Latest from Wild Justice re lead shot

[PeterHenry]

Link below, and copy of their letter attached.

https://wildjustice.org.uk/lead-ammunition/our-letter-to-defra-about-lead-ammunition/

Quite interesting that those makeing the recommendations / sugested time scales didn't take this into account.

Letter-Leigh-Day-to-Secretary-of-State-23-12-2024-10-53_Redacted.pdf

Edited Tuesday at 00:01 by PeterHenry

[Accuspell]

That is just them trying to waste the Minister's time. I bet he never gets to see it and an undersecretary drafts the response for him to sign, amongst the other pile of stuff to sign that day. The decision has already been made, and the evidence from Scandinavia was put to the relevent bodies, telling them why they have reversed the situation over there.

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, Accuspell said:

That is just them trying to waste the Minister's time. I bet he never gets to see it and an undersecretary drafts the response for him to sign, amongst the other pile of stuff to sign that day. The decision has already been made, and the evidence from Scandinavia was put to the relevent bodies, telling them why they have reversed the situation over there.

It's not them trying to waste the ministers time. It's either -

A) setting the grounds for a judicial reveiw

B) pushing at an open door

I'm not really following you regarding the bit about evidence from Scandinavia being given to appropriate bodies? When / what / how did that happen?

Edited Tuesday at 12:14 by PeterHenry

[Accuspell]

BASC reported it last week (?) or very recently anyway.

[PeterHenry]

38 minutes ago, Accuspell said:

BASC reported it last week (?) or very recently anyway.

👍

[Conor O'Gorman]

8 hours ago, Accuspell said:

BASC reported it last week (?) or very recently anyway.

Yes, there is a BASC briefing here.

https://basc.org.uk/hse-recommendations-on-lead-restriction-proposals-explained/

The decision on what to do next on the basis of the Health and Safety Executive recommendations for restrictions on the use of lead in ammunition for outdoor recreational shooting is a political one. UK Government to decide for England. Welsh Government for Wales. Scottish Government for Scotland. 

 

[udderlyoffroad]

Yes it’s a fishing expedition to which the right answer is; you can read the press release at the same time as everyone else, ie after the minister has informed parliament.

Regardless, of course WJ will seek judicial review, their raison d’etre is as a lawfare organisation. 
…
Standby for the inevitable bevy of usual suspects who are going to demand BASC share their strategy of how they will respond to that particular threat in advance & will feign outrage when Conor refuses to show BASCs hand.

[Conor O'Gorman]

What's happening is a campaign spearheaded by WWT with support from RSPB, Wildlife and Countryside Link, CHEM Trust and Wild Justice calling for 'a full and swift ban right away’ on the back of the HSE recommendations. 

https://www.wwt.org.uk/news-and-stories/news/throw-birds-a-lifeline-and-ban-toxic-lead-ammunition-wildlife-experts-urge-government

https://www.wwt.org.uk/help-make-lead-history/

Campaign video:

https://x.com/i/status/1876602109690261882

Email campaign:

https://act.wwt.org.uk/page/160992/action/1?ea.tracking.id=enp

 

Edited yesterday at 12:59 by Conor O'Gorman

[TIGHTCHOKE]

So then the government have 3 months to consider the HSE's findings and suggestions and then WWT, RSPB, Wildlife and Countryside Link, CHEM Trust and Wild Justice want it all gone in 18 months.

Surely that is not feasible?

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So then the government have 3 months to consider the HSE's findings and suggestions and then WWT, RSPB, Wildlife and Countryside Link, CHEM Trust and Wild Justice want it all gone in 18 months.

Surely that is not feasible?

3 months to consider HSE findings

As I understand it, under the post-Brexit HSE process, technically the governments for England, Wales and Scotland can choose not to respond in 3 months, or at all, but perhaps that can be legally challenged if they do not - the Leigh Day legal letter to Defra (for England) may bring clarity on that. This is a new process in the UK and there is a precedent - in June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE had proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for UK REACH at the start of 2021. Nothing has happened since on this one but perhaps that because there was no lobbying or legal prompts to move it on.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one in the queue for a restriction proposal is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams. All this mirrors similar processes in the EU and is to ensure continued trade on chemicals between UK and EU post-Brexit.

Again to highlight that this is a new process in the UK and there have been no legislative changes as yet.

WWT-led campaign for total lead ammunition ban within 18 months 

I will post an update on this in due course.

[Scully]

15 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

3 months to consider HSE findings

As I understand it, under the post-Brexit HSE process, technically the governments for England, Wales and Scotland can choose not to respond in 3 months, or at all, but perhaps that can be legally challenged if they do not - the Leigh Day legal letter to Defra (for England) may bring clarity on that. This is a new process in the UK and there is a precedent - in June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE had proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for UK REACH at the start of 2021. Nothing has happened since on this one but perhaps that because there was no lobbying or legal prompts to move it on.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one in the queue for a restriction proposal is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams. All this mirrors similar processes in the EU and is to ensure continued trade on chemicals between UK and EU post-Brexit.

