The .410 – world’s smallest shotgun calibre

[London Best]

38 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Several of your posts have given your opinions that the authors have got it wrong with no further explanation. It would be handy to hear your opinions as to why this is so, detailing what is correct and the reasons for it.

I would refer you to other’s posts on this thread, particularly that of our friend enfieldspares above.

[HantsRob]

36 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

As you weren’t a shooter back in the day you wouldn’t have experienced the old 4.10 and ammunition so probably don’t realise how drastically the guns and ammunition have improved 

although I’m sure you are aware of the capabilities of the little guns 😂

I'm very aware that you are insanely good with the .410, and if anything it is amusingly shameful seeing my 12g scorecard being destroyed by you shooting with a .410! That was such a wonderful experience, and I always enjoy learning from you and having my butt handed to me on a plate on the scorecard!

I look forward to having a chance for a re-play with you and your cohort of usual suspects again! 

36 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

What is not wanted being told to MPs is nonsense being said about the .410" cartridge's unsuitability "for shooting moving, aerial targets".

+1

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

It would be handy to hear your opinions as to why this is so, detailing what is correct and the reasons for it.

Agreed!

1 hour ago, London Best said:

Bill’s article stated a lot of things I have heard before over many years, but which are just so wrong.

In fairness and complementing Wymberley's comment, it is only challenging old wives tales and beliefs with truth that will drive forward with change.

It's probably why I have enjoyed this thread more than the article, as it shows so much knowledge from personal experience rather than what they've learned.

[enfieldspares]

Maybe someone should have told Bill Harriman that Eley Fourlong do now come loaded with shot sizes other than English #5?

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

Maybe someone should have told Bill Harriman that Eley Fourlong do now come loaded with shot sizes other than English #5?

Maybe you should contact Bill yourself and stop the repeated silly sniping and fauxrage? It's been an interesting thread reading about forum members' various experiences of shooting with a .410. 

[Ultrastu]

Just for context  I shoot plenty of pigeons and crows over the summer months  ,and I'm usually pretty happy with a 2:1 ratio of spent cartridges to dead birds  .sometimes I don't quite reach that (if I'm shooting below par .) Sometimes I'm a bit better than 2:1 .this is with my .410s and my 12 b and 20 b 

Last weekend I had  my .410 and shot 36 birds for 52 cartridges . That's around 3:2 ratio .which is very good in my opinion  . And proves the humble .410 is very capable of quarry on the wing . I guess it's like any gun .it's know your and its limits and shoot within them and your success rate will sore .

I too enjoy a thread like this and love the experience   and information  given by experienced shooters .

I have to admit to not shooting 12 b that  much  and as such  feel less qualified  as I do on the .410 which I shoot for 75 % of the time .I  currently own 2  and have had 4 others in the past .

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Maybe you should contact Bill yourself and stop the repeated silly sniping and fauxrage? It's been an interesting thread reading about forum members' various experiences of shooting with a .410. 

It has indeed been interesting any chance of letting us know why the Basc world 4.10 championship is based on a 50 bird course as opposed to the British 4.10 open 100 bird course (over 150 entries) i like many don’t like to give up a day for a mere 50 targets 

[Old farrier]

3 hours ago, HantsRob said:

I'm very aware that you are insanely good with the .410, and if anything it is amusingly shameful seeing my 12g scorecard being destroyed by you shooting with a .410! That was such a wonderful experience, and I always enjoy learning from you and having my butt handed to me on a plate on the scorecard!

I look forward to having a chance for a re-play with you and your cohort of usual suspects again! 

+1

Agreed!

In fairness and complementing Wymberley's comment, it is only challenging old wives tales and beliefs with truth that will drive forward with change.

It's probably why I have enjoyed this thread more than the article, as it shows so much knowledge from personal experience rather than what they've learned.

