Notting hill carnival

[Yellow Bear]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

In other words, we cant do anything about it, but what he really means is , we cant do anything about it without offending my vote base.

Sorry I thought it needed a small change.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Sorry I thought it needed a small change.

[Mice!]

6 hours ago, Mungler said:

Indeed, just stopping the target market and lifting knives off them has to be a start of somewhere, no? If those concerned had the increased expectation of being stopped, searched and their bladed article removed from their person (and followed up with a night in the cells and a prosecution process for better or for worse), there will still be a fall in knife crime. Which is an improvement to now.

I was just going to type this, it's not necessarily about getting convictions, it's about stopping people carrying knives.

Carrying a knife into town is not the same as going fishing, shooting or camping,  there's no need for a knife heading to a carnival. 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

They had airport style metal detectors set up already, but it was optional if you went through them 

That's ridiculous,  obviously those carrying something aren't going to go through them.

We went through them going into Thorpe Park, there were a lot of teenagers in there, and you know that everyone has been through the metal detectors to get in.

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Prolonged stop and search with no grounds before the event would probably unleash an even worse backlash, with an even more angry demographic angry at the establishment in the long term, with even more stabbings to look forward to in future. 

Big signs, for your safety EVERYONE is walking through the metal detectors,  please have a safe and enjoyable time, anyone not willing to go through them will be turned away. 

I couldn't care less about people being offended by targeted stop and search, I'm pretty sure that getting stabbed will hurt more than their feelings

[ditchman]

the word is the govt are talking about relocating the event........

what about westminister.....Belgrade.....Chelsea ?????

or even better

Alaska

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

That is absolute defeatist liberal hand wringing nonsense right there.

So you’re against targeted stop and search because it’s going to upset a narrow minority who are statistically the most at risk of being stabbed / stabbing.

I’ll bet you £20 to charity right now that everyone hauled in for the carnival knife murders fits into the target demographic mentioned above - male, non white and 16-30. And what a flukey coincidence that would be - or would it be where the factual data and stats take us?

Again, I look forward to your alternative effective strategy and where no one gets upset or offended 😆

Ah, to ignore the truth and the stats to not cause offence or upset. Madness.

And boy o boy was Trevor Phillips right.

.

That's absolute selective out of context nonsense. You've ignored my earlier explanations. I'm all for intelligence led, targeted search. 

The problem, as in your solution is the non intelligence led stop and search. Put yourself in the shoes of an average carnival goer your 16-30yo, law abiding and male. The police stop and search you simply because your a young black male, I don't know about you but that would **** me off and it must make them feel they don't belong to society. In the long run, it's part of the cause of these problems. 

18 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

Big signs, for your safety EVERYONE is walking through the metal detectors,  please have a safe and enjoyable time, anyone not willing to go through them will be turned away. 

I couldn't care less about people being offended by targeted stop and search, I'm pretty sure that getting stabbed will hurt more than their feelings

That's a different thing entirely and is condition of entry searching, which I'd be all for, but it'd be almost impossible to implement in a street carnival the size of the Notting Hill one. With participants likely to set up unofficiated partying outside the perimeter. 

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Rough breakdown of numbers, age, sex and ethnicity.

Magic window is 16-30, male and non white.

The numbers are do-able. Not everyone would have to get searched; there will be a tipping point of effectiveness and in all likelihood requiring less than 51% of the target demographic being searched.

Deploy police and heavily focus on the target demographic - once word gets out that there’s a better than average change of getting stopped and searched then those that follow won’t bother to attend / bring a knife.

I don’t know where to start but perhaps you could clarify to what extent of black fits your target demographic?

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

Failing that, if there was prolonged targeted stop and search in place prior to the event taking place then there’s also an increased chance of those concerned being either picked up or prior dissuaded from carrying.

Let’s give it a go eh? Got to be better than doing nothing or the yoof club route.

Ah but you won’t get it past the liberal hand wringers (that’s Trevor Phillips OBE words, not mine 😉)

And how confident are you it wouldn’t work?

.

What are the Police Officers not doing as a result of your proposed initiative or, if it’s incremental, who’s funding it?

