Legal question

[GJUK]

Harrow.

 

I'm sorry for posting this kind of question, but "he who ask sremain a fool for five minutes he who does not ask, remain a fool forever..."

 

A friend who has recently acquired a permission for shooting (with permission of the owner for use with a shotgun on site) he has invited me to come with him on HIS permission. He does not have a SGC. I do.

 

Legally, can I go shooting with him?

 

Can I let him shoot my shotgun?

 

Do I need to do anything before turning up at the site? Let the police know I'm shooting?

 

Unfortunately, as you guessed. I'm new to this shooting fiasco. I want to do it all properly, hence the question. One would appreciate answers rather than criticism for being a new starter in this hobby/life style.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jon.

[tosspot]

Technically the land owner needs to be aware of and approve your presence aswell as your friend, other than that so long as your friend is under your supervision if using your gun I see no probs

[Doggone]

Unless someone has a certificate they can't be lent a shotgun, only at certain clay grounds with special police dispensation

Andy

 

Just found this to backup what I have just written

 

 

Lending a Shotgun?

 

Home > Departments > Firearms Department > Lending a Shotgun?

 

Not a lot of people know that…… (but they should !)

 

Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act of 1968 states:

 

" A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence."

 

Section 11(6) states:

 

" A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate , use a shot gun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the chief Officer of police for the area in which that place is situated."

 

So…… What does all this mean to me as a game or rough shooter?

 

It means that you can't just lend your shotgun to someone who hasn’t got a certificate - unless you are the occupier of private land, on that land, with you present all the time the non-certificate holder has the gun, or you’re at a clay pigeon layout which has had written permission from the Chief Constable for non-certificate holders to shoot at that time.

 

If you let someone without a certificate use your shotgun in other circumstances, it is likely that you are committing a criminal offence, and you run the risk of losing your certificate and being fined, or worse.

 

Many people believe that if they’ve got permission to shoot over land, they can take someone without a certificate onto that land and let them shoot their shotgun. This is NOT the case.

 

Please, when you are considering lending a shotgun to anyone who doesn’t have a certificate, think of this, and if you have ANY doubt contact the BASC Firearms Department on 01244 573 010. We can help and advise.

 

Andy

Edited December 29, 2008 by Doggone

[webber]

The answer is NO.

 

This question has been covered at length some time ago. Do a search.

 

webber

[tosspot]

Unless I've mis read this GJUK is not asking to lend his shotgun to anyone, merely asking if he can accompany a friend and possibly let him use his gun

[Doggone]

Unless I've mis read this GJUK is not asking to lend his shotgun to anyone, merely asking if he can accompany a friend and possibly let him use his gun

 

 

If you let someone without a certificate use your shotgun in other circumstances, it is likely that you are committing a criminal offence, and you run the risk of losing your certificate and being fined, or worse.

 

Nothing much to misread there

Andy

[tosspot]

In which case i stand corrected

 

confused

 

but corrected

 

NB so without the landowners presence or at a recognised clay ground no non SGC persons can fire a shotgun? even under the direct supervision of a SGC holder?

Edited December 29, 2008 by tosspot

[the sad lad ass kicker]

BULL !!!

you can use a shotgun even if you dont have a SGC, as long as the landowner allows for a shotgun to be used on his land, and that the certified SGC holder is in the presence of the person using it.

Same goes for FAC.

[ROB REYNOLDS UK]

you can only use a shotgun of some body if the lender is the land owner of the land .ie farmer ,keeper..but he has to be by your side at all times this goes for rifles as well ..

[cubix]

Your friend has been give permission to shoot by the landowner but you have not.

 

It's like supervising a learner driver - the licenced person is the one in control. If you are drunk supervising a learner driver then you will lose your licence even if you are not driving.

 

So you need express permission from the landowner to shoot. Then your friend can shoot your shotgun under your supervision.

 

Unless the landowner has said to your friend that he can authorise 3rd parties (i.e. you) to shoot on the land then you will get into a lot of trouble!

 

Permission for a person to shoot rarely extends to them passing it on to other people. The police view you as being the accountable one.

 

Ask the landowner for permission.

[Breastman]

Why did the land owner give someone shooting rights when they don't have the means to shoot!? Did he expect your friend to throw stones at birds/rabbits??

