Shooting at the sky

[OneEye]

I keep coming across references (including in publications such as Shooting Times) to people using the .17HMR to shoot corvids in trees. I was always taught, and believed, that to fire any rifle other than an air rifle without a clear backstop is the height of irresponsibility and indeed stupidity. If I were shooting birds in a tree I'd use either a shotgun or air rifle.

 

Does anyone know, is there something about the .17HMR round that means the normal prohibition on firing up does not apply, or are there just some idiots about using them recklessly?

Edited January 6, 2008 by OneEye

[ShaggyRS6]

No idea mate. But I would not dream of firing my 17HMR into the Air without being certain of where the bullet is gonna end up if I missed. I am sure there are some cases where it is possible. But nothing like that available on any of my permissions.

 

I am interested in other replies.

[webber]

My dad taught me to shoot rifle when I was a lad. It was drummed into me that you did not shoot where you could not see, and no back stop = no shot.

 

Its that simple. I really enjoy shooting my .17HMR, but the last thing that I would consider is a shot up into a tree.

 

webber

[sandersj89]

Bonkers, nice solid backstop to keep it safe!

[dunganick]

there have been several articles ive read concerning mainly roost shooting crows or rooks with .22lr and it is a common practice, however one that as safe as it may well be i would not want to be any part of.

 

There have been a few different articles or programs that have gone into looking at what a falling bullet can do, and they all seem to decide that they will cause a nasty bruise at worst. However this is when fired directly upwards, fired at any sort of angle and the bullet will maintain its velocity much better and probably not tumble.

 

As said, if you cant see a backstop behind what your shooting at you probably shouldnt be considering it.

[ShaggyRS6]

I think i read somewhere that if you fire a bullet in the air it comes down at about 130mph or something like that. I know I would not want a pointy 17hmr round falling on my head at 130. Ouch

[hogey]

I think i read somewhere that if you fire a bullet in the air it comes down at about 130mph or something like that. I know I would not want a pointy 17hmr round falling on my head at 130. Ouch

.

 

Hi

 

I would never fire .17 HMR or .22 rifle up into the trees.I would consider anyone who did to be totally irresponsible.

 

Hogey

[njc110381]

It should be (in my opinion which isn't proven!) ok if the gun is fired up at a very steep angle so the bullet falls back to earth with gravity. there are several .22 air gun pellets that weigh more than 17 grains, which in theory should come down with more force than the HMR bullet will?

 

That said, I'm not good enough with ballistics to confirm my thoughts, so I'll stick to not shooting up like I've been taught!

In some cases a large tree trunk is a suitable backstop for squirrels, but that's about it for me.

[bobby t]

ive heard before that falling ak-47 fire in arab countries (lets face it no celebration in iraq is complete without emptying the magazine on your AK) can kill if it hits someone. apprantly what ft.lbs the american army declares as high enough to wound is less than that of a falling bullet.

[Blackbart]

The air rifle pellet will only be dropping from a relatively small distance as opposed to the .17 which will be dropping from a long,long way up

[hwr]

this is loaded with urban myth but in my book you never shoot a rifle without a backstop

 

off to find some facts to post

H

[Mungler]

Erm, I suspect that they are banking on the fact that corvids don't spend all their time in trees and have been known to fly down to the ground from where they could safely be shot with anything.

 

Shooting up into trees with an HMR is pure mentalism.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Mungler

[hwr]

Bit of a long post and it is not definative but you get the gen idea

 

 

 

Falling-bullet injuries

 

"Bullets are not greeting cards. Celebrate without firearms." from the IANSA Macedonian poster campaign, December 2005People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2–6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[4] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.

 

A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[5] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 - 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. 38 of them died.[6] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[6]

 

Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets and found that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) and larger .50 caliber bullets have a terminal velocity of 500 feet per second (150 m/s).[7] A bullet traveling at only 150 feet per second (46 m/s) to 170 feet per second (52 m/s) can penetrate human skin,[8] and at less than 200 feet per second (60 m/s), it can penetrate the skull.[9] A bullet that does not penetrate the skull may still result in an intracranial injury.[10]

 

In 2005, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) ran education campaigns on the dangers of celebratory gunfire in Serbia and Montenegro.[11] In Serbia, the campaign slogan was "every bullet that is fired up, must come down."[12]

 

 

from this link http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/comp.arch...d/msg06803.html

 

 

i copied this

 

 

 

Different bullet types behave in different ways.

A .22LR bullet reaches a maximum altitude of 1179 metres and a terminal velocity if you double m/s you roughly get kts i.e 60 x 2 = 120 kts or 138 mph

of either 60 metres per second or 43 metres per second depending upon whether

the bullet falls base first or tumbles. A .44 magnum bullet will reach an

altitude of 1377 metres and a terminal velocity of 76 metres per second falling

base first. A .30-06 bullet will reach an altitude of 3080 metres with a

terminal velocity of 99 metres per second. The total flight time for the

.22LR is between 30 and 36 seconds, while for the .30-06, it is about 58

seconds. The velocities of the bullets as they leave the rifle muzzle are

much higher than their falling velocities. A .22LR has a muzzle velocity

of 383 metres per second and the .30-06 has a muzzle velocity of 823 metres

per second.