I’m not in disagreement with what TP stated  but I don’t see how your “plan” flies and I presume you’re decent enough to acknowledge the points I’ve raised are in no way attributable to “liberal hand wringing”?

[Mungler]

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

That's absolute selective out of context nonsense. You've ignored my earlier explanations. I'm all for intelligence led, targeted search. 

The problem, as in your solution is the non intelligence led stop and search. Put yourself in the shoes of an average carnival goer your 16-30yo, law abiding and male. The police stop and search you simply because your a young black male, I don't know about you but that would **** me off and it must make them feel they don't belong to society. In the long run, it's part of the cause of these problems. 

That's a different thing entirely and is condition of entry searching, which I'd be all for, but it'd be almost impossible to implement in a street carnival the size of the Notting Hill one. With participants likely to set up unofficiated partying outside the perimeter. 

Intelligence lead targeted stop and search is what we have now and was mandated by Khan. How’s that working out, precisely?

’Lads, you know the score. Won’t be a jiffy. We’re doing this to protect you - you are the most at risk group. You’ll be on your way in 2 minutes. Be part of the solution or the problem - your choice really - doesn’t affect me’

Simple. But there has to be an acceptance of who is most at risk to offend and be stabbed and we have to hit rock bottom else the lefty hand wringers will want to tell everyone how offended they should be.

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

That is absolute defeatist liberal hand wringing nonsense right there.

So you’re against targeted stop and search because it’s going to upset a narrow minority who are statistically the most at risk of being stabbed / stabbing.

I’ll bet you £20 to charity right now that everyone hauled in for the carnival knife murders fits into the target demographic mentioned above - male, non white and 16-30. And what a flukey coincidence that would be - or would it be where the factual data and stats take us?

Again, I look forward to your alternative effective strategy and where no one gets upset or offended 😆

Ah, to ignore the truth and the stats to not cause offence or upset. Madness.

And boy o boy was Trevor Phillips right.

.

Beyond you clarifying your definition of non-white I don’t think anyone is contesting the target demographic, and to be honest I’m a bit confused why you keep banging on about it.

My personal strategy is to steer well clear of such events. Two people died this year but I reckon statistically you’d be safer there than trying to participate in other iconic events like the London Marathon or Ride London 😂

No offence intended just trying to put things in perspective.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

With participants likely to set up unofficiated partying outside the perimeter

Just so they could continue to have/use the knives they carry ?

Think about what you're saying, rather than have random or targeted searches , or be forced to go through a metal detector, they would rather not go to the carnival, or riot ? Sounds like the people you don't really want there anyway!

Imagine the conversation at the funerals, 'We need to stop this senseless murder of young people'...... 'Right so we need extra security measures?'...... 'NO stop being racist !'

It's funny that no one complains about airport security checks, yet statistically you're more likely to be killed at the carnival than flying, any day of the week.

[Mungler]

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I don’t know where to start but perhaps you could clarify to what extent of black fits your target demographic?

What are the Police Officers not doing as a result of your proposed initiative or, if it’s incremental, who’s funding it?

I’m not in disagreement with what TP stated  but I don’t see how your “plan” flies and I presume you’re decent enough to acknowledge the points I’ve raised are in no way attributable to “liberal hand wringing”?

Black is non white the last time I checked. 

How on earth did we afford stop and search before it became so offensive (and we stopped it and the stabbing rates went through the roof)?

It’s not going to be 24/7 - once everyone knows there’s a good chance of being stopped and searched, knife carrying will drop and an equilibrium will be established.

The same argument was for Rwanda - send the first 100 boats over, the next 100 won’t bother because they won’t want to risk a one way ticket to Rwanda. But the lefty hand wringers won that won and where are we now? Oh yes, no change and situation still untenable. 

Again, for the 4th time - another solution please?

1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

Just so they could continue to have/use the knives they carry ?

Think about what you're saying, rather than have random or targeted searches , or be forced to go through a metal detector, they would rather not go to the carnival, or riot ? Sounds like the people you don't really want there anyway!

Imagine the conversation at the funerals, 'We need to stop this senseless murder of young people'...... 'Right so we need extra security measures?'...... 'NO stop being racist !'

It's funny that no one complains about airport security checks, yet statistically you're more likely to be killed at the carnival than flying, any day of the week.

