting 12 dead Pigeons out on cradles and maybe two on floaters , then if he was killing a lot of Pigeons the dead ones would be put out until he thought he had enough decoys out , this would normally be around 50  , without a shadow of doubt I would say Pigeon shooting have changed a lot since Archie Coates days, are the Pigeons wiser now ? some maybe but the ones I get nowadays are not that clever 

Principles are still the same watch the flightlines pick the spot they want set decoys out etc etc only thing that has changed is gadgets 

[kitchrat]

10 hours ago, yickdaz said:

Principles are still the same watch the flightlines pick the spot they want set decoys out etc etc only thing that has changed is gadgets 

Trouble is I can see no flightlines, after hours of watching.  They seem to watch from a very safe distance, all over the place, then following in when a bird lands safely. This suggests a magnet might work but they seemed to shy away at extreme range when I tried on the other field. No favourite part of this field,(29 acres) they just follow where the 1st bird went in OK, except the headlands are not popular (crop is very thin). Hence the hide in the middle but it will, to my mind, stand out like a sore thumb. In order to remain hidden, with a roof, I am left with a very restricted angle of fire (also because of solar panels on the next farm) but at least there will be some wind so I may be able to control the angle of approach (hopefully)

I'll start with shells and 2 floaters, if that doesn't work, in goes a magnet. There are not that many birds using the field so by the time you know it's not working, it's all over. Wish me luck, I'm going to need it but "the Farmer expects every man to do his duty!".

[marsh man]

10 hours ago, yickdaz said:

Principles are still the same watch the flightlines pick the spot they want set decoys out etc etc only thing that has changed is gadgets 

Principles might well be the same ,but the farming practices have changed since the godfather of Pigeon ( Archie Coates ) first got a lot of people into Pigeon shooting , we gained most of our early permissions by seeing Pigeons going on the Spring drillings , nowadays you would have too do a lot of miles to find the same in the Springtime as most crops are drilled without seeing a single Pigeon eating whatever is left behind the drill , again for most people the shooting over o s r is a complete waste of time , this might well be down to the quantity grown , we were lucky and had some of the first o s r grain in the area and this was on marshland , they said in those days that the Pigeons treated it like a drug , they just couldn't leave it alone and as we never had a 4 x 4 we used to bring the dead Pigeons back by the barrow load , now come Maytime you can see fields in Yellow flower as far as the eye can see and in the places that don't hold a lot of Pigeons trying to get a big bag off rape is nigh on impossible .

Same with the grain crops , normally you see very few fields that are flattened by heavy wind and rain as the crop now have shorter and thicker stems , this year might be slightly different as some farmers have cut corners due to the price of spraying and the bad early wet growing conditions , on top of all that the countryside is getting smaller , the demand for Pigeons have fallen through the floor and the cost of living is taking effect on how much you can spend on shooting pigeons with the high cost of fuel and cartridges , these are only some of the things that have changed and I am sure there are many more , apart from the principles of course .      MM 

[kitchrat]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

Principles might well be the same ,but the farming practices have changed since the godfather of Pigeon ( Archie Coates ) first got a lot of people into Pigeon shooting , we gained most of our early permissions by seeing Pigeons going on the Spring drillings , nowadays you would have too do a lot of miles to find the same in the Springtime as most crops are drilled without seeing a single Pigeon eating whatever is left behind the drill , again for most people the shooting over o s r is a complete waste of time , this might well be down to the quantity grown , we were lucky and had some of the first o s r grain in the area and this was on marshland , they said in those days that the Pigeons treated it like a drug , they just couldn't leave it alone and as we never had a 4 x 4 we used to bring the dead Pigeons back by the barrow load , now come Maytime you can see fields in Yellow flower as far as the eye can see and in the places that don't hold a lot of Pigeons trying to get a big bag off rape is nigh on impossible .

Same with the grain crops , normally you see very few fields that are flattened by heavy wind and rain as the crop now have shorter and thicker stems , this year might be slightly different as some farmers have cut corners due to the price of spraying and the bad early wet growing conditions , on top of all that the countryside is getting smaller , the demand for Pigeons have fallen through the floor and the cost of living is taking effect on how much you can spend on shooting pigeons with the high cost of fuel and cartridges , these are only some of the things that have changed and I am sure there are many more , apart from the principles of course .      MM 

Added to this, the farmer in question has gas guns and scarecrows on the field, plus a couple of "Old Boys", one on an electric bike, one in a car with air horns, who each ride round the tramlines a couple of times a day, plus the odd rocket or two. No wonder they are not settled!

Now, of course, combines are so much better at retaining grain and what does get through is covered by chopped straw so the pigeons can't get at it (they can't/don't scratch for some reason)

I'm praying for thunder to flatten some winter barley, but see no hope here in Essex. (If  it comes it will probably be when I'm in this hide and I have to run for cover!)

Cheers all!

[Wilts#Dave]

55 minutes ago, kitchrat said:

Added to this, the farmer in question has gas guns and scarecrows on the field, plus a couple of "Old Boys", one on an electric bike, one in a car with air horns, who each ride round the tramlines a couple of times a day, plus the odd rocket or two. No wonder they are not settled!

