Steel 7.5

[Scott..]

Morning all, 7.5 28g steel. Is this man enough for pigeons. I’m currently using 4 32g steel, but the 7.5 are half the price. 
Is there and pros and cons to going for the lighter smaller load. 
They must be steel as I feed the pigeons to my birds. 
Thank you in advance. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

If the birds are decoying well and they are in range it has got to be worth a try, I use lead 7 1/2s through a bit of choke.

Can you get hold of a few and set up somewhere to field test them?

[Ultrastu]

I think a steel 7.5 is  2.55 mm as opposed to a lead 7.5 at 2.3 mm 

I watched a vid last week with a guy shooting 24 grm no 7.5 steel and he loved it on the pigeons .he also tried  no 5  and no 3  steel  and preferred the smaller pellets .

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I have yet to try Steel Cartridges yet but I cannot see any reason why 7.5 28g would not work as many use 7.5 28g lead cartridges , I just use more choke for lead but not sure on the steel ??, 32g size 4 steel seems a little OTT for pigeon decoying

1 hour ago, Ultrastu said:

I think a steel 7.5 is  2.55 mm as opposed to a lead 7.5 at 2.3 mm 

I watched a vid last week with a guy shooting 24 grm no 7.5 steel and he loved it on the pigeons .he also tried  no 5  and no 3  steel  and preferred the smaller pellets .

Hello, Any link to the Video ??

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, Try some Gamebore Super Steel 7.5s , they come in different loads, plastic or fibre but I presume the plastic not suitable for silenced shotguns ?? Just Carts have 24g 7.5s around £270 per 1000, £6.75 a box of 25

Edited September 16 by oldypigeonpopper

[oldypigeonpopper]

On 16/09/2024 at 10:05, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, Try some Gamebore Super Steel 7.5s , they come in different loads, plastic or fibre but I presume the plastic not suitable for silenced shotguns ?? Just Carts have 24g 7.5s around £270 per 1000, £6.75 a box of 25

Hello, There is no doubt that 7.5s Clay carts will kill Pigeon at a reasonable range and you can save money

[Cawdor118]

On 16/09/2024 at 09:17, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, I have yet to try Steel Cartridges yet but I cannot see any reason why 7.5 28g would not work as many use 7.5 28g lead cartridges , I just use more choke for lead but not sure on the steel ??, 32g size 4 steel seems a little OTT for pigeon decoying

Hello, Any link to the Video ??

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, Thanks for posting, The birds all seem so far away in Videos🤔

[Sweet11-87]

idk  7.5 steel.... thats like a lead 9 or smaller and lowering your payload weight aswell.  yeah anything out of a 12b will kill i guess but talk about removing the margin for error. Unless they are decoying perfectly and you're on your best day you're simply decreasing your lethality,  and id be suprised if you didnt see allot more cripples and pricked birds unless you alter your range and approach.  allot of people use clay carts on pigeons but they are more akin to a steel 5.

 

 

 

 

[situndertree]

There is a lot of talk about using shot sizes twice up on the shot scale when switching to steel.

So if one uses a 7 in lead then a 5 in steel.

However a 5 in steel is really equivalent in diameter to a 4 in lead.

( i am shooting from the hip with this comment from memory which may or may not be correct)

This is because steel sizing is a larger diameter than the equivalent lead for the same "number" shot size.

Should we really be saying to go up just 1 shot size due to this?

So really if say a 7 in lead then go for 6 in steel which is i think 2 sizes up in terms of diameter.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, interesting thread, Is there any difference of size between 7.5s steel and 7.5s lead ??

[Cawdor118]

2 hours ago, situndertree said:

There is a lot of talk about using shot sizes twice up on the shot scale when switching to steel.

So if one uses a 7 in lead then a 5 in steel.

However a 5 in steel is really equivalent in diameter to a 4 in lead.

( i am shooting from the hip with this comment from memory which may or may not be correct)

This is because steel sizing is a larger diameter than the equivalent lead for the same "number" shot size.

Should we really be saying to go up just 1 shot size due to this?

So really if say a 7 in lead then go for 6 in steel which is i think 2 sizes up in terms of diameter.

Most clay shooting 7s are marked as 2.5mm steel. So, the equivalent size to a 6.5 lead. 

[situndertree]

Of some older ( nearly 20 years) steel cartridges i have, some were sized in the "steel" sizing whereas some were "lead" sized such that for a "numbered" shot size they werent the same.