 

According to tests undertaken by Browning at the beginning

of the century and recently by L .C. Haag, the bullet velocity required for

skin penetration is between 45 and 60 metres per second which is within the

velocity range of falling bullets. Of course, skin penetration is not required

in order to cause serious or fatal injury and any responsible person will

never fire bullets into the air in this manner.

The questioner may like

to read "Falling bullets: terminal velocities and penetration studies", by

L. C. Haag, Wound Ballistics Conference, April 1994, Sacramento, California.

 

 

David Maddison , Melbourne Australia

 

 

so they reach 3500 to 9000 feet and arrive back at 80 to 160 mph (can someone else work out the approx lb/ft for me)

 

 

Blimey! on with the tin hat!!!

Edited January 6, 2008 by hwr

[Mungler]

HWR are you PIN's brother?

[pin]

The .17HMR is a very light little round, in ballistic terms it has a very small sectional density, according to Chuck Hawkes (who knows a damn sight more than me!) it's the lowest on the market. This means it has a very low mass for it's size.

 

Working out some rough figures, and I am assuming a lot of things here like the density of the air, the ballistic coefficient of the bullet (Hornady have not released figures) but the perceived wisdom is it's about .123

 

Now, playing around with a spreadsheet I made I calculated that the terminal velocity in normal conditions, for a v-max poly tip .17HMR round, seems to be about 46mph or about 67m/s. It would take about two and a half seconds of free-fall for this to hit the ground and that works out to be about 300ft or roughly 91m. Obviously this assumes a straight up shot, otherwise it gets sodding complicated

 

At this velocity I calculate the energy to be about 0.17 ft/lb

 

Still wouldn't do it though.

Edited January 6, 2008 by pin

[codling99]

its been in the magazines about this,.22 subsonics,fired at 45 degrees,will land over a mile and a quarter away ,and land with quite a thump,cant remember exact figures but will look for them,ony time shoot up wards,if it a squirrel on a trunk,or a tree on a bank,with full view of mountain behind tree.

[rarms]

>I keep coming across references (including in publications such as Shooting Times)

>to people using the .17HMR to shoot corvids in trees

 

 

 

Shooting into trees does not necessarily mean there is no backstop. I can think of many places on land I have permission to shoot where one can shoot from the top of a valley into the bottom. If there were a tree in the bottom of the valley or on either side of it then there would be backstop behind it.

 

Just because they say they are shooting things out of trees, it does not make it unsafe in some instances.

Edited January 6, 2008 by rarms

[Paul223]

How low can you go!!, or as it is how far???

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/maxdist/maxdist.html

[lurcherboy]

It's regular practice to shoot Possums out of tree tops with a .22 in NZ.

 

Don't know how many people they have killed though

 

 

 

 

LB

[Baldrick]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned rook rifles, despite them being obsolete. Shooting birds in trees was (at one time) normal practice - yes, I know times have changed and the country is a little more populated than in the early 1900s.

 

Robin Marshall-Ball mentions in his book 'The Sporting Rifle' that using a .22RF with .22 Shorts is acceptable and common practice for roost shooting birds, as the Short only has a muzzle energy of 70 ft/lb.

[njc110381]

Regarding a post above, you have to keep in mind that they're talking about .30 or .50 cal rounds. These bullets are heavy so will hurt at low speed. The HMR is seriously light, less than half the weight of an average .22lr round and 1/10 of the weight of a .30 centrefire bullet. I find Pins comment interesting (no daft comment though, hope he's ok!), assuming the calculations are correct at 0.17 ft lbs I'd catch it in my teeth

[Evil Elvis]

You just dont do it!! I remember watching a river cottage episode where they were shooting pigeons on top of a barn and cringing wondering where the lead was going to land!!!! I also read about a fellow in a shooting mag last year that controls squirrels...up in the trees with a single shot bolt action browning.......rather him than me.

[dunganick]

your assuming here that the bullet will fall in its normal way (pointy end down) however i would hazard a guess that it will actually be tumbeling due to the lack of rotation), and have a terminal velocity that is actually quite slow.

 

Still rather you than me, but if it was get shot at or have one fall on my head i know which it would be.

 

Also given the low terminal velocity it will not take long for them to reach terminal velocity, so i wouldnt be supprised if a 17 grain airgun pellet and a 17 grain HMR bullet had a similar sort of force when coming down to earth.

 

Having said all this i would not want any form of lead landing on me, given how a fairly sizeable piece of shot can hurt, the idea of a 40grain .22lr projectile does not ammuse.

[pin]

Nick the physics I used to work out the force in my above post is sound mate

 

On the point of it tumbling when falling, it's a boat tail round which has it's centre of mass very close to the centre of pressure - the extreme speed and spin keeps it stable. When falling either from being dropped or shooting straight up I think the .17HMR (poly tip) would come back down **** first.

[Mungler]

Looky here : http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/norther...and/7092484.stm

 

73 year old farmer in Ireland shoots boy in head - .22 round falling following "rook shooting".

 

Judge McFarland said the incident was quite unique because it involved the discharge of one round during a common rural activity (shooting crows), "albeit in a grossly negligent manner".

 

He said Cleary should have known how far the bullet would have travelled and taken into account that the school playground was in his line of fire.

 

"This incident is clearly a lesson to you, and others, that the discharge of these weapons, even in the context of sport or vermin control, can have serious consequences," he said.