If i were you i'd firstly contact any shooting organisation you may be a part of and ask their advice, and secondly go with your friend to speak with the land owner and you get the permission to shoot their aswell. From a previous discussion about this on here i think as long as the person with the SGC has the permission to shoot this then makes them an 'occupier' of the land which is the most important thing, and then that occupier can have people with him/her who don't have SGC's also shooting (but within their prescence - which effectively means within hearing distance, they do not have to be standing right by you).

 

Mark

[viking]

BULL !!!

you can use a shotgun even if you dont have a SGC, as long as the landowner allows for a shotgun to be used on his land, and that the certified SGC holder is in the presence of the person using it.

Same goes for FAC.

 

BULL!!!? a very bold statment there mate, i think you need to do your home work there,

some one who doesnt hold a sgc can only shoot on land where he is with the land owner and using the land owners shotgun, who must obviously have his own sgc, so in GJUKs case as long as he gets permission to shoot on the land he is ok to shoot it, but he must not let his mate use his gun,

 

lee

[mossy835]

if the farmer says you can shoot on his land then you can,but you can not let you friend use your gun, if he has no licence.unless he owns the land witch he does not.

[mossy835]

BULL!!!? a very bold statment there mate, i think you need to do your home work there,

some one who doesnt hold a sgc can only shoot on land where he is with the land owner and using the land owners shotgun, who must obviously have his own sgc, so in GJUKs case as long as he gets permission to shoot on the land he is ok to shoot it, but he must not let his mate use his gun,

 

lee

 

 

 

[ozzy518]

Some interesting answers, fortunately there are some people on here that are knowledgeable on the current legislation....In short, as stated by some previous members, a non certificate holder may only use a shotgun belonging to and in the presence of the land owner or holder of the shooting rights.( I have deliberately not mentioned Clay shooting grounds to simplify things) The confusion that is caused to some people is the word Occupier in the written legislation. This would appear to be ambiguous and open to interpretation. Is an occupier the owner or someone occupying the land at some specific time eg. someone shooting on it? Whilst this has yet to be legally defined, the general acceptance takes the meaning to be the land owner.

In reply to the original posting I would suggest that he firstly confirms with the landowner that he is aware and happy for him to shoot there, and if still unsure regarding the legislation, to contact his FEO.

[Greenhunter]

Some interesting answers, fortunately there are some people on here that are knowledgeable on the current legislation....In short, as stated by some previous members, a non certificate holder may only use a shotgun belonging to and in the presence of the land owner or holder of the shooting rights.( I have deliberately not mentioned Clay shooting grounds to simplify things) The confusion that is caused to some people is the word Occupier in the written legislation. This would appear to be ambiguous and open to interpretation. Is an occupier the owner or someone occupying the land at some specific time eg. someone shooting on it? Whilst this has yet to be legally defined, the general acceptance takes the meaning to be the land owner.

In reply to the original posting I would suggest that he firstly confirms with the landowner that he is aware and happy for him to shoot there, and if still unsure regarding the legislation, to contact his FEO.

This is exactly what I would have said (probably not as well) but IMO you should definately check it out with your FEO as there seems to be differing views in different counties about the term OCCUPIER.

[jasons gold]

you can only use a shotgun of some body if the lender is the land owner of the land .ie farmer ,keeper..but he has to be by your side at all times this goes for rifles as well ..

 

No these are different in that it is easier to use someones rifle as you ownly have to be within line of sight . Hmmm where did i put those high manification binoculars

[Piebob]

Unless someone has a certificate they can't be lent a shotgun, only at certain clay grounds with special police dispensation

Andy

 

Section 11 (5) of the Firearms Act of 1968 states:

 

" A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, borrow a shotgun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence."

 

So…… What does all this mean to me as a game or rough shooter?

 

It means that you can't just lend your shotgun to someone who hasn’t got a certificate - unless you are the occupier of private land, on that land, with you present all the time the non-certificate holder has the gun

 

You've posted the relevant bits of the Act and somehow drawn the wrong conclusion as posted at the top of your post. Re-read what you've posted. The only grey area is the word "occupier" and this is where you need to check with FEO. In the absence of any other definition, the Home Office Guidance suggests that it is taken to mean anyone who has permission to shoot, hunt, fish over that land. Ozzy518 is incorrect to say that is normally taken to be the landowner.