Now, of course, combines are so much better at retaining grain and what does get through is covered by chopped straw so the pigeons can't get at it (they can't/don't scratch for some reason)

I'm praying for thunder to flatten some winter barley, but see no hope here in Essex. (If  it comes it will probably be when I'm in this hide and I have to run for cover!)

Cheers all!

If you’ve got ‘old boys’ like that there scaring the birds daily that’ll go some way to explaining the issue. You may be better off looking elsewhere if that’s an option, I’ve had similar issues in the past and it makes it impossible to shoot a decent bag. 
All my big days come from farms/fields where they’ve been left alone to build up, then I’ll leave it again for a week or two and go again if the numbers are there. 
 

[kitchrat]

26 minutes ago, Wilts#Dave said:

If you’ve got ‘old boys’ like that there scaring the birds daily that’ll go some way to explaining the issue. You may be better off looking elsewhere if that’s an option, I’ve had similar issues in the past and it makes it impossible to shoot a decent bag. 
All my big days come from farms/fields where they’ve been left alone to build up, then I’ll leave it again for a week or two and go again if the numbers are there. 
 

I wish! No other peas that I know of, no flattered barley, lots of wheat, lots of maize, lots of borage, (no interest shown). They seem to be off even the weakest patches of rape . Lots of horse paddocks with a few on them. What to do but go through the motions to fulfil my duties!?

[mellors]

Blimey no wonder your struggling. 

If that's all you've got maybe try late afternoon 4 or 5 pm for a couple of hours see if that works. 

Or as said look for somewhere else. 

[martinj]

20 minutes ago, mellors said:

Blimey no wonder your struggling. 

If that's all you've got maybe try late afternoon 4 or 5 pm for a couple of hours see if that works. 

Or as said look for somewhere else. 

Good advice, success can be related to the time of day, also "no flight lines," if you think you are going to get a crack at the birds watching from a distance, think again because they'll be off after the first couple of shots.

When decoying there is not much chance of success without a flight line of sorts, your birds must come from a source outside earshot of your shots. However, as suggested above, you might find that activity develops at a different time of day to your reconnaissance sessions. It's not much use setting up at 10am when it all kicks off at 2:30pm which is sometimes the time it happens (if it is going to) where I shoot.

[kitchrat]

12 minutes ago, martinj said:

Good advice, success can be related to the time of day, also "no flight lines," if you think you are going to get a crack at the birds watching from a distance, think again because they'll be off after the first couple of shots.

When decoying there is not much chance of success without a flight line of sorts, your birds must come from a source outside earshot of your shots. However, as suggested above, you might find that activity develops at a different time of day to your reconnaissance sessions. It's not much use setting up at 10am when it all kicks off at 2:30pm which is sometimes the time it happens (if it is going to) where I shoot.

I've been looking at all times of day and elsewhere, believe me. Just heard about birds dropping onto rape in pod so that's a possibility. Today is now getting too windy for a hide in the middle, I may have to retreat to the protection of a tree but at least it will make them come in upwind and will cover the sound of any shots I might have.

[martinj]

if there are no birds you can't shoot them, that's a sad fact. That's why I'm not shooting and haven't been for weeks and weeks. I'm hoping to have a go at the weekend.

Good luck finding shot birds in standing Oilseed Rape 

[oldypigeonpopper]

10 minutes ago, martinj said:

if there are no birds you can't shoot them, that's a sad fact. That's why I'm not shooting and haven't been for weeks and weeks. I'm hoping to have a go at the weekend.

Good luck finding shot birds in standing Oilseed Rape 

Hello, That is what happened this last year or 2 for me, Hoping there maybe be chance on the Barley fields soon, 

[marsh man]

We hear so much about shooting under a flight line, well I very much doubt a lot of those who say that have never shot over crops on the marsh land as flight lines do not exist , on some marshes where I used to shoot had a minimum of a five mile straight line of crops with only the odd marsh track that separated the fields , one advantage was the telegraph wires ran down the middle of most of the fields and when a crop was suitable for Pigeons you then scanned the telegraph wire to see where they were , once you found them then they would arrive from every point of the compass and would flight from one field to another , certain fields over the years can produce very good bags as these are left with no interference from the land owner , the hard part was getting where the Pigeons were and even harder still getting your bag off , you could easily be down there for several days without seeing a soul , seeing another shooter was as rare as seeing a Blue moon , it just didn't happen . Happy days .  MM

[Wilts#Dave]

5 hours ago, kitchrat said:

I wish! No other peas that I know of, no flattered barley, lots of wheat, lots of maize, lots of borage, (no interest shown). They seem to be off even the weakest patches of rape . Lots of horse paddocks with a few on them. What to do but go through the motions to fulfil my duties!?

Ahh pity that. Without sounding rude doing so, maybe worth mentioning to the farmer when he says about the pigeons next time why it’s so difficult?! Do these old boys not shoot them, as you’d think they’d realise their tactics aren’t conducive to reducing the numbers!