Do the RSPCA

[955i]

955i, enlighten me: why are you a member of this forum? Why are you hectoring people about shooting for fun?

 

Had a feeling my first reply might be from you Baldrick, psychic I guess!

 

Although it is no-ones business why I am a member of a public forum I will tell you. I am interested in shooting (and have been shooting/arching for nearly 30 years in various forms) and interested in putting food on my family's table through this medium when I can.

 

However, my main idea of sport will be clay and when I wish to hunt for food I will be intending to take no more and no other species than my family (and friends on occasion) can eat, this sits well with my morals and will not be changed by badgering from yourself or others.

 

I question the methods and reasons of some peoples hunting because it appears to go beyond what I consider sporting and useful.

 

I am not far into this sport and am asking questions as and when I see fit.

 

If my questions and opinions seem 'hectoring' to you then I apologise, but maybe you see arrows aimed at yourself when I can assure you they are not.

 

Perhaps you should realise that not everyone is here for the same reason as yourself.

[955i]

As Baldrick says, it's simply pest control. Only complete Psychopaths get pleasure from killling. Besides, you'd be doing those released urban foxes a favour by killing them. Chances are they wouldn't last paticuraly long in an rural environment anyway.

 

Oh dear, I see this going downhill

 

Bit of an assumption saying you would be doing them a favour as you cannot give any proof that this is the case and I would say that pictures of 100+ pigeons with a gun is taking a pleasure in killing so not sure what your argument is.

 

Each to their own, but I know where I stand and will not change my outlook because of pressure from certain forum members.

 

Peace

 

Chris

[Ozzy Fudd]

OK, not going in on the fox hunting front per se, I agree foxes must be taken in certain situations and I wish to state that from the outset.

 

I believe that this may be occuring due to the RSPCA (who do not know much about any animal apart from cats and dogs) if it is them releasing the foxes (and there is no proof that there is) thinking that they are letting them back into a better environment than they were in previously.

 

My main objection in this thread is the use of the word 'huggers' as I have seen in numerous other threads (and have been accused of myself).

 

As far as I can see the point of hunting is:

 

a) to scare pests off the farmers arable fields

 

b ) to put some meat on your table

 

yet I constantly see threads about foxes killed on land where there is no livestock and pictures of pigeon kills above numbers that a family could eat even if you were ****** and related to everyone.

 

To my mind this is thoughtless killing for 'fun' and not the reason that it should be done.

 

I know I am in the minority here, but a couple of hours free range shooting will scare pigeons off as much as building a small village in a field and pretending you are fighting the Viet Cong will, so why is there such an insistence on killing far more than you can use?

 

No fights please, constructive discussion welcome.

 

 

ok dealing with the 2nd one first (as its easiest) theres quite a few ways to get rid of game - local game dealer, friends and family, even feeding the dogs on rabbit for a week or two, lots more people eat game than people realise.

 

BUT...

 

the idea is not to scare animals away from the farmers fields, and thats simply because it doesnt work. myself and two friends fired off over 300 rounds one day at a farm, 12 bore and .22lr. didnt kill much as it was mostly target shooting and getting the feel of the guns again after not shooting for a couple of months. we went home for an hour, came back and there was approx 200 crows around the farm yard we'd been shooting in! the farmer had been losing a fortune every month in cattle feed to crows, magpies and pigeons,so we got stuck in. just scaring the birds doesnt work, its a short term measure - short term meaning an hour or two!

 

i admit i kinda agree with the bit about foxes, some people shoot them for no reason whatsoever, which is a shame, but what can you do. im not the best person to talk about foxes, ive never shot one, and probably wouldnt - in the last 3 years ive had to face off against a fox hunt trespassing on the land i had (the hounds were attacking our sheep, then the hunt master tried to trample me with his horse, til he realised that a shotgun beats a horse any day of the week...) and ive had guys illegally lamping foxes on our land shooting towards the house in the middle of the night and then threaten to kill me when i told them to clear off. so after stopping people hunting foxes it would be a bit hippocritical of me going after them myself

[al4x]

ok quite simply we do get some form of primitive form of hunter gatherer pleasure from killing. It is in the name of sport and it can be hard to get your head round 955 but its the way it is. We don't need to shoot we could quite happily become vegans but instead we choose to kill. Yes you can see quite large bags of birds on here which people don't need to shoot but they do so because they can. The side issue is a lot of these are pests that are feeding on crops but by no means all some of us rear and release birds to shoot yes they get eaten but the fundamental is in the sport of shooting.

Its a lovely idealism going out to shoot your tea and leaving it at that but it rarely happens.