Both had a shot diameter marked as well as the size number.

The Hull brand pellets were a diameter up than the Lyalvale pellet but both were number 4's.

 

 

 

[situndertree]

Kent wildfowlers website has a shotgun ballistics calculator.

This is quite useful for both lead and steel and other shot materials.

Pellet energy at different ranges and pattern related and different quarry species and number of pellet strikes required.

A useful tool to play around with theoretical parameters when trying to gauge whether a cartridge and gun combination is suitable for a quarry species and to what range distance.

[wymberley]

On 20/09/2024 at 17:32, situndertree said:

Should we really be saying to go up just 1 shot size due to this?

It depends on what you're trying to do. If you want to match the performance of lead you would have originally had to have gone up 3 shot sizes. Not looking good, is it? OK, physically make steel one size larger than lead for the same shot number which makes going up just 2 sizes seem more favourable. This means the answer to your question is, no.

However, it's not always necessary to match lead as frequently in the terms of energy we're over-gunned - enough is enough - simply because we've lost the pattern before the energy requirement.

Like all things shotgun, performance theory is based on averages so the only way to be certain for our particular set up is to get out there and suck it and see. But there's no harm in using the theory to save time and money by putting us in the ballpark -  even if not quite the centre spot. A better indicator of pellet performance than simply energy alone is by using its energy density. We're all familiar with striking (or 'impact') energy, but for this purpose we need to take into account 'threshold energy' - that required to punch through fur/feather and for pigeon we can call this c0.25. Deducting this from the impact energy we have the 'lethal energy'. If we now take the pellet's diameter squared and divide the lethal energy by this figure we have the 'energy density'.

Edited September 25 by wymberley

[situndertree]

Wymberley thats very interesting.

Another downside to steel is the increased recoil for a like for like weight payload due to putting more energy into the pellets via velocity to counter the lighter pellet weight.

The kick being proportional to the square of velocity for the same payload.

The trouble is that for smaller pellets as well as the increased kick it is a law of diminishing returns with only a very small increase in achievable range or target energy delivery. The pattern could be worsened also.

So i suppose the argument that larger pellets for a given payload and a more moderate velocity hence not quite as worse kick with the pellets still having enough of what it takes to penetrate or have the required knockdown power at the furthest reasonable range. Thus not always to strive for the highest velocity cartridges.

Really if steel pellets on the smaller side are used ( good pattern density) then it will be advantageous to limit the range that quarry is fired at and in that case a more normal " not so fast" muzzle velocity should be fine.

Another problem is that many shooters ( myself included) inadvertently take shots that are far too long for the pattern/pellet energy available at that range.

It is a sobering practice when out for a walk without a gun to look at that pigeon that flies past and think would i have taken a shot and then paced out to the landmark it flew over. The standard typical ranges where pattern/ energy runs out (say 45yds) isnt far ( barring the large pellet lucky hit at longer ranges).

Quite often i pace out 60yds and the pigeon looked very large and in range as it crossed.

Obviously out of normal shooting range but how many shooters would have fired the shot?

 

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, Did you try any 7.5 28g steel shot carts Scott ??

[wymberley]

16 hours ago, situndertree said:

It is a sobering practice when out for a walk without a gun to look at that pigeon that flies past and think would i have taken a shot and then paced out to the landmark it flew over. The standard typical ranges where pattern/ energy runs out (say 45yds) isnt far ( barring the large pellet lucky hit at longer ranges).

If of any interest; for lead 7&1/2s at 1400 at the muzzle:

35 yards, 1 ftlb and an Energy Density (ED) of 92.6.

For steel 7&1/2s at the top end of the CIP velocity and the Gamebore given diameter with Hull pellet count (these two could well be anybody's guess):

35 yards, 0.73 ftlbs and ED of 49.9

Equal energy at 27 yards with an ED of 88.5

Equal ED at 23 yards.

 

[old'un]

On 16/09/2024 at 03:31, Scott.. said:

Morning all, 7.5 28g steel. Is this man enough for pigeons. I’m currently using 4 32g steel, but the 7.5 are half the price. 
Is there and pros and cons to going for the lighter smaller load. 
They must be steel as I feed the pigeons to my birds. 
Thank you in advance. 

think this might help answer your question...https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/451530-flighting/

[motty]

Ant Poolman very often uses 7.5 steel on pigeons. Being as he is one of the top pigeon shots in the country, I would imagine he wouldn’t use them if they didn’t produce the goods.