Good post.

Given heightened airport security and the reasonable prospect of detection, how many people try to beat airport security with guns and bombs? The system and the threat of detection takes over and does the heavy lifting with strong deterrent.

Do I mind being stopped and searched at an airport? Not at all and I ping the scanner every time I go through it because the scanner thinks there’s 2 people trying to sneak through. Do I consider the machine and staff fattist? No, couldn’t give a monkeys. Offence cannot be given, it can only be taken.

.

Edited August 31 by Mungler

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Black is non white the last time I checked. 

I wish I’d asked this question earlier, would have saved me wasting so much time. You clearly haven’t got a scooby what you’re talking about here and that reply is ultimate proof.

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

How on earth did we afford stop and search before it became so offensive (and we stopped it and the stabbing rates went through the roof)?

It’s not going to be 24/7 - once everyone knows there’s a good chance of being stopped and searched, knife carrying will drop and an equilibrium will be established.

The same argument was for Rwanda - send the first 100 boats over, the next 100 won’t bother because they won’t want to risk a one way ticket to Rwanda. But the lefty hand wringers won that won and where are we now? Oh yes, no change and situation still untenable. 

Again, for the 4th time - another solution please?

Rwanda is a great example of another ill thought out “strategy”. 

There’s no “another” solution to discuss since you haven’t put forward a credible initial one.

Constant reference to lefty hand wringers is getting really monotonous.

[12gauge82]

58 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Intelligence lead targeted stop and search is what we have now and was mandated by Khan. How’s that working out, precisely?

’Lads, you know the score. Won’t be a jiffy. We’re doing this to protect you - you are the most at risk group. You’ll be on your way in 2 minutes. Be part of the solution or the problem - your choice really - doesn’t affect me’

Simple. But there has to be an acceptance of who is most at risk to offend and be stabbed and we have to hit rock bottom else the lefty hand wringers will want to tell everyone how offended they should be.

What your failing to grasp is the one thing that will causes issues with humans quicker than anything, is a sense of injustice and if people are being stop searched for nothing more than being a young black man, apart from it being completely unjust, it will store future problems up. While the hard of thinking scratch their heads and simply pour more blame on a group of people for criminal acts. 

As I said earlier, it's a highly complex issue and one of the reasons I'm against mass uncontrolled migration, humans are tribal and any influx of groups of people who don't integrate will lead to future problems. 

40 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Constant reference to lefty hand wringers is getting really monotonous.

It's also laughable. I was massively in favour of Brexit and voted Reform at the last election. 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Black is non white the last time I checked. 

How on earth did we afford stop and search before it became so offensive (and we stopped it and the stabbing rates went through the roof)?

It’s not going to be 24/7 - once everyone knows there’s a good chance of being stopped and searched, knife carrying will drop and an equilibrium will be established.

The same argument was for Rwanda - send the first 100 boats over, the next 100 won’t bother because they won’t want to risk a one way ticket to Rwanda. But the lefty hand wringers won that won and where are we now? Oh yes, no change and situation still untenable. 

Again, for the 4th time - another solution please?

Good post.

Given heightened airport security and the reasonable prospect of detection, how many people try to beat airport security with guns and bombs? The system and the threat of detection takes over and does the heavy lifting with strong deterrent.

Do I mind being stopped and searched at an airport? Not at all and I ping the scanner every time I go through it because the scanner thinks there’s 2 people trying to sneak through. Do I consider the machine and staff fattist? No, couldn’t give a monkeys. Offence cannot be given, it can only be taken.

.

Your airport analogy is a great example of why blanket stop and search wouldn't achieve it's objective. Do you read the news, notice criminals have no problem getting illegal firearms into the UK? Block one route and another one will open up. I've already explained how that would apply to the carnival, but the same as you have been with my other posts, your selective in cherry picking bits of posts that suit your narrative. To be honest it surprises me, your usually logical with your posts on here, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet and are hell bent at pushing your view, despite the evidence stacking up to counter them. 

[Raja Clavata]

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

As I said earlier, it's a highly complex issue and one of the reasons I'm against mass uncontrolled migration, humans are tribal and any influx of groups of people who don't integrate will lead to future problems. 