[Baldrick]

Chris, I am not trying to persuade or dissuade you, just curious as to your motives. Your notion of 'useful' is at odds with most of the forumites' views on the subject. Big bags of birds equals challenging sport, a financial reward if the gamedealer is willing, and happy farmers. My own motives for shooting are the same as anyone who works the land or keeps livestock: protecting my bottom line. I am not ashamed at taking delight in shooting a big bag of pigeons, not trying to rid the locale of foxes.

 

I also agree with Trussman on the likely survival rate of urban foxes dumped in the wilderness. Good foraging skills do not make urban foxes good hunters.

[webber]

Chris

 

"Each to their own, but I know where I stand and will not change my outlook because of pressure from certain forum members."

 

With respect the comments expressed are not pressure, they are utterings of common sense, based on practical experience, and scientific research.

Your comment gives the impression that your mind is already set. If this is the case, why ask questions, if you are unwilling to accept the answers.

 

webber

[Trussman]

I would say that pictures of 100+ pigeons with a gun is taking a pleasure in killing so not sure what your argument is.

Chris

 

If any of us gained satisfaction from killing than surely we'd all love it if every bird we shot came down winged and we would have to ring it's neck. I don't get pleasure from killing, I get pleasure from the sport that goes with it.

[955i]

Chris, I am not trying to persuade or dissuade you, just curious as to your motives. Your notion of 'useful' is at odds with most of the forumites' views on the subject. Big bags of birds equals challenging sport, a financial reward if the gamedealer is willing, and happy farmers. My own motives for shooting are the same as anyone who works the land or keeps livestock: protecting my bottom line. I am not ashamed at taking delight in shooting a big bag of pigeons, not trying to rid the locale of foxes.

 

I also agree with Trussman on the likely survival rate of urban foxes dumped in the wilderness. Good foraging skills do not make urban foxes good hunters.

 

Excellent, then we are reaching an accord I believe.

 

My job is to ensure balance in the natural environment, and I am by no means ignorant to the ways of farming/agriculture. I am also (by neccesity) knowledgeable of environmental systems and the effect of the removal of peak predators from a food chain.

 

As said, I have no problem with removal of fox where neccessary and pest control within reason, but question some of the methods used here as suits my morals.

 

Whether I have any place on the forum remains to be seen, but I know where I stand on the hunting issues and will post my views on threads where I feel they have a place.

 

I know many on here will not agree with my way of viewing things, but does that make me a less valuable member?

 

At the ends of the day I am here to learn about all aspects of shooting regardless of my standpoint on it and I question whether I should be called into question because my ideals are different to those of other members.

[955i]

If any of us gained satisfaction from killing than surely we'd all love it if every bird we shot came down winged and we would have to ring it's neck. I don't get pleasure from killing, I get pleasure from the sport that goes with it.

 

No, because then it would be injured not killed!

 

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other.

[Ozzy Fudd]

its a strange feeling when i kill something. yes, im happy because ive hit it, buts thats because ive been a good enough shot to take it down, not the fact that ive killed something. a couple of months back i was shooting in an abandoned farm yard when i heard a chirp behind me,turned around and a big hare came hopping up to me, within 5 feet. i slung the gun over the shoulder and watched it for 5 mins before it hopped off again. half an hour later i was walking across a field when another hare jumped up in front of me 10 feet away and ran right past me. i instinctively pulled the gun to the shoulder, thumbed the safety off and tracked the hare; then i lowered the gun and put the safety back on. it was too easy a shot to take...

[Baldrick]

I know many on here will not agree with my way of viewing things, but does that make me a less valuable member?

 

Absolutely not. You and I both know that forums such as this would be deeply mundane, if it weren't for healthy discussion.

[lurcherboy]

I think it was markbivvy, although I may be wrong, that posted a thread earlier in the year about shooting several charlies that just sat when a lamp was put on them. It was assumed they were dropped off by reynard lovers

 

 

 

LB

[955i]

Absolutely not. You and I both know that forums such as this would be deeply mundane, if it weren't for healthy discussion.

 

Thanks, that makes me feel a lot better

[POW!]

I am glad this subject has been brought up , only now after midnight ,I have returned from an evening out with the 4x4 truck ,

 

Not realy to go lamping , more to deter a few who have been poaching on here , [ I wont go into detail]

 

However only today I was thinking opn similar lines , for over a half cntury now I have culled foxes here , withim 10 to 14 days the numbers are back to original , diferent foxes , BUT !!!!! If I leave off shooting foxes the same foxes remain and keep off other foxes ,

 

Q = How does this old **** know this ? A= because I walk this land al least once a day often more , just like you know who you work with I know each fox , [ NO not on first name terms divvy] ,

 

There is one dog fox here now who has over half his tail white [ never seen one yet as mich white ] anothe dog F has a limp , the third is an old boy with a grey back , [ yes they are getting bigger ]

 

The vixens are harder to spot as they do look similar , [ I put that down to being sisters ??]