To be fair when we went you knew you couldn’t shoot your gun (fit) I knew I could shoot the 4.10 and wanted my rattly old 12 setup to match it so I could use it a little better 😂😂😂

hopefully your score is up a little since the magic wand was waved 😊😊

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Old farrier said:

To be fair when we went you knew you couldn’t shoot your gun (fit) I knew I could shoot the 4.10 and wanted my rattly old 12 setup to match it so I could use it a little better 😂😂😂

hopefully your score is up a little since the magic wand was waved 😊😊

We can ONLY hope.    

[Old farrier]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

We can ONLY hope.    

He tries hard and is a  new shooter so a little bit of help and encouragement goes a long way hopefully 😊😊

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Yes, we shot at Sporting Targets a while ago.

[HantsRob]

33 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

To be fair when we went you knew you couldn’t shoot your gun (fit) I knew I could shoot the 4.10 and wanted my rattly old 12 setup to match it so I could use it a little better 😂😂😂

hopefully your score is up a little since the magic wand was waved 😊😊

It was significantly better throughout the year, then I had an incident and injury that was significant, so I have barely shot this year. However, the score is recovering back up nicely, thankyou!

20 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Yes, we shot at Sporting Targets a while ago.

Must do it again next year, if you can tollerate me

[TIGHTCHOKE]

9 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

It was significantly better throughout the year, then I had an incident and injury that was significant, so I have barely shot this year. However, the score is recovering back up nicely, thankyou!

Must do it again next year, if you can tollerate me

Let me know when you are up here again, I shall be there for a 100 Reg ESP on Sunday.

I'm working at Wabbitboshers Charity Shoot at Kibworth SG tomorrow.

[enfieldspares]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

It's been an interesting thread reading about forum members' various experiences of shooting with a .410. 

And clearly from what he had written that experience is a great deal wider than Bill Harriman's. And no I will not now be suggesting to my MP that he visit your presentation at the Party Conference....that as a direct result of the first sentence of your response I've just quoted.

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

And clearly from what he had written that experience is a great deal wider than Bill Harriman's. And no I will not now be suggesting to my MP that he visit your presentation at the Party Conference....that as a direct result of the first sentence of your response I've just quoted.

So are you going to contact Bill directly or not? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

It has indeed been interesting any chance of letting us know why the Basc world 4.10 championship is based on a 50 bird course as opposed to the British 4.10 open 100 bird course (over 150 entries) i like many don’t like to give up a day for a mere 50 targets 

I don't know. I think it's been a 50-bird course for many years. I will ask why. This year's event is on 6 October near Wrexham. 

https://events.basc.org.uk/events/basc-410-world-championships-2024/

 

[enfieldspares]

25 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

So are you going to contact Bill directly or not? 

I am sure that Bill has better things to do than respond to comments from myself. And I would not seek to waste his time in expecting him to either read or reply to such a communication. 

The point about Eley Fourlong and English #5 is clearly misunderstood. But those of us of a certain age and therefore the same "vintage" as BH will remember that it was the only "flavour" on the menu in most gunshops and responsible for the .410" gaining a poor reputation. 

So as I have said with the new excellent and shooting industry award winning Eley Trap .410" in English #7 1/2 those of a certain age need to look not at how the .410" performed with the then available cartridges - roll turnover closed Eley Fourlong English #5 - in their youth but how it performs now with today's loadings. 

Bill would have better begun the passage about it's suitability "for shooting moving, aerial targets" with the words "Back in my early years....". With which few including myself would not have disagreed.

Edited September 13, 2024 by enfieldspares

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

I am sure that Bill has better things to do than respond to comments from myself. And I would not seek to waste his time in expecting him to either read or reply to such a communication. 

The point about Eley Fourlong and English #5 is clearly misunderstood. But those of us of a certain age and therefore the same "vintage" as BH will remember that it was the only "flavour" on the menu in most gunshops and responsible for the .410" gaining a poor reputation. 

So as I have said with the new excellent and shooting industry award winning Eley Trap .410" in English #7 1/2 those of a certain age need to look not at how the .410" performed with the then available cartridges in their youth but how it performs now with today's loadings. 

Bill would have better begun the passage about it's suitability "for shooting moving, aerial targets" with the words "Back in my early years....". With which few including myself would not have disagreed.