 

However, it seems that some police areas may have drawn up their own definition and that's why you need to check with FEO.

[Breastman]

As above

 

Mark

[Doggone]

You've posted the relevant bits of the Act and somehow drawn the wrong conclusion as posted at the top of your post. Re-read what you've posted. The only grey area is the word "occupier" and this is where you need to check with FEO. In the absence of any other definition, the Home Office Guidance suggests that it is taken to mean anyone who has permission to shoot, hunt, fish over that land. Ozzy518 is incorrect to say that is normally taken to be the landowner.

 

However, it seems that some police areas may have drawn up their own definition and that's why you need to check with FEO.

 

I have checked with my FEO, who told me in no uncertain terms that my son could not shoot pigeons with my shot gun, next to me in a hide, on land that I shared the shooting rights with 3 others. That is why he applied for a SGC, to stay legal. He was 11 at the time. I also asked him about beaters borrowing guns with no SGC on beaters day. Also totally illegal. Can you give us the link to your Home Office Guidance which contradicts what I say, if not I would suggest it should be you that speaks to your FEO, before giving out grey advice that can land fellow members in serious trouble.

Andy

[Ferret Master]

It all comes down to interpretation of the occupier.

 

My FEO told me that Wiltshire police see the occupier as someone with shooting permission.

 

FM

[ozzy518]

Section 11(5) of the Firearms Act 1968 provides the legislation which is the subject of this thread. As I earlier posted the term occupier has yet to be legally defined, however, the Firearms Consultative Committee recommended that the provisions of Section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This does indeed state that an occupier "Includes any person having any right of hunting shooting , fishing or taking game or fish. It is suggested that each chief of police may wish to make use of this definition."

What is important to realise is that the above is a suggestion and recommendation, and not law. The Manual of guidance states that," On some occasions though where the status of a certificate holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the chief officer may need to consider seeking the advice of Counsel."

In short, it is up to each individual chief of police as to whether he uses the Countryside and Wildlife Act definition, and it is my belief that the issue of the definition of the term "Occupier" will not be resolved until some poor shooter gets prosecuted for allowing someone else without a SGC, to use his gun. It will then be for the court to make a judgement thereby forming a precedent which is Case Law, that will then clarify what an occupier is. As much as I'd like to be famous, I'm not sure I want to be the one on court. Any takers anyone?

Edited December 30, 2008 by ozzy518

[Doggone]

Section 11(5) of the Firearms Act 1968 provides the legislation which is the subject of this thread. As I earlier posted the term occupier has yet to be legally defined, however, the Firearms Consultative Committee recommended that the provisions of Section 27 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 be adopted. This does indeed state that an occupier "Includes any person having any right of hunting shooting , fishing or taking game or fish. It is suggested that each chief of police may wish to make use of this definition."

What is important to realise is that the above is a suggestion and recommendation, and not law. The Manual of guidance states that," On some occasions though where the status of a certificate holder acting as an occupier is an issue, the chief officer may need to consider seeking the advice of Counsel."

In short, it is up to each individual chief of police as to whether he uses the Countryside and Wildlife Act definition, and it is my belief that the issue of the definition of the term "Occupier" will not be resolved until some poor shooter gets prosecuted for allowing someone else without a SGC, to use his gun. It will then be for the court to make a judgement thereby forming a precedent which is Case Law, that will then clarify what an occupier is. As much as I'd like to be famous, I'm not sure I want to be the one on court. Any takers anyone?

 

Apologies, to Piebob was just coming back on to give the link to what you have just quoted. I was told exactly what I qoted by my FEO, so I will be taking it up with him in the near future.

Andy http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio...pdf?view=Binary

Edited December 30, 2008 by Doggone

[Piebob]

It ain't going to happen in my opinion, especially with the HO Guidance on the definition of occupier. The police have had almost 3 decades to test this in court if they so wished. Given that they haven't done so is very telling. They stand a 50/50 chance of winning at best. And in any event, what public interest would be served?

 

Wouldn't it be so much better, though, if all these definitions and different laws were tidied up?

[ozzy518]

Wouldn't it make life so much easier? What use is the manual of guidance when it says , "well, we think that you might like to do this, but its up to you really!!!"