they are not too teritorial yet , now they are calling and pairing up ,[ agreat time to cull a dog fox as they are braver] , I digress ,

 

I cannot verify for sure if foxes have been loosed here , but , like has been said some are unsure where to run when startled , whereas the " Known " Foxes head strait for cover ,

 

I had better not get carried away here , as Icould type all night on this subject of foxes . In some ways I see 955,s points ! , but the damage they do is as cruel as anything you can see , [ again I could fill a page on this alone] ,

 

In my teen years I regularly shot 30 to 50 , off the Combined Harvester , as we cut corn , yet still the returned , I now belive that as hunting with hounds has ceased foxes have increased , [ and my theory thats why they are bigger n older {logic} ] ,

 

Established foxes WILL move out newcommers ,. Townie foxes struggle to survive against the smart **** resident fox ,

True foxes do keep down the mice moles etc , A shoot with out a fox on it is in my opinion a poor shoot , Here Buzards clear 3 times more rabits than foxes , but dont kill chickens or turkeys , .

 

I have a soft spot for Charlie , I dont know how many I have culled , I DO however recall my FIRST fox shot at 10 years of age , A momentus occasion , saddened at the beauty of the creature !! , But I had seen the dammage only days before to our laying hens , killed for killings sake , headless! .

 

SO in conclusion , its possible , even probable that they are released , . Just like a prison offender , some reform and survive , some go back to what ythey know best !!??

 

I realy had better stop now , as it would be morning before I know it if I carry on ,

 

Again I am concious of my long posts , but a life time in the countryside and a short time on the internet leads me to belive I am NOT as dumb as I thought I was , >> DEBATE !!>

Sorry if this was boring > BUT if you want the long version >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> POW!

[Welsh Stinger]

Releasing town foxes into the country has been going on for years . Fifteen years ago a van full of town foxes from Bristol was released in the countryside near Usk in South Wales . These fox didn't know how to survive in the " wild " and after a few days the lucky ones were found in and around the farm yards and country houses where they were shot . The unlucky ones lasted a week or more and were found either dead or starving to death on the sides of the roads to weak to walk .

[Ozzy Fudd]

pow, your maybe the best to ask this as you seem very experienced with foxes! one thing ive heard, and maybe someone here can confirm or refute this, is that if you kill a fox you leave a vacuum (not a hoover, thats in the gf's hand...) which draws more foxes in, trying to take over the previous fox's territory. do you think this could be right?

[pavman]

On the land I am associated with its managed by the owners to yield maximum productivity in several ways, to include Dairy products, crops and a Game shoot and a few free range chickens. Most farmers have to diversify in any way available to make ends meet and any one/thing that helps themselves for free can be construed as taken food out of farmers mouth,,,,

 

That includes Pigeons eating crops, those not shot today will be back soon for a free lunch, Rabbits doing likewise, and Charlie whose unfortunate nature leads him to kill indiscriminately and not just to eat because if it was the case the land could cope and farmer would not object to losing the odd meat asset, by his very nature it is Charlie that rather enjoys the killing where as the likes of I for the most part do it for a very good reason!

 

We all know Charlie will kill every last game bird or hen he can when he can only it one a day, its this that brings a price on his head as he can do £100,s of damage in a night. I suspect others may take a differing view if he strolled into the front room each night and took your dinner from you or your kids…..

 

would he be nice Charlie then or would you see him for what he is?

 

 

If the likes of RSPCA are releasing them from urban settings into the wild because they have no means to do otherwise they are admitting

 

1 Foxes should not be in Towns, 2 we have no means to deal with the problem 3 they are releasing an animal into an environment they are not able to survive in…….

 

If I released my Goldfish onto my front lawn I would not expect them to survive long,,,, and I suspect the likes of the RSPCA may have a view on that

Edited December 24, 2008 by pavman

[toka_shigazu]

babbyc1000..... just in the process of reading "Running with the fox" and from the info therein and what i have heard elswhere i think the 'vacuum' effect seems to happen in all areas when you look at predators. as their young grow up they need to find their own territory, away from mummy, and so move to where the hunting is good. if a fox is gotten rid of, it was probably there cos the living was good, therefore any neighbouring wandering foxes that stumble across the now vacant patch will probably take up residency. i konw the lion killers program on the other night mentioned this factor as well to do with predators and areas. hope this answers your question....although i am certainally no expert i hope if i have got it wrong POW can explain it to me as well.....p.s. Merry XMAS to all

[Ozzy Fudd]

babbyc1000..... just in the process of reading "Running with the fox" and from the info therein and what i have heard elswhere i think the 'vacuum' effect seems to happen in all areas when you look at predators. as their young grow up they need to find their own territory, away from mummy, and so move to where the hunting is good. if a fox is gotten rid of, it was probably there cos the living was good, therefore any neighbouring wandering foxes that stumble across the now vacant patch will probably take up residency. i konw the lion killers program on the other night mentioned this factor as well to do with predators and areas. hope this answers your question....although i am certainally no expert i hope if i have got it wrong POW can explain it to me as well.....p.s. Merry XMAS to all

 

cheers mate! it was an old sheep farmer who told me that, i asked him why he never shot foxes and he said it could cause more problems than leaving one in the area, by killing the resident one you could end up with 4 or 5 more

[Masson]

I do think it's a sweeping statement to say that people who bag 100+ pigeons are doing it for the pleasure of killing.