Please contact Bill directly with all your feedback given that you know him for many years.

[HantsRob]

20 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Please contact Bill directly with all your feedback given that you know him for many years.

To be fair, it would be easier for Bill to read all the comments here, rather than several posters all emailing him.

Back on topic, I've only shot 2 410 guns, one belonging to OF and another owning to a guy who works at TGS. Both have proved I do not have the skill to use it effectively, and it is also not a calibre that fills me full of happy. 

I wonder how much of it is a sense of nostalgia for many who were fortunate to shoot from a young age, Vs it actually being fun?

[Old farrier]

47 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

To be fair, it would be easier for Bill to read all the comments here, rather than several posters all emailing him.

Back on topic, I've only shot 2 410 guns, one belonging to OF and another owning to a guy who works at TGS. Both have proved I do not have the skill to use it effectively, and it is also not a calibre that fills me full of happy. 

I wonder how much of it is a sense of nostalgia for many who were fortunate to shoot from a young age, Vs it actually being fun?

The difference between a 12 and a 4.10 

if you miss with a 12 you’re unhappy 

If you hit with a 4.10 your ecstatic😊😊 

the 4.10 is a different gun today than the guns of my youth and the cartridges are vastly superior 

 

Edited September 14, 2024 by Old farrier

[Fellside]

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

the 4.10 is a different gun today than the guns of my youth and the cartridges are vastly superior 

So true. I remember as a boy using a bolt action Webley with a full fixed choke and 9 grams of 6s. You had to be so close to the blumin rabbit, that a brick would have been just as effective! 
Fast forward to the modern O/U multichoke and well balanced 18 gram 7 1/2, or UK 7s if you want them……a massive improvement! I must have been very keen (or hungry) when I was a boy to progress through my 410 phase and still want to shoot. 

[TOPGUN749]

A 2 inch 9 gram cartridge compared to an 18 gram 3 inch magnum is like comparing a 21 gram 12 bore to a 42 g gram magnum 12 bore.

Naturally adding 100% more pellets in a .410 can increase its effective range from 20 yards to 35 yards with a maximum choke.The velocity of many.410 loads is lower than 12 bore by 200fps.

[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, TOPGUN749 said:

A 2 inch 9 gram cartridge compared to an 18 gram 3 inch magnum is like comparing a 21 gram 12 bore to a 42 g gram magnum 12 bore.

Naturally adding 100% more pellets in a .410 can increase its effective range from 20 yards to 35 yards with a maximum choke.The velocity of many.410 loads is lower than 12 bore by 200fps.

Well almost however many of the load’s weren’t available back in the day and mr Harriman doesn't appear to be aware of the improvements in gun and cartridges in the 4.10 range 

would have been a far better article had he written about the past and how the bore had progressed in his lifetime to what it is now 

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, TOPGUN749 said:

A 2 inch 9 gram cartridge compared to an 18 gram 3 inch magnum is like comparing a 21 gram 12 bore to a 42 g gram magnum 12 bore.

Naturally adding 100% more pellets in a .410 can increase its effective range from 20 yards to 35 yards with a maximum choke.The velocity of many.410 loads is lower than 12 bore by 200fps.

Yes this is technically true. However there’s more to it than that - a range of various improvements. The modern 410 is much more of a ‘hitter’ than it once was. I think that’s part of the reason for its recent popularity. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 hours ago, Fellside said:

Yes this is technically true. However there’s more to it than that - a range of various improvements. The modern 410 is much more of a ‘hitter’ than it once was. I think that’s part of the reason for its recent popularity. 

And the BIGGEST improvement to .410" shooting was taking away all the FULL choked guns and going to multi-choke so people could open the muzzle and utilise the guns true potential.

[London Best]

As a long time .410 fan I think the biggest improvement is the common availability of cartridges loaded with smaller shot. 
When it was No.5 or No.5 the .410 was useless except at very close ranges. 
Being able to buy 7’s was a total revelation of the .410’s capabilities.