I didn’t mention it earlier in the thread but the Ugandan Indian example raised previously was selective sampling. But I guarantee that every single black Kenyan I’ve ever interacted with (and I’ve interacted with many across their tribal spectrum), would, given the chance to settle here, do exactly as the Ugandan Indians have and pretty much for exactly the same reasons. This suggests to me that pigmentation of skin alone is not a direct cause of UK knife crime.

22 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

It's also laughable. I was massively in favour of Brexit and voted Reform at the last election. 

Quite. And I voted Tory last time. I genuinely don’t believe that differing views on this topic align as conveniently with left vs right as some would suggest. Blaming anything and everything you don’t like or agree with on left, wet, woke, liberal or whatever else is at best lazy and at worst, well…

[12gauge82]

33 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I didn’t mention it earlier in the thread but the Ugandan Indian example raised previously was selective sampling. But I guarantee that every single black Kenyan I’ve ever interacted with (and I’ve interacted with many across their tribal spectrum), would, given the chance to settle here, do exactly as the Ugandan Indians have and pretty much for exactly the same reasons. This suggests to me that pigmentation of skin alone is not a direct cause of UK knife crime.

Quite. And I voted Tory last time. I genuinely don’t believe that differing views on this topic align as conveniently with left vs right as some would suggest. Blaming anything and everything you don’t like or agree with on left, wet, woke, liberal or whatever else is at best lazy and at worst, well…

Absolutely. 

Your point on left v right also, I swear left v right has been set up to keep people divided and stop the real issues being highlighted. 

[B686]

It shouldn’t matter wether you are 16 60 white black light brown yellow blue green if you are stopped and searched it shouldn’t bother you if you have nothing to hide no bad intentions and are a law obiding citizen. Because they are just doing their job and trying to keep people safe. 

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolutely. 

Your point on left v right also, I swear left v right has been set up to keep people divided and stop the real issues being highlighted. 

This. Sound bite simplistic politics. 

1 minute ago, B686 said:

It shouldn’t matter wether you are 16 60 white black light brown yellow blue green if you are stopped and searched it shouldn’t bother you if you have nothing to hide no bad intentions and are a law obiding citizen. Because they are just doing their job and trying to keep people safe. 

But it can't be just targeted at one group as this will (as @12gauge82 suggests) simply alienate and cause more problems. 

[Raja Clavata]

21 minutes ago, B686 said:

It shouldn’t matter wether you are 16 60 white black light brown yellow blue green if you are stopped and searched it shouldn’t bother you if you have nothing to hide no bad intentions and are a law obiding citizen. Because they are just doing their job and trying to keep people safe. 

12gauge82 has already said it and Oowee just pointed it out too.

Fortunately, I don’t know or associate with any people involved in knife crime but I can give an example of how “random” targeted scrutiny pans out in other walks of life. I have a French colleague who’s originally from Tunisia, every time I’ve flown to the US with him he’s been pulled or called for additional security checks on a random basis, of course the fact that the first part of his name is Oussama Ben has nothing to do with these checks, pure coincidence, every time. I admire how composed he is about it all but he’s clearly become resigned to it.
Correction: the full first part of his name is Dr. Oussama Ben.

[Weihrauch17]

Not a single word of condemnation from 2TK or the horror that is Khan on the 2 murders, 350 arrests and 50 Police injured.  2TK is more like Ten Tier Kier, what a horror show he has proven to be. 

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your airport analogy is a great example of why blanket stop and search wouldn't achieve it's objective. Do you read the news, notice criminals have no problem getting illegal firearms into the UK? Block one route and another one will open up. I've already explained how that would apply to the carnival, but the same as you have been with my other posts, your selective in cherry picking bits of posts that suit your narrative. To be honest it surprises me, your usually logical with your posts on here, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet and are hell bent at pushing your view, despite the evidence stacking up to counter them. 

You’ve missed the point. The primary purpose of airport security is there to guard airports and air a travel, particularly so after 9-11. Post 9-11 it has been effective. It is not there to stop guns entering the country albeit it does for that route.

Stop and search is there to stop the most prolific and at risk demographic (non white males 16-30) from carrying knives on the streets and stabbing other non white males in the 16-30 demographic because it is that demographic which is the most prevalent/ at risk.