 

If land owners want pests, be it pigeon or foxes, controlled, then people can do this any way within the law, including enjoying the sport of shooting.

 

Whether or not you agree with that is by-the-by.

[Ferret Master]

I've read Running With the Fox. Very interesting read.

 

I know of a large estate round here that leaves the foxes alone on it's borders and kills all the ones inside. The theory is that the foxes on the edge keep the others out and create a fox free zone inside however i don't know how well this actually works.

 

FM

[Blackbart]

I've read Running With the Fox. Very interesting read.

 

I know of a large estate round here that leaves the foxes alone on it's borders and kills all the ones inside. The theory is that the foxes on the edge keep the others out and create a fox free zone inside however i don't know how well this actually works.

 

FM

 

That wouldnt work as the ones on the border would move in especially if there is game birds in abundance.At this time of year dog foxes will be wandering, looking for lurrrrve and monday night was the first time this year i heard a vixen calling,unfortunatly not on my land,otherwise it would have been the ideal opportunity to wait for a dog to come to me

[POW!]

First off , I am no fox expert , [ they are far more cunning than I ] I base any information on observed facts , , I have NO direct knowledge of foxes released from towns , If they are I dont have a problem with it , they either survive or die , [ by whatever means , road kill must be the biggest factor!? ]

 

It was indeed my recent observation that was confirmed , yet again , no matter how many you take others will find a teritory ,

 

Right another obsevation , ... I belive in my area ,foxes "migrate " from north wales , to wirral areas [ or cheshire ] not that i detect a welsh acsent or wool round their private parts !! [ only joking] !

 

But when heavy snows are in the hills a lot have sheep tick s , are far more sinewy, then the usual ones I cull . [ Am I daft?? ] I just know they are a different breed , but cant prove it ,

 

Years ago [ here we go] , there were a good number of artificial earths on the old estate , [ I can show you the pipes ] but lampers ,****** , and billy diggers , destroyed them [ thesec are NOT true sportsmen in my book ] , I hold my hands up when it was legal I have dug the [ unmentionable now] ! But we all mellow .

 

A lot of the local shooters will remember just how many foxes were at the local refinery , because they were fed on a regular base , after all they are only a wild dog!!

 

Iff the practice of release does go on , then they [ the Fox] must take their chance , a few shots will smarten up most things , ****** too !! , Again its about the right ballance in nature , , Man however is not GOD!! ,

 

I feel Humbled that after only a short time posting and little schooling that my views are asked , I can only tell what I observe , and that can be subjective !!

 

As I have posted on all my forums , My Fat country sausage fingers were not for the keyboard and my spelling is poor , long posts with a single finger hundred s of miles slowwer than my mind is a hamper too , so bear with me , I love the countryside , and all it stands for , but I am willing to welcome the urban fox to learn our ways , just as I am to those who genuinly seek knowledge ,

 

**** takers too I will respond to . for it is not me you humble but yourselves , one reason I chose this forum as it had a lively and level headed members , both young and old ,

 

Forgive this last paragraph , just that " What you see is what you get with me , " just to get things strait ,

 

Thanks for reading my ramble , POW!

[lurcherboy]

You keep posting POW

 

 

 

 

 

LB

[Cranfield]

The local mortality rate of foxes determines the local fox population.

An area will support "X" number of foxes, if they are removed, then "X" number of foxes will move in from adjoining areas.

There is an old saying along the lines of, "shoot a fox and a dozen will come to its funeral".

 

With regard to the RSPCA, or anyone else, releasing urban foxes into the countryside, I have long believed this to be a myth.

Mainly because I have seen no first hand evidence of this, despite knowing lots of fox shooters, being involved with the local Hunts and living for many years within a short van ride from London.

 

A comment on the other topic that entered this thread briefly concerning shooting large bags of pigeons.

I shoot pigeons because I enjoy the sport and to protect the Farmers crops.

Most of what I shoot that is edible, goes to the Game Dealer, my freezer, or is given away, I waste nothing.

The high cost of cartridges necessary to support this activity, is offset by the contribution made by the Game Dealer (or in some cases the Farmer).

If someone wants to only shoot the odd bird for the pot, they will hear no arguments from me.