Again to highlight that this is a new process in the UK and there have been no legislative changes as yet.

WWT-led campaign for total lead ammunition ban within 18 months 

I will post an update on this in due course.

‘WWT- led campaign for TOTAL  lead ammunition ban…..’ ? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

‘WWT- led campaign for TOTAL  lead ammunition ban…..’ ? 

Yep.

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Yep.

Shifty still involved on their part? 

[Conor O'Gorman]

7 minutes ago, Scully said:

Shifty still involved on their part? 

Forum grandstanding aside, I would bet that if you met him on the street you would be nothing else than charming, as the gentleman that you are, appreciative of his input to BASC and shooting over many decades.

[Scully]

6 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Forum grandstanding aside, I would bet that if you met him on the street you would be nothing else than charming, as the gentleman that you are, appreciative of his input to BASC and shooting over many decades.

I have met him and I wasn’t, because unsurprisingly he too couldn’t give a straight answer.
Philip Bucknell was quite charming, but then again he had a book to sell, and a very good book it is. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

3 months to consider HSE findings

As I understand it, under the post-Brexit HSE process, technically the governments for England, Wales and Scotland can choose not to respond in 3 months, or at all, but perhaps that can be legally challenged if they do not - the Leigh Day legal letter to Defra (for England) may bring clarity on that. This is a new process in the UK and there is a precedent - in June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE had proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for UK REACH at the start of 2021. Nothing has happened since on this one but perhaps that because there was no lobbying or legal prompts to move it on.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one in the queue for a restriction proposal is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams. All this mirrors similar processes in the EU and is to ensure continued trade on chemicals between UK and EU post-Brexit.

Again to highlight that this is a new process in the UK and there have been no legislative changes as yet.

WWT-led campaign for total lead ammunition ban within 18 months 

I will post an update on this in due course.

Thank you for that Conor, we will see what this leads to, but other than an even quicker demise to our shooting we are struggling somewhat.

[kevin55]

13 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

3 months to consider HSE findings

As I understand it, under the post-Brexit HSE process, technically the governments for England, Wales and Scotland can choose not to respond in 3 months, or at all, but perhaps that can be legally challenged if they do not - the Leigh Day legal letter to Defra (for England) may bring clarity on that. This is a new process in the UK and there is a precedent - in June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE had proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for UK REACH at the start of 2021. Nothing has happened since on this one but perhaps that because there was no lobbying or legal prompts to move it on.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one in the queue for a restriction proposal is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams. All this mirrors similar processes in the EU and is to ensure continued trade on chemicals between UK and EU post-Brexit.

Again to highlight that this is a new process in the UK and there have been no legislative changes as yet.

WWT-led campaign for total lead ammunition ban within 18 months 

I will post an update on this in due course.

I'm just looking at the WWT website:

HELP MAKE LEAD HISTORY on the home page in big yellow letters with an invitation to write to the secretary of state and a blue button to 'take action'

Cats of course kill 160-270 million animals inc approx 1/4 birds per even the Guardian in 2022! Are they advocating action - No!

 

 

[grahamch]

There's been lots of mentions on various forums that 28 bores, 410s and muzzle loaders should be exempt from any lead shot ban. 

Anyone know what this represent id the number of folk involved? For example what proportion of cartridge sales are 28 bore and 410 and whats the membership of the MLAGB?

 

 

 

[Rewulf]

On 07/01/2025 at 20:42, udderlyoffroad said:

Standby for the inevitable bevy of usual suspects who are going to demand BASC share their strategy of how they will respond to that particular threat in advance & will feign outrage when Conor refuses to show BASCs hand.

I for one wont be asking for any of that, and for what its worth, I quite like Conors more 'open' attitude of recent days.
I may be pessimistic, but I believe the battle, as it is, is lost, its just about time frames.

On 08/01/2025 at 13:08, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Surely that is not feasible?

It most definitely is feasible, we have no defence against outrage.
Ask anyone who used to own a pistol.

4 hours ago, kevin55 said:

I'm just looking at the WWT website:

HELP MAKE LEAD HISTORY on the home page in big yellow letters

What they really wanted to put, was HELP MAKE SHOOTING HISTORY.

15 minutes ago, grahamch said:

There's been lots of mentions on various forums that 28 bores, 410s and muzzle loaders should be exempt from any lead shot ban. 

They are dreaming Sir.
Lead is 'toxic' and will be removed from the environment they will say, and those that oppose ANY kind of shooting, will use this line.