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

What your failing to grasp is the one thing that will causes issues with humans quicker than anything, is a sense of injustice and if people are being stop searched for nothing more than being a young black man, apart from it being completely unjust, it will store future problems up. While the hard of thinking scratch their heads and simply pour more blame on a group of people for criminal acts. 

As I said earlier, it's a highly complex issue and one of the reasons I'm against mass uncontrolled migration, humans are tribal and any influx of groups of people who don't integrate will lead to future problems. 

It's also laughable. I was massively in favour of Brexit and voted Reform at the last election. 

Trevor Phillips, again. 

Either target the problem and stop a few people who will feel the injustice of being stopped and searched or don’t and we get more of the same. 

For the 5th time of asking - what’s the better alternative?

[Mungler]

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I wish I’d asked this question earlier, would have saved me wasting so much time. You clearly haven’t got a scooby what you’re talking about here and that reply is ultimate proof.

Rwanda is a great example of another ill thought out “strategy”. 

There’s no “another” solution to discuss since you haven’t put forward a credible initial one.

Constant reference to lefty hand wringers is getting really monotonous.

The Nottinghill demographic survey breaks down male / female / age range and white British and non white British. 

Again, the stats are clear and there’s zero point to stopping and searching my mum.

From YouGov

Knife crime affects young ethnic minority Britons in particular, with the number knowing a victim rising to over one in four (28%) of those aged 18-24. This is double the number of white Britons of the same age (15%).

No one tried Rwanda to see if would work, and it was scrapped with no Plan B.

 

Edited August 31 by Mungler

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

But it can't be just targeted at one group as this will (as @12gauge82 suggests) simply alienate and cause more problems. 

If it stops knife crime then why not?

Or rather do we let knife crime continue to disproportionately affect a particular at risk demographic for fear of upsetting that demographic?

Doesn’t bother me - there’s a solution available and the reason it’s not pursued is for fear of alienating the statistically most probably / at risk demographic albeit the truth of targeting that demographic is in the statistical evidence as upsetting as they may find that truth.

Mark my words, there will be no getting on top of knife crime without targeted stop and search as offensive as that may be. Indeed, until that demographic and the liberal hand wringers get to grips with that Hobson’s choice the stabbings will continue.

As for alternatives - well I’m not seeing any and there’s no suggestions here, just word soup about complex and cultural issues. 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, B686 said:

It shouldn’t matter wether you are 16 60 white black light brown yellow blue green if you are stopped and searched it shouldn’t bother you if you have nothing to hide no bad intentions and are a law obiding citizen. Because they are just doing their job and trying to keep people safe. 

If your happy to live in a police state where no evidence is required to search you, your car, your house, your wife or your children, I find it a little odd personally. Where's the line? A camera in your house, your bedroom, unfettered access to your communications? I know it sounds hysterical, but without rights it's a slippery slope to dictatorship. 

[12gauge82]

30 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You’ve missed the point. The primary purpose of airport security is there to guard airports and air a travel, particularly so after 9-11. Post 9-11 it has been effective. It is not there to stop guns entering the country albeit it does for that route.

Stop and search is there to stop the most prolific and at risk demographic (non white males 16-30) from carrying knives on the streets and stabbing other non white males in the 16-30 demographic because it is that demographic which is the most prevalent/ at risk.

I think you've missed the point, what your calling for is the demolition of the basic principles of policing at this country core for centuries. Imo the police is already done enough damage to itself with non crime hate monitoring and reporting and aparant 2 tier policing without literal racial profiling and stop search without intelligence. 

21 minutes ago, Mungler said:

The Nottinghill demographic survey breaks down male / female / age range and white British and non white British. 

Again, the stats are clear and there’s zero point to stopping and searching my mum.

From YouGov

Knife crime affects young ethnic minority Britons in particular, with the number knowing a victim rising to over one in four (28%) of those aged 18-24. This is double the number of white Britons of the same age (15%).

No one tried Rwanda to see if would work, and it was scrapped with no Plan B.

 

Absolutely conduct stop and search, but it must be specific intelligence led like you, I or anyone else could be subjected to and not simply because someone is young, male and black. That can only cause problems